new package bees aggression - Page 2
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    1,149

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    I had the same thing happen with a package I installed a couple of years ago. They were mean and nasty anytime I went anywhere near them. Eight weeks later after the queen had replaced them all that hive was as docile as can be and is probably my calmest hive.
    Zone 6B

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    GregV; Where are you getting the information that Russian Honey Bees have AMM heritage? The USDA information is that their heritage is probably Carniolan or Caucasian. I see no AMM traits in the 24 colonies I have here at my home. Their temper is on a par with the Italian queens I had that came from Georgia, if conditions are right they can be worked with no smoke, if smoke is needed a light smoking is all that is required.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,694

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Alms View Post
    The queens were dark, but they look pretty much like the past carniolan queens I have received except all three were smaller for sure. Everything about these packages is different. I have received a virgin queen one time that looked like these. ( I concluded she was a virgin as she was hardly bigger than a worker and her abdomen was not enlarged as it should be. I also found her outside 4 days later on the back of the hive with a ball of bees around. I was actually expecting to see that as I assumed she would be taking her mating flights. It was April and I know there were few to no drones flying and she ended up being a very poor layer). Sorry, side story. Now I am a bit worried the line of these queens, I have always been very happy with the carniolans. Sara
    I have recently heard this, packages having virgins not muted queens. That might be it.
    Proverbs 16:24

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,474

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    GregV; Where are you getting the information that Russian Honey Bees have AMM heritage?.
    Should I remind you the history of honey bee origination in Far-Eastern Russia?
    And how the Far-Eastern bee later ended up in the US and the end result of that import project is now marketed as Russian bee?

    Daughter queens were raised from promising P queens imported from Russia (Rinderer et al., 1999b).
    Queens were collected within 200 km2 area north and west of Vladivostok (13154’E 437’N).
    Source:
    Resistance to the parasitic mite Varroa destructor in honey bees from far-eastern Russia
    Thomas Rinderer, Lilia De Guzman, G. Delatte, J. Stelzer, V. Lancaster, V. Kuznetsov, L. Beaman, R. Watts, J. Harris
    Whatever is sold as Russian in the US now is ..... I don't know what it is.
    Some mutilated mutt it is, where the recombination of deeply buried traits can and will popup randomly.
    It almost feels as if "everyone and their brother too" all of a sudden are selling the "Russians".
    Our local reseller is selling "Russians" too and would not say what they really are and from what source. Just - Russians.

    So - be ready for AMM traits popping up there and here (or maybe AHB traits - who knows anymore?)
    With random hybridization everything is possible and nothing is to be ruled out.
    Last edited by GregV; 04-24-2019 at 10:07 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Southwest Indiana
    Posts
    14

    Default

    That banana theory is so inconsistent that I don't buy it.
    I am not sold on the idea that alarm pharmone and bananas have any similaritys.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    All of these are described as smelling like bananas are one of many chemicals in bananas and are also in alarm pheromone.

    Ingredients in common between alarm pheromone and bananas:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Heptanone
    " 2-Heptanone has also been found to be excreted by honey bees when they bite small pests within the colony such as wax moth larvae and Varroa mites. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...larm_pheromone
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_acetate
    "The alarm pheromones emitted by the Koschevnikov gland of honey bees contain butyl acetate."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoamyl_acetate
    "Isoamyl acetate occurs naturally in the banana plant[5] and it is also produced synthetically.[6]
    Isoamyl acetate is released by a honey bee's sting apparatus where it serves as a pheromone beacon to attract other bees and provoke them to sting.[7]"

    I have to admit I have not seen bees upset by bananas, but the alarm pheromone certainly smells like artificial banana flavoring.

    Chemicals in Alarm Pheromone:
    isopentyl acetate (IPA), butyl acetate, 1-hexanol, n-butanol, 1-octanol, hexyl acetate, octyl acetate, n-pentyl acetate and 2-nonanol

    Perhaps it only works in the right proportions of the right combinations. Perhaps some bees are more sensitive to some of these and others are not. AHB comes to mind...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Red Wing, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    49

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Visually, they are all the same - Carni or Russians.
    It is the behavior differences - typical Russians will harass you (not a good backyard bee).
    These talks about stressing bees by smoke - a non-sense, if you wanna keep the Russians.
    Smoke them much, smoke them often.
    Or don't keep em.

    From my sources, the AMM keepers says the random AMM hybrids are the worst cases (the real Russians have lots of AMM blood in them - and so we could be getting the worst of the worst cases - AMM/AFB hybrids; who knows).
    Should be very hardy though.
    Hmmm. Hardy versus yelps and welts. I also have an over wintered hive that went into winter calm and this spring are very defensive. When I cracked the top they were as runny as any hive I have had, and I knew I had trouble. Packed with bees though, all 4 mediums full of eggs and brood. Smoked them hard, did not make them calm down at all. Sara

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Red Wing, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    49

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    All of these are described as smelling like bananas are one of many chemicals in bananas and are also in alarm pheromone.

    Ingredients in common between alarm pheromone and bananas:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Heptanone
    " 2-Heptanone has also been found to be excreted by honey bees when they bite small pests within the colony such as wax moth larvae and Varroa mites. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...larm_pheromone
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_acetate
    "The alarm pheromones emitted by the Koschevnikov gland of honey bees contain butyl acetate."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoamyl_acetate
    "Isoamyl acetate occurs naturally in the banana plant[5] and it is also produced synthetically.[6]
    Isoamyl acetate is released by a honey bee's sting apparatus where it serves as a pheromone beacon to attract other bees and provoke them to sting.[7]"

    I have to admit I have not seen bees upset by bananas, but the alarm pheromone certainly smells like artificial banana flavoring.

    Chemicals in Alarm Pheromone:
    isopentyl acetate (IPA), butyl acetate, 1-hexanol, n-butanol, 1-octanol, hexyl acetate, octyl acetate, n-pentyl acetate and 2-nonanol

    Perhaps it only works in the right proportions of the right combinations. Perhaps some bees are more sensitive to some of these and others are not. AHB comes to mind...
    I do not eat bananas, but I was wondering, do you actually smell bananas when bees sting? I have a pretty sensitive sniffer, have not detected this. Interesting. Sara

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    3,474

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Alms View Post
    Hmmm. Hardy versus yelps and welts........Sara
    How about:

    With random hybridization everything is possible and nothing is to be ruled out.
    That is the US reality.

    But your bees could be just pissed off for any good, old reason just as well.
    In the heat of the moment, so to speak.

    Yesterday, I got fully geared to work my nasty bees (finally checked if time to split them yet).
    Surprise - not as nasty anymore.
    Maybe they were having a good day.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    53,922

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    >I do not eat bananas, but I was wondering, do you actually smell bananas when bees sting?

    Not usually, but if there are a lot of upset bees I smell it in the air.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    2,465

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Alms View Post
    Smoked them hard, did not make them calm down at all. Sara
    Not all smoke is created equal. Having a senior moment as to who, but in a last years thread about hot hives it was suggested to put some slum to the smoke. Tried a waxed paper soda cup someone generously donated to the the side of the road, added pieces to the smoker. Big difference in the results.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
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    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    >Smoked them hard

    That is not the way to calm them down. Smoke them the right amount with cool smoke.

    http://bushfarms.com/beessmoke.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Algood, TN, USA
    Posts
    108

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Do you use essential oils by chance? Last year my sister started using essential oils for herself. Just after she did, every time we worked her bees or our bees she would get stung a lot. She stopped putting it on herself on the days we were working bees and it kept happening. My husband kept questioning her and figured out she was using lavender essential oil with her clothes in the dryer. She stopped using it and the stinging quit immediately. Just another option as to why your bees were so testy!

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Red Wing, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    49

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    I am pretty conservative with smoke, just a puff at the bottom and a puff the inner board usually is enough. I did use more with this hive, but you are right, more is not better in this case. Thanks. Sara

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Red Wing, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    49

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by SueBeeTN View Post
    Do you use essential oils by chance? Last year my sister started using essential oils for herself. Just after she did, every time we worked her bees or our bees she would get stung a lot. She stopped putting it on herself on the days we were working bees and it kept happening. My husband kept questioning her and figured out she was using lavender essential oil with her clothes in the dryer. She stopped using it and the stinging quit immediately. Just another option as to why your bees were so testy!
    No, I do not use essential oils or any fragrances.

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Red Wing, Minnesota, USA
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    49

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Smoked them hard

    That is not the way to calm them down. Smoke them the right amount with cool smoke.

    http://bushfarms.com/beessmoke.htm
    Sorry, a puff on the bottom and a puff on the inner cover I meant to say.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    2,465

    Default Re: new package bees aggression

    A couple of trips were a light smoke gets me hit, they will get more.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

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