scorch vs burn for efb
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  1. #1
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    Default scorch vs burn for efb

    Had a hive last summer that was diagnosed with efb. Treated and it was booming going into winter. Died early on even though mites were under control. So i'm definitely going to burn the frames to be safe. Should i just burn inner cover and bottom board and boxes as well? Or can i take a torch to them and burn them a little? I for some reason cannot find the answer to this or the process.
    Terrence

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    To my knowledge, these methods are effective at killing American Foul Brood.

    Burn it.

    Irradiate it. (Gama radiation)

    Dipping in wax at a temperature of 320 degrees F for 10 minutes. https://afb.org.nz/wax-dipping/ I have some concerns and doubts about this method as it is not done in the USA.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Duplicate reply. Please delete.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Scraping with a hive tool and pressure washing removes as many spores of AFB as does torching the wooden ware, so it should do the same with EFB.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  6. #5
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    To my knowledge, these methods are effective at killing American Foul Brood.

    Burn it.

    Irradiate it. (Gama radiation)

    Dipping in wax at a temperature of 320 degrees F for 10 minutes. https://afb.org.nz/wax-dipping/ I have some concerns and doubts about this method as it is not done in the USA.
    I'm talking efb. As my s2000 ray gun is broken I think i will have to pass on gama radiation. question is on scorching. obviously burning it will get rid of it.
    Terrence

  7. #6
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    Scraping with a hive tool and pressure washing removes as many spores of AFB as does torching the wooden ware, so it should do the same with EFB.
    I hadn't heard of this. was there a study? any additive in the wash?
    Terrence

  8. #7
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Completely different set of rules for efb compared to afb. efb is not spore forming like afb is. The AFB in the spore form take temperatures higher than boiling water to kill them. efb non spore forming bacteria is much easier to kill and are more like common food born stomach ailments. ( Botulism excepted as I believe it is also spore forming ) The problem is that comb and honey are destroyed at those temperatures. Rough time figures is that honey containing efb can remain active for approx. 7 months and bee bread/pollen cells containing the bacteria can incubate it for 18 months or so. The comb material is the prime source of reinfection and of course the stomach contents of infected bees.

    Scorching seems to do the trick on bottom boards, hive bodies, covers etc., but I would not bet my life that water later seeping into cracks would be 100% free of the organism if it were to be flushed out and consumed. I am waiting to see if it has been effective for me. I have not in my readings seen it written that thorough scorching is less than effective sanitization.

    I looked at tearing foundations out of frames and giving the frames a hot lye or cholorine bath but decided it was not worth the trouble. Also not easily done without exposing a lot of material for recontamination. Hard to keep bees away from the process.

    It is unfortunate that both diseases of brood are given such similar sounding names; it causes a lot of confusion.
    Frank

  9. #8
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Here's what I would do with a single entire hive in the case of EFB: burn it. For a $100 bucks or so you can replace it with brand new gear and never have any worries. (If not burning, store it away from bee-access for a few years to see how things shake out this year in your other colonies.)

    But truthfully unless this was your only hive in that yard, you have much more equipment (and colonies) at risk than you probably realize. You will know about that within the next two months as EFB often appears in May/June.

    So I would set it aside for the time being. Buy new equipment to replace what you take out of service and see where you are in a few months' time. I have read that 18-24 months of storage will be effective in killing EFB bacteria. (Unlike AFB, it does not form long-lasting resting spores that are infective.) If you want to do something about it in the meantime, consider getting it irradiated. You have missed the annual opportunity to get that done in NJ, but there may be other programs or facilities. It is not expensive (if done as part of group thing), just a bit time consuming to arrange. You need 15 KiloGrays of gamma radiation, which is higher than what kills AFB.

    Be especially vigilant this spring. I hope there was no chance that this hive was robbed out before you discovered it was a dead-out. Do whatever it takes to absolutely prevent robbing in the whole yard this summer (screens always in place for the whole season), and practice obsessive anti cross-contamination protocols (clean tools & gloves for each hive, no equipment shared, nor frames or bees moved among hives, nor splits) to prevent horizontal transmission between hives. This is a HUGE PITA - believe me. But the alternative is to keep battling and battling it. After a year (or two) with no signs of EFB, then you could back to normal beekeeping practices.

    Knowing what I know now, I wished I had simply destroyed the equipment when I first discovered it in my yard. I have a mountain of possibly contaminated equipment and have spent much more $$$ than buying all new once would have cost me.

    I don't know if you sell (or give away) nucs, but I would not consider that safe until you know your yard is well and truly free of it. Too big a risk of passing on the misery.

    Nancy

  10. #9
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Here's what I would do with a single entire hive in the case of EFB: burn it. For a $100 bucks or so you can replace it with brand new gear and never have any worries. (If not burning, store it away from bee-access for a few years to see how things shake out this year in your other colonies.)

    But truthfully unless this was your only hive in that yard, you have much more equipment (and colonies) at risk than you probably realize. You will know about that within the next two months as EFB often appears in May/June.

    So I would set it aside for the time being. Buy new equipment to replace what you take out of service and see where you are in a few months' time. I have read that 18-24 months of storage will be effective in killing EFB bacteria. (Unlike AFB, it does not form long-lasting resting spores that are infective.) If you want to do something about it in the meantime, consider getting it irradiated. You have missed the annual opportunity to get that done in NJ, but there may be other programs or facilities. It is not expensive (if done as part of group thing), just a bit time consuming to arrange. You need 15 KiloGrays of gamma radiation, which is higher than what kills AFB.

    Be especially vigilant this spring. I hope there was no chance that this hive was robbed out before you discovered it was a dead-out. Do whatever it takes to absolutely prevent robbing in the whole yard this summer (screens always in place for the whole season), and practice obsessive anti cross-contamination protocols (clean tools & gloves for each hive, no equipment shared, nor frames or bees moved among hives, nor splits) to prevent horizontal transmission between hives. This is a HUGE PITA - believe me. But the alternative is to keep battling and battling it. After a year (or two) with no signs of EFB, then you could back to normal beekeeping practices.

    Knowing what I know now, I wished I had simply destroyed the equipment when I first discovered it in my yard. I have a mountain of possibly contaminated equipment and have spent much more $$$ than buying all new once would have cost me.

    I don't know if you sell (or give away) nucs, but I would not consider that safe until you know your yard is well and truly free of it. Too big a risk of passing on the misery.

    Nancy

  11. #10
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    I have had Efb in nearly 80 colonies at once. I still use the same equipment and no longer have issues with it. Genetics is the main reason.
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  12. #11
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    Had a hive last summer that was diagnosed with efb. Treated and it was booming going into winter. Died early on even though mites were under control. So i'm definitely going to burn the frames to be safe. Should i just burn inner cover and bottom board and boxes as well? Or can i take a torch to them and burn them a little? I for some reason cannot find the answer to this or the process.
    Your wasting money. EFB does not require such draconian methds. Some Vinegar fumigation would do the job nicely I am told but I haven't had EFB in years.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    I would suggest that we should think it a possibility at least, that the efb of yore may have changed its habits a bit. There have been some posts here and there that indicates that some of the 20 or so variations are a lot harder to discourage.

    I do hope that Vance and TBllc's observations are 100% correct! I am keeping myself mentally prepared for a worse case scenario though.
    Frank

  14. #13
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    oy. seems we're split 50/50. While the other 3 hives at this yard showed no evidence of efb at all I made sure i used plastic gloves inspecting this hive and actually left a hive tool on it just for that inspection. I did however loose one other hive at the yard this winter that i expected to survive. Something else could have happened to this problem hive but i'm asking this question because I've had hives there for 4 years and traditionally they have not survived. Its possible that I've just had an issue in the equipment that i have not spotted before last year or that the bees managed to deal with before i caught it. I did seal the hive in December after they died. I transported it yesterday and this 3 deep hive had over 120 pounds of syrup and nectar honey in it. Never tried to burn honey but can't imagine its pleasant. So they definitely didn't starve! I'm going to bag and trash the frames and then burn the boxes. I'll keep the top cover which i just made last year. Probably scorch it to be safe but it really wasn't in contact with the bees. I appreciate the information. Yes might be over reacting but i was not able to get the medication last year except for the black market and really don't want to go through trying to get a vfd again.
    Terrence

  15. #14
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Equipment is burned for AFB, Not EFB. I have had good luck with Mann Lake Terra Patties. EFB is a stress disease. Medicate, feed, requeen.
    Charlie wanted to dump this bucket on me and I first refused. I thought he just wanted me to dispose of his toxics. But he finally wore me down and I took it. Now I have saved about four colonies with it, very bad cases. And in the meanwhile it became hard to buy without government BS. So for once I am up on Charlie with something.

    Last edited by odfrank; 03-31-2019 at 01:04 PM.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Agree. the genetic component in all the brood diseases from AFB on down is not taught as it should be! I think TM patties are a key developer of antibiotic resistant diseases. Sunshine and warmth is usually the cure. So we load rookies up with screened bottom boards and other stressors.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Kaizen; The study I read about pressure washing versus scorching woodenware for AFB spores was done in Canada years ago. The result was that total spores found after treatment by each method were within 3% of each other.

    Woodenware should be the least likely cause of reinfection from EFB, combs and honey being the most probable cause. I would do shook swarms onto new frames of foundation while feeding OTC in sugar.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  18. #17
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    Had a hive last summer that was diagnosed with efb.
    how was the diagnosis made kaizen?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #18
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    I'm talking efb. As my s2000 ray gun is broken I think i will have to pass on gama radiation. question is on scorching. obviously burning it will get rid of it.
    Sorry. I totally missed the efb. For some reason I thought read afb. My mistake.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Equipment is burned for AFB, Not EFB. I have had good luck with Mann Lake Terra Patties. EFB is a stress disease. Medicate, feed, requeen.
    Charlie wanted to dump this bucket on me and I first refused. I thought he just wanted me to dispose of his toxics. But he finally wore me down and I took it. Now I have saved about four colonies with it, very bad cases. And in the meanwhile it became hard to buy without government BS. So for once I am up on Charlie with something.

    My generosity knows no bounds!

  21. #20
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    Default Re: scorch vs burn for efb

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    how was the diagnosis made kaizen?
    I think i had a thread here last year and everyone agreed it looked like efb. I followed it up with a chemical test that was positive.
    Terrence

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