Response to a presentation

[kzimmerman]

[...] I decided to do a TBH. I can make them with frames. [...]

??

I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.

[little_john]

I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.

Could well be - but if so, then by doing this, he'd be turning a TBH into a non-TBH !

LJ

[kzimmerman]

I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.

Could well be - but if so, then by doing this, he'd be turning a TBH into a non-TBH !

LJ

Maybe, but we are arguing semantics to some degree. In the end it does not matter as long as it works. If he’s a beginner than I suspect a sharp learning curve is in his future. If it works, we will call it the Kenyan langstroth monstrosity!

[little_john]

Maybe, but we are arguing semantics to some degree. In the end it does not matter as long as it works. If he’s a beginner than I suspect a sharp learning curve is in his future. If it works, we will call it the Kenyan langstroth monstrosity!

I don't understand - EITHER a hive is a Top Bar Hive, OR a Framed Hive (or a fixed comb hive, of course) - it can't be both ! How is this 'semantics' (when the term is being used in a somewhat dismissive/academic sense) ?

There are intermediate states, of course, such as 'Part-Frame' Hives, but these are not being suggested here.

The above terminology relates to the method of comb attachment, which then has a direct bearing upon the appropriate beekeeping procedures, methods of feeding, ability to super, honey extraction, and so on ...

Perhaps the confusion lies in the false assumption that Top Bar Hives are - of necessity - always Horizontal Hives, rather than being a descriptor of the method of comb attachment ?
LJ

[AHudd]

So, when frames are added to a top bar hive it becomes something else, what type of modification could be implemented to render a TBH no longer a horizontal hive and still keep the name TBH? I'm having trouble picturing this.

Alex

[nickhefferan]

Perhaps the confusion lies in the false assumption that Top Bar Hives are - of necessity - always Horizontal Hives, rather than being a descriptor of the method of comb attachment ?
LJ

You're on to something there LJ.

The big deal with KTBH is the fact they're horizontal instead of vertical, but they also happen to not use frames.
But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
Definitely a misnomer, but that's how it's been.

Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
Warre has it's own section, but it's supposed to be a top bar hive as well. Hmm...

[GregV]

But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
....

Granted, the "greater beekeeping world" expands far far beyond North America - horizontal hive of the last 100 years meant "horizontal hive with movable frames".

Among movable comb designs, TBH is not at all your default horizontal hive.

[GregV]

....
Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
..

Indeed.
We requested the change as the TBH is very a limited niche in much bigger universe of the horizontal hives.

[ruthiesbees]

Indeed.
We requested the change as the TBH is very a limited niche in much bigger universe of the horizontal hives.

"WE" most certainly did not request the name change. You did.

[Oldtimer]

Semantics i know, but Greg i think your hives have less in common with long horizontal TBH's and more in common with Langstroths.

It's neither one or the other i know, but it is certainly not a long horizontal top bar hive.

[GregV]

Semantics i know, but Greg i think your hives have less in common with long horizontal TBH's and more in common with Langstroths.

It's neither one or the other i know, but it is certainly not a long horizontal top bar hive.

Not so.
My hives have most of the commonality with the Layens horizontal hive (invented in France, 1865).
There is a variety of heirloom Old World horizontal hives originating in 1800s/1900s - none are simple top bar based (that I know of).

I, in fact, operate against any pure rules and use a mix of both frames and simple top bars however I see fit best - so I am both top-bar AND frame-based operator.
Here is a typical full top-bar comb recently pictured.
I got many of these in rotation as we speak.
These are easier/cheaper/faster to make than the full frames, work great, and have only few draw-backs compared to full frames.
20190323_135748.jpg

This being said, ALL movable comb horizontal hives are managed about the same - single-level comb management style.

[GregV]

"WE" most certainly did not request the name change. You did.

Few of us did - so to make the sub-forum more inclusive for people of many different walks of life, those who enjoy horizontal hive beekeeping (TBH included).

[Oldtimer]

I, in fact, operate against any pure rules and use a mix of both frames and simple top bars however I see fit best - so I am both top-bar AND frame-based operator.

OK i'll concede. You are a frame guy AND a top bar guy. Kinda.

[ruthiesbees]

Few of us did - so to make the sub-forum more inclusive for people of many different walks of life, those who enjoy horizontal hive beekeeping (TBH included).

I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...two-sub-forums

It is certainly up to the site moderators to decide, but I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives. And I think that combining them into one subforum can lead to confusion for newbees that are looking for help.

[GregV]

I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...two-sub-forums

It is certainly up to the site moderators to decide, but I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives. And I think that combining them into one subforum can lead to confusion for newbees that are looking for help.

Let me just say - I represented few others.

Regarding:
"I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives"

Let us discuss.
Let me open a new topic - should be interesting talk.

[GregV]

OK i'll concede. You are a frame guy AND a top bar guy. Kinda.

Sure am.
Kinda.
I don't operate by any supposed rules.

Well, OK, here is a rule - everything I do must be dirt-cheap or free.

[Oldtimer]

I don't got no rules. And that's my rule.

[little_john]

I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...two-sub-forums

Well I (for one) may not have featured there - but did discuss this idea with Greg off-forum. If memory serves, I initially favoured the creation of additional sub-forums, but then recognised that this would create additional work for mods. A wider inclusion within existing sub-forums promised to be more acceptable, so I supported that idea (and still do).

[...] I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives.

Couldn't agree more - which is the point I was making a few posts ago - but - this isn't a perfect situation, and previous to this forum change, 'alternative hive designs' really didn't have a home. As there wasn't too much existing traffic in the Top Bar sub-forum, this seemed the best available option for housing such non-conventional designs.
LJ

[little_john]

The big deal with KTBH is the fact they're horizontal instead of vertical, but they also happen to not use frames.
But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
Definitely a misnomer, but that's how it's been.

That's exactly right. Somebody mentions TBH in a post, and many folk automatically assume that it must be a KTBH which is being referred to.

Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
Warre has it's own section, but it's supposed to be a top bar hive as well. Hmm...

Now Warre - that's an odd one. It can be a removable Top Bar Hive or a Top-Bar fixed-comb hive (depending on how they're being managed). With minor (and common) alterations it can be run as a framed hive, and there's even one variant (the Russian 'Alpine' Hive) which is usually seen as a framed hive - but really isn't, as the wire 'frames' are actually incorporated into the brood combs themselves, with the combs invariably being attached to the box sides - so in practice the wire frames become comb reinforcements. The honey combs however, tend not to get attached to the box sides, and so are more like removable frames ... So part of the hive is fixed-comb Top Bar, the other part is Framed ! LOL
No wonder Warre hives have their own sub-forum
LJ

[little_john]

So, when frames are added to a top bar hive it becomes something else, what type of modification could be implemented to render a TBH no longer a horizontal hive and still keep the name TBH? I'm having trouble picturing this.

Alex

Well - the classic Warre Hive is an example of a vertical Top Bar hive. As I mentioned in a previous post, several Warre variants have been developed over the years to retain the vertical 'chimney' format, but at least some of those are no longer (strictly speaking) Top Bar Hives - in the sense that their combs are attached other than to just stand-alone Top Bars.

There have been modifications, principally to straight-sided Top Bar Hives (the so-called 'Tanzanian' format), in which 'half-length side bars' have been attached to the Top Bars in order to prevent comb attachment to the box walls (which tends to occur towards the top only). I believe these are called 'open frames', with their users still maintaining (rightly or wrongly - not my problem) that these are Top Bar Hives.

Hope the above clarifies, rather than mudding the waters even further.
LJ