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  1. #201
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    Default Re: EFB options

    nice technique there nancy, thanks for sharing.

    you may have already posted this, sorry if i missed it, but when was your last treatment and how long since you've seen efb in your apiary?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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  3. #202
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    there isn't any real protocol here in the u.s.

    for a lot of europe efb is a notifiable condition:

    Attachment 49483

    from:

    http://www.oie.int/eng/EMERGING_INFE...rCharriere.pdf

    also from that link:

    Attachment 49485

    efb cases have dropped by over half in switzerland since implementing mandatory notification and destruction by fire.
    What I meant was the amount of antibiotics that are applied; we do 3 treatments, I think they do a different amount. Maybe Nancy knows? I couldn’t find that particular response on bee-l in the archives. Deb
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  4. #203
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    Default Re: EFB options

    understood deb.

    what is also missing in my searches so far is an assessment of combining shook swarming with antibiotic treatment like nancy and westernwilson are reporting.

    if i recall westernwilson has had a rebloom of efb this year. not sure about nancy.

    i was surprised to see such a high rate of recurrence (23% - 31% of apiaries) even after the destruction of infected colonies in the examples dr. stainton gave in the video.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #204
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    Default Re: EFB options

    I have seen a few sources promoting extending the treatments. If there are still existing sources of potential reinfection that would be my inclination. I burned the frames of the worst infected colonies and I continued treatments last summer till I saw no more compromised larvae occurring. Things looked OK by fall close out; I was quite prepared though to see it return this spring but so far no sign. Maybe I go lucky with having a type of EFB that is less virulent and persistent than what some of you are dealing with.

    My findings were complicated by the 4 colonies that died in March - April that could have well died from suffocation: At least there is no other obvious reason that I could see for the dieouts. I have them sealed and stored and am not brave (or foolish) enough to put bees in them this year.

    I hope that the prodding of Squarepeg and others will get some better typing of the different strains of active EFB here on this continent. With such widely differring experience amongst competent beekeepers it seems to me that EFB has found some new tricks. If that is the case, denial is not our friend.
    Frank

  6. #205
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    I used Oxytet mixed with a precisely-measured amount of powdered sugar (both ingredients measured by weight, to formulate the correct per-hive dose.)

    Then I used a cinnamon sugar type of shaker to sprinkle the dose in each box. I used a shield placed over the center of the box (covering multiple frames) to keep the sugar/oxytet mixture from being placed on any frame with open brood. It is toxic/lethal to open brood and that was the last thing I wanted to do to the few surviving larvae. I also sprinkled it along the (short) edges of the box at the end of the frames.

    Previously I had gone through each hive and examined each frame and placed the frames with brood in them in the center of each box; if there was an uneven number of frames the extra one was placed in the lower box. Each frame was marked with a symbol so when I looked down at the tops of the frames I could see exactly which ones needed to be shielded. This made the treatment fast and accurate. I unstacked it each hive, leaving the lowest brood box in place; sprinkled that one and topped with the next one up, and so on. The really sick ones had only one frame with brood, but since I treated every colony in the yard, even the asymptomatic ones, some of then had brood in two or three boxes.

    What I used for a shield was the right-angled piece of Lexan that normally covers the slot in my BeeMax -style top feeders.

    Here are pictures of me doing it: Shaking the mix on Attachment 49487 Top view of box after applying mix Attachment 49489

    Nancy
    Thanks for sharing. This is a really good idea, but it's also incredibly time consuming.

    I am still not convinced that getting some of the terra-pro or powdered sugar mixture between the frames will kill a lot of the uncapped brood.

    Anyone here happen to have a link or a name of the source that states that terra-pro kills uncapped brood?

  7. #206
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I have seen a few sources promoting extending the treatments.
    Any chance you can name or share the sources regarding treatment you refer to?

  8. #207
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Any chance you can name or share the sources regarding treatment you refer to?
    It was individuals, not controlled research; possibly on Bee_L forum. Some sources seem inclined make recommendations strongly in line with minimizing the development of resistance and others the emphasis is on ending the infection decisively with resistance factor being secondary.

    In the long perspective not using antibiotics at all, might be the wisest, but it will not be an easy position to sell. Especially so if EFB is on the verge of a large scale breakout.
    Frank

  9. #208
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    It was individuals, not controlled research; possibly on Bee_L forum. Some sources seem inclined make recommendations strongly in line with minimizing the development of resistance and others the emphasis is on ending the infection decisively with resistance factor being secondary.
    I know on bee-l that Randy was the one that said to treat the whole yard or at least all the hives around the infected hive at one point.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  10. #209
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    Default Re: EFB options

    There is a current discussion going on on Bee L now.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  11. #210
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Is there any general consensus about the outcome of capped swarm queen cells that were formed during a EFB outbreak?

    I currently have a number of colonies that are in the process of hatching out capped swarm cells that were formed during an EFB outbreak that hit the entire apiary.

    If the capped cells produce low quality queens, or queens that cannot mate, how exactly do I go about requeening the colonies?

  12. #211
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    Default Re: EFB options

    @Squarepeg,

    I had the EFB in the Spring (and then extending into summer, because I dithered about treating) of 2017. What I had before EFB was a fire in my yard in early March, that got within inches of the stacks, and killed a couple of them outright , and immediately) from the smoke of burning plastic insulation. That, I believe, was the initiating stressor, followed by a poor, wet spring, with inconsistent pollen availability late into the season. (Some-time since then I happened upon an old post of mine asking if people who do Walt Wright's anti-swarming/nectar management manipulations for several years start to see an erratic brood pattern on the frames. Answer: no. In reality what I was seeing was the first stages of unrecognized EFB infection causing the poor pattern. What I was seeing was an ample amount of eggs, but very little capped brood. Now that sort of thing would immediately draw my attention

    I had one colony that looked the same way in the early summer of 2018, but it tested negative, repeatedly, which was very puzzling. It was small and weak, and eventually died. I removed it it early on and in the end did not treat it, nor any other colony. All of them looked strong and healthy throughout the summer, so I was hopeful. But then three very large colonies, including two that had never shown symptoms, and both of "less-affected" queen line, died over the fall/winter. Not mite-caused (not obvious virus, either), not starvation, just a sudden, flat-out crash. That was the most depressing of all, since it was mysterious. What was different last year was a huge, late, influx of SHB, not resulting in "sliming" just hundreds of and hundreds of them driving the bees crazy.

    Oddly, the one queen line that was initially most affected (all daughter queens expressed disease symptoms in the first year), has turned out to survive with more colonies. Of the three other queen lines the one with second-most affected individual survived with a single remaining hive. One of least-affected lines died completely because of whatever happened late last year. And the Never-showed any signs queen line suffered losses last year, and is now down to only a single hive, too.

    This is partly my fault because I deliberately did not make any increase at all last year, not wanting any more sick hives, even though none except the small weak one showed any sign of disease. I figure the surviving string ones would be OK for another year, never dreaming what would happen over the winter.

    This weekend I am planning to make some splits.

    @Username:

    It was not at all time consuming to arrange the frames in the way I described. By the time I was ready to treat, the brood areas had become somewhat disorganized, so I just arranged them and marked them so all the remaining active brood frames were centralized in the boxes. If the frame had open brood it got a mark, If it had open and affected brood it got a different mark. (And those frames have since all been removed from service for destruction.) The marks were colored dots. Shaking the Oxy/sugar mix took only 1-2 minutes per box per dose. What did take some time was carefully measuring each colonies individual dose into a little plastic tub. I am glad I did that because I then knew that each colony got exactly its full dose, not more, but most importantly, not less. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I did not see a re-bloom in the second year.

    Regarding the rebloom: some of mt colonies got double or single shook swarms in addition to treatment, but some did not. I was struggling - and not really grappling - with the equipment replacement issues at the outset. In hindsight, I should have simply replaced everything immediately by doing double shook swarms. In the end by doing it in dribs and drabs I didn't buy fewer replacements, anyway. I'd still have the same mountain of contaminated gear, but perhaps fewer losses, and quicker.

    Having failed to find a source for the correct radiation (15 KiloGrays, not 10) I have been reduced to letting time pass on the equipment. I am planning to try an acetic acid treatment in a few weeks and then regard everything as safe for reuse after 24 months off-hive..

    I started this with nearly 20 colonies, I now have enough "contaminated" base/full set of boxes & supers/lids/accessory equipment sets for more than 60 colonies. In other words three times as many sets as I ever had hives in the first place. And I am down to only six living colonies right now. My basic set per hive is: solid BB, screen BB, lower shim, six 10-frame deeps, one medium pollen box, upper shim, quilt box, vent shim inner/cover, Snelgrove board, escape board, wood framed queen-excluder, entrance reducer, robbing screens (upper and lower entrance), top-feeder box with plastic cover, wooden telescoping cover and about 80 frames per colony.

    EFB sucks, and costs a fortune to deal with

    Nancy

  13. #212
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Reporting back. 4th treatment applied today. All but 2 hives are cured of EFB. 1 of those 2 is only showing mild symptoms. The one with serious symptoms seems to have regressed, unfortunately. I gave it an extra dose, and sprinkled terra-pro all over all the nurse bees and all the frames liberally.

    What have I learned since my last inspection?

    1. Dusting all of the frames and the nurse bees is highly effective at knocking down EFB. Both hives that I coated with a liberal application of OTC terra-pro have either fully recovered, or are practically symptom free. One hive that I simply did the "end bar" application method seems to have had a rebloom.

    2. There's apparently little to no noticable toxicity to the brood from terra-pro. I checked the same hive that I covered with 2 heaping tablespoons of terra-pro, and all the previously uncapped brood that was exposed to the terra-pro was capped and healthy. Moreover, the entire hive was nearly free of efb symptoms.

    3. Queen cells that are capped during an EFB outbreak are a hit or miss. 2/4 colonies that formed queen cells during the efb outbreak survived mating flights and are now laying eggs. The other 2 are now queenless.

  14. #213
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    Default Re: EFB options

    One of the interesting possibilities with EFB is that contaminated equipment can potentially be stored for 2 years after which it should be pathogen free. I wonder if treatment with high intensity UV light would shorten the storage interval? I store unused bee equipment in my greenhouse with summer temps in the 120 to 130 range. This is not hot enough to melt combs, but is highly likely it kills some organisms that could otherwise be a problem.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  15. #214
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Talked to my neighbor today who lives down the road from me.

    He lost 50% of his hives so far from EFB. Doesn't seem interested in OTC, I've offered. He tried requeening his hives a couple of weeks ago when I started treating, apparently they still all died.

    I respect his decision not to treat with OTC, he's not obligated to treat, but he has one hive that's getting robbed because it's totally empty.

    I politely asked him to close the hive, but he didn't seem to be convinced EFB is going to spread into my colonies from robbing.

    I hope he's right.

    Glad I treated.

  16. #215
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    Default Re: EFB options

    username, has the efb in your neighbor's hives been confirmed by testing?

    if so you can hope all you want to but the spreading of the bacteria into neighboring hives by robbing is pretty much a certainty.

    if this is happening i would definitely let your state inspector know.

    ticks me off just hearing about it.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #216
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    username, has the efb in your neighbor's hives been confirmed by testing?

    if so you can hope all you want to but the spreading of the bacteria into neighboring hives by robbing is pretty much a certainty.

    if this is happening i would definitely let your state inspector know.

    ticks me off just hearing about it.

    This beekeeper told me he's going to bring new hives from his other locations to replace the ones that died from EFB. So that empty hive that's being robbed will hopefully be gone?

    The state inspector knows, and hasn't done anything. There's only so much that I can do. When he was here I told him about my neighbor.

    This beekeeper didn't seem to connect the dots that losing half his hives in 2 weeks from EFB is anything to be concerned with.

    Looks like there's 1 hive that's totally empty and being robbed, the others are at least alive and have entrance reducers.
    Last edited by username00101; 06-28-2019 at 09:27 AM.

  18. #217
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    if this is happening i would definitely let your state inspector know.

    ticks me off just hearing about it.
    but as of now up here there isn't anything the inspector's can do that I'm aware of, it's not a burnable disease, nor can they force you to use antibiotics, best I know they can inspect it and clean their hive tools and tell you yup you have it. Now if your in NY they can't even notify any one in the area, and won't even announce what towns are affected. lovely
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  19. #218
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    Default Re: EFB options



    big time.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #219
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    but as of now up here there isn't anything the inspector's can do that I'm aware of, it's not a burnable disease, nor can they force you to use antibiotics, best I know they can inspect it and clean their hive tools and tell you yup you have it. Now if your in NY they can't even notify any one in the area, and won't even announce what towns are affected. lovely
    Same here.

  21. #220
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Despite my best efforts, 1 of the hives cannot seem to rid itself of EFB. I've given them less space, and added a 2nd feeder, and a very generous dose of OTC.

    All the other hives are cured.

    My neighbor informed me that he open feeds dead outs and extracted comb.

    Of course, I have many more hives than he does, and they're less than a quarter mile from my house. Doesn't seem to be interested in cooperating with EFB outbreak control (like not allowing robbing or open feeding).

    *shaking my head*

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