Can't stop the EFB. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Branman View Post
    Random question, do you have a bunch of pooled water in or around old equipment that the bees drink off of?
    if you are implying that they get afb or efb from the water, I have had hives near milk barns where the bees were pests drinking the water where the cows had gone to the bathroom, and not had any afb or efb in that area. now if a hive in the area had efb or afb, might have been a different result.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Branman View Post
    Random question, do you have a bunch of pooled water in or around old equipment that the bees drink off of?
    I definitely don't, no. I have a lot of work into my bee boxes, stained and sealed to match the garden per the Mrs. request. As such, any unused equipment is stored dry in the garage.

    Also, again, any hives that showed ANY sign of EFB were scorched, wax cut out and burned and frames scorched as well (I'm foundationless).

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
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    7,793

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    I had EFB several years ago in a minor way but haven't seen it since. Same equipment so I think I have more or less tolerant stock. At least that is my hope I guess. I have not used an antibiotic in years Though I wish I had ratholed a few pounds of tylosin. It really worked.

  5. #44
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    I have been referred to articles on sanitizing comb of EFB bacteria by exposure to the fumes of glacial acetic acid. The suggestion is to stack supers of extracted frames enclosed in tightly sealed large plastic bags with a dish of the pure acetic acid in each stack. Any experience on this?

    In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped. Was wondering if Formic acid vapor would be similarly effective. It is readily available through beekeeping suppliers and perhaps through feed stores as it is sometimes used to wilt haylage. I have seen many empty barrels with that label on them.

    I would like to avoid loseing all my drawn super frames but also dont want to waste time and effort with partial measures and eventually have to bite that bullet anyways.
    Frank

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Murray County, Georgia
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    346

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Have tried. Frames quickly infected otherwise clear colonies.

  7. #46
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    Apr 2016
    Location
    Rutland County, Vermont,USA
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    2,145

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    This thread reminded me to pick up a couple EFB test kits while I was getting other supplies at Betterbee yesterday. Everyone should have some on hand just in case so you can more quickly determine a course of action and hopefully contain it. J

  8. #47
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim B View Post
    Have tried. Frames quickly infected otherwise clear colonies.
    Tim were those brood frames or honey super frames?
    Frank

  9. #48
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivej View Post
    This thread reminded me to pick up a couple EFB test kits while I was getting other supplies at Betterbee yesterday. Everyone should have some on hand just in case so you can more quickly determine a course of action and hopefully contain it. J
    Yes for sure!!! I think I can reconstruct my trail of clues back to where it was only in one overwintered nuc that was slow to get going in spring.

    I have to thank Flowerplanter's posts drawing attention to EFB, then Enjambres sharing her experience has been a great focus on the issue, that I think in many cases has slipped through the cracks undiagnosed.
    Frank

  10. #49
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    Apr 2009
    Location
    Murray County, Georgia
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    346

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Brood combs. Don't remember if they had pollen. They probably did.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    1,858

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Here is a NZ bit on sterilizing boxes in a wax dipper
    https://afb.org.nz/wax-dipping/

  12. #51
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    Apr 2017
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
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    336

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    My garden torch probably does the job just fine: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00282LP..._C1dICbWXJYTMA

    These things are gnarly! I can turn a box jet black in about 20 seconds while burning away any propolis and wax left in the box. It's the fastest and most economical way I have found.

    I'd love to have a giant wax dipper, but I barely have space as it is - and only having a couple dozen hives, it's never made sense for me.

  13. #52
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Yes to that torch. I have something similar that is good for the hive bodies and bottom boards etc., but find that a small hand held propane torch is good for separately doing the frame rest areas of the box without eroding the edges too much.

    A 45 gallon barrel with the end cut out and a wood fire is good for doing the metal queen excluders. Cleaning up a whole hive and all contents without contaminating anything else or exposing trash to bees is quite a logistics problem!
    Frank

  14. #53
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    Apr 2017
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    Santa Cruz, CA
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Yes to that torch. I have something similar that is good for the hive bodies and bottom boards etc., but find that a small hand held propane torch is good for separately doing the frame rest areas of the box without eroding the edges too much.

    A 45 gallon barrel with the end cut out and a wood fire is good for doing the metal queen excluders. Cleaning up a whole hive and all contents without contaminating anything else or exposing trash to bees is quite a logistics problem!
    I find the big torch at a much lower heat on the edges melts everything quite nice. I also have metal frame rests that I heat up to make sure nothing is left untouched. This keeps the wood from burning away underneath.

    And luckily I don't use any queen excluders so I've never needed to clean them, but it's good to know I can just burn them up if needed - much like my boxes.

  15. #54
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    and only having a couple dozen hives, it's never made sense for me.
    Oh for sure, point was some one with a dipping tank might be a good bit closer and cheaper then some were with a gamma what ever for many people.

    BTW got to ask, your avatar... long or short fins?

  16. #55
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    53,775

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    >In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped.

    Probably because it freezes at 62 F (16.6 C)... does it ever get warm enough to thaw glacial acetic acid in Canada?

    There does seem to be more EFB lately than we saw 20 years ago, but I also think a lot of what people are calling EFB is actually not. I think it's some kind of idiopathic brood disease. Meaning we don't know the cause. It looks somewhat similar to EFB but not exactly. I think some of the supply places have EFB tests.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  17. #56
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    [QUOTE=msl;1705247]Oh for sure, point was some one with a dipping tank might be a good bit closer and cheaper then some were with a gamma what ever for many people.

    QUOTE]

    The dipping tank would be nice but pricey and somewhat hazardous. Really, I think flame scorching of boxes, tops, bottoms etc., is relatively easy and effective. The valuable and pricey part is what to do with drawn comb frames. They are not even easy to dispose of without creating further contamination and more work than it is worth.
    Frank

  18. #57
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    Apr 2009
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    Murray County, Georgia
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped.

    Probably because it freezes at 62 F (16.6 C)... does it ever get warm enough to thaw glacial acetic acid in Canada?

    There does seem to be more EFB lately than we saw 20 years ago, but I also think a lot of what people are calling EFB is actually not. I think it's some kind of idiopathic brood disease. Meaning we don't know the cause. It looks somewhat similar to EFB but not exactly. I think some of the supply places have EFB tests.

    We see it somewhat regularly. We have tested some and about 3/4 of what I visually identify tests positive responds to antibiotics, returns regularly and infects other colonies when frames are spread. About half or more of those who show it in the late winter or summer can be treated with otc, recover and produce the next season. About half the time it will show up again in those colonies. If i stopped using otc preventatively I figure we would need to shut down 20% of our colonies by mid april. The "shook swarm method" works about half the time with these colonies. For me it is probably either use otc or destroy infected colonies. I suppose with a little more work I could start enough on new equipment to replace the infected ones each year. May be the same situation as folks with afb which I have never seen.

  19. #58
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Tim B;

    A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.

    I have asked a few times and no takers about whether contaminated bees and comb is the only natural repository of the bacteria or whether it can be in soil and ditches in the yard and surroundings. I have not come up with anything written about it either.

    Thoughts, anyone?
    Frank

  20. #59
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    Apr 2009
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    Murray County, Georgia
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    346

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Tim B;

    A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.

    I have asked a few times and no takers about whether contaminated bees and comb is the only natural repository of the bacteria or whether it can be in soil and ditches in the yard and surroundings. I have not come up with anything written about it either.

    Thoughts, anyone?
    Retail information on how long the bacteria persists on wood, wax, pollen and what other potential reservoirs doesn't seem to be available. I saw some research from the early 20th century that suggested that it could live 18 months on wax but that's all I have been able to find. There is also not a lot of information on what will kill it. For instance, would be spraying clorox on frames and hives be enough? The researchers need to be pushed on this because in the absence of preventative otc treatments this is going to become a serious problem for sideliners who have trouble getting someone to write prescriptions.

  21. #60
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    Apr 2017
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    Santa Cruz, CA
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    336

    Default Re: Can't stop the EFB.

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Tim B;

    A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.

    I have asked a few times and no takers about whether contaminated bees and comb is the only natural repository of the bacteria or whether it can be in soil and ditches in the yard and surroundings. I have not come up with anything written about it either.

    Thoughts, anyone?
    Since research shows the bacteria can lay dormant for many months, it's safe to assume it can also do so in other environments, even soil. I agree we need much more research on what can kill the different stages of the bacteria to help prevent the spread. OTC only treats the problem in hopes the bees can manage it after that - but does not "cure" the issue - being levels of EFB in the hive.

    I run foundationless so I've also resorted to scorching the frames after cutting out the wax to be melted or burned. I have an old deep that has become my "burning box". I'll put 5 frames in the box and use my garden torch to blacken in, then slide another one over and repeat. These torches are serious business and can turn wood bright red within seconds.

    Also, I'm finding the bees really take to the burned wood very well...probably something about them preferring hollowed out trees, most likely by fire.

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