Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Alvaton, KY, USA
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    8

    Default Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    I treated my two hives in August 5 treatments, 4 days apart in mid August. Then on December 23, 2018 I treated again. I DID NOT do an alcohol wash after the treatment in August, and did not open the hives in December. I chose that day because the temperature rose to about 50 degrees. I just inspected the hives and there is still a lot of honey, several dead bees, and very few live bees, no brood. I did not do an alcohol wash thinking the OA would be effective. are there any reports of OA failure? I burned 2 grams of OA over 3 minutes and closed up the hives for 10 minutes. there was vapor coming out at the top of the hives. I thought I was good>

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    what was your wash before mid aug treatment?

  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Alvaton, KY, USA
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    8

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Well- there's the rub- didn't do one. The hives were strong and I was going to treat anyway. No excuse thought it was not necessary due to need to treat for winter bees. i'm afraid I've learned a hard lesson.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lumpkin County, GA
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    853

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    FWIW, I stopped using OA vaporization in the fall. The hives are never broodless in the fall which renders the treatment ineffective. I only use OAV in the winter. My fall treatment involves a thymol based mite treatment which gets the mites under the cappings.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    4,748

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    I think there is too long a gap after the August treatment; time enough for reinfestation from other hives and survivors of your own treatments. I found that I had to continue for several more rounds ( 4 vaporizations to a round) before the mite levels stayed low. With your later autumn you had an even longer period for mite levels to rebound to levels bad for the production of long living wintering bees.

    Waiting too late to commence treatment is fatal and I think early treatment without followup can also lose the battle to the mites.
    Frank

  7. #6
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Alvaton, KY, USA
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    8

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    That was going to be my next question: if the mite numbers were high in August and didn't come down, what would you treat with? That's another mistake I made I used MAQS and it go hotter than predicted and I killed the queens. Often doesn't get cool enough here in August to use MAQS. What do you use?

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Lumpkin County, GA
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    853

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    I use ApiLife Var in August. It requires 3 treatments, 7 days apart. When the wafers are first put in the hive, it causes the bees to beard like crazy.
    Treat1_0818.jpg

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
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    3,760

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Frank's answer is spot on to your situation. August to start, then again in September, and again in October. Single dose at Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had the State sample my hives for mites. Checked 25% of the hives with an alcohol wash. 0 mites. Healthy bees. OAV works if used correctly.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Milford, Michigan USA
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    294

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    I agree with JWP. I generally do weekly treatments from the second week in August, (that is my last honey harvest) through October.

    I do a treatment just before adding supers the first of May. I usually harvest honey the end of June and do one treatment while the supers are off. I have never used anything other than OAV.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Lumpkin County, GA
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    853

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    I'm curious as to how many hives you are managing and OAV treating? I will be at 35 hives this season.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
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    3,760

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Eric, not sure who you are asking. I brought all 16 of my hives through winter, only to lose one to starvation this week. I will be at 20 production hives and 20 nucs for sale by June. I use a ProVap110 so it does not take long.
    Last edited by JWPalmer; 03-14-2019 at 05:21 PM.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Every time you put some oav crystals on a mite they die of that I am 100% sure, where we might fail is getting those crystals on all of the mites. I am not sure an OAV treatment will get the mites that are under the bees scales feeding on the bees fat belly so getting all the mites is always going to be a problem and as far as I am concerned can only be taken care of with many treatments. This may be a problem with many beekeepers using the old varrox type of pan system but with the new type of vaporizer treatment can be done very quickly and easily. As I have yet to see any negative effect of these treatments on queens bees and brood there is no reason that hives could be treated once a week throughout the year, I do mange to keep my 40 odd colonies going from year to year with losses below 10% overwinter with about 12 treatments per colony per year. Lets face it if you want OAV to be as effective as Apivar just treat your hives every day for 42 days and I am sure you will get the same results.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Seattle WA
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    1,154

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    To also take another point of view, Yes, there are OAV failures. There are also failures with MAQS and Apivar, and every other treatment available. Usually, it is user error with any treatment. I also feel re-infestation from collapsing hives is a real issue in some areas. If your hive drops hundreds of mites when you vaporize, it clearly is working. What I find is most important is to know the pattern of mite buildup in your area. To figure out the pattern, you need to do mite testing several times in the summer and spring. In Kentucky, your pattern is way off of mine here in the Seattle area. I can get away with 3 or 4 treatments of OAV in early August and 1 in December. There are not a lot of hives in my area. I am suburban or urban for miles in every direction and there are few beekeepers. Your area may have lots of beekeepers or feral hives in the woods. A simple mite test to figure out the pattern is to vaporize on the first day of each month. Check your mite drop 3 days later with the sticky board you will have put in right after vaporizing. You might be surprised at the results. After the second year, you will have pretty good data to work with.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I think there is too long a gap after the August treatment; time enough for reinfestation from other hives and survivors of your own treatments..
    I'll copy a real example of what re infestation from other hives can do to your hives, and this lady counted every mite on the sticky boards and I went a made sure she was only counting the mites. I do have to check with her and see if they are still alive. we had done an alcohol wash end of july early aug. with one mite in the wash.

    Formic Pro treatments
    8/16, 1 strip each hive
    8/30, 1 strip each hive (too hot to apply before this date)
    9/23 - 9/28 sticky boards
    Pink hive = 188, avg 37.6 per 24 hrs
    Blue hive = 133, avg 26 per 24 hrs
    White hive = 86, avg 17.2 per 24 hrs

    10/14 - 10/18 sticky boards on for 75 hrs
    Pink = 524, avg 167.68 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 320, avg 102 per 24 hrs
    White = 17, avg 5 per 24 hrs

    10/19 ProVap110, 1 g per box, sticky boards inserted
    10/22 count per 3 days
    Pink = 2,439, avg 813 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 1,269, avg 423 per 24 hrs
    White = 844, avg 281 per 24 hrs

    10/22 ProVap, no sticky boards

    10/26 ProVap, sticky boards inserted
    10/29, 74 hour count
    Pink = 1,082, avg 351 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 1,499, avg 486 per 24 hrs
    White = 44, avg 14 per 24 hrs

    10/30 ProVap, sticky boards inserted
    11/2, 3 day count
    Pink = 1128, avg 376 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 830, avg 277 per 24 hrs
    White = 13, avg 4 per 24 hrs

    11/2 ProVap, sticky boards inserted
    11/5, 3 day count
    Pink = 516, avg 172 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 455, avg 152 per 24 hrs
    White = no sticky board inserted

    1/6, 24 hour count with no treatment
    Pink = 79
    Blue = 36

    11/7 ProVap, sticky boards inserted
    11/10, 3 day count
    Pink = 572, avg 191 per 24 hrs
    Blue = 181, avg 60 per 24 hrs
    White = no sticky board inserted

    she did a later treatment but I can't find the numbers, we then sent a sample of her bees to be checked, no mites, no nosema, low virus's, and good weight of the bees.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Seattle WA
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    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Those are some of the worst numbers I have ever seen! Starting with the 10/14 numbers, the pink hive had over 6,300 mites killed in a single month.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
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    5,232

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    Those are some of the worst numbers I have ever seen! Starting with the 10/14 numbers, the pink hive had over 6,300 mites killed in a single month.
    luckily the nearby hives that were collapsing ran out of bees and mites she hopes. now just to expand on it, the lady had 4 hives, the neighbor had 5 but couldn't determine how many were actually alive or had been alive. through it all she only found a few bees with DW, so we figure since she was treating every 3 or 4 days she was killing the mites as they were coming in. The other thing that was interest two of the hives mite count really didn't go up much the other two hives were doing all the robbing.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
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    1,407

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    The foundation of low mites counts are mite resistant bees. Far too many mite susceptible bees out there propped up by treating. Treat, but select for mite resistance as well.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Milford, Michigan USA
    Posts
    294

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    The foundation of low mites counts are mite resistant bees. Far too many mite susceptible bees out there propped up by treating. Treat, but select for mite resistance as well.
    I check and count mites before August to determine which of my hives control mites best, those I split from if I do splits but from August on I just treat. I want healthy winter bees and I expect robbing by my bees. If you discover high mite counts late in the season it is too late to treat for the winter bees in Michigan (opinion).

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    8,108

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericweller View Post
    I'm curious as to how many hives you are managing and OAV treating? I will be at 35 hives this season.
    I used OAV for three years. 700 production hives. First two years in November when broodless. Following spring the varroa load was enormous. Did the 3 vapes a week apart that summer. Mite count of 20 before. Mite counts of 20 a week after last vape. Why bother

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,720

    Default Re: Are there vaporized Oxalic acid failures?

    OA is no different to any other miticides as it kills by contact, as does amitraz or most other chemical concoctions. The difference is that the OA remains in the colony for about 3 days whereas the other stuff stays in the colony for 42 days so go ahead and treat your colony with OA every 3 days for 42 days and I believe you will have the same efficacy as amitraz or similar miticides. Now it is quite possible to get away with much fewer OA treatments but really one must compare apples to apples. A few years back it was quite a hassle to treat with OAV but not anymore and the price is good and there is not much chance of the critters becoming resistant to OAV but we cannot say the same for amitraz.

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