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Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

19K views 74 replies 13 participants last post by  DrakeJ 
#1 ·
First time posting and after I started reading, thought maybe I should start beekeeping with the Langstroth hives then work into the Horizontal Hives. However, living in NE Minnesota where the we have had low temps > -30 without wind chill and talking to local beekeepers about poor overwintering rates (around 40%), I wanted to build an insulated hive based on a cross of the langstroth and Lazutin style hive except with insulation. The walls are made out of two 1/2" plywood sandwiching 2" of EPS insulation. The roof is covered by a sheet of FRP panel. I Built custom double deep frames langstroth width and depth to avoid the brood having to cross any potential barriers between stacked vertical frames in the winter. Also, I built the cover deep enough to accommodate 3 medium supers over top of the double deep brood frames in the event I want to run two colonies out of one hive. Additionally, I can use the space in the lid for moisture absorption and blankets/insulation in the winter. The hive holds 36 double deep frames equivalent to 72 langstroth deeps. I think extraction from a double deep frame will be difficult to impossible from those frames. Anyway, here are a few photos of the hive and a few questions I'm looking for answers for. Constructive criticism and advise are welcomed openly.

1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?

2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?

3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?

4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?

Thanks for the input.

Chad

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#2 ·
1. Just remove the Double Deep frames and put in the Deep frames from the Nuc.

2. The bees will just expand sideways into the Double Deeps.

3. Crush and Strain. Can just cut off bottom half of frame.

4. Double Deep frames will be very heavy when filled with honey. You would be best to run 3 Colonies in the hive. You only need 10 Double Deeps (equivalent to 20 Deep frames) per Colony. So you could partition it into 3 sections with 2 well fitting follower boards.
(I just used standard Deep frames will my 3 x Long Hive.)
 
#3 ·
Welcome to BeeSource Docsmaple!
The hive looks great!

answering out of order:

4) my one concern with the design is the distance between frame and sides, and top of the frame and the wooden cover. Do you have the 3/8" beespace there, or is it bigger/smaller?
you also can also use a cover cloth above the top bars if the distance is smaller or larger than a beespace between the top bars and the hard cover.
You definitely want to keep a beespace if there are any gaps, otherwise you'll be fighting against burr comb and propolis.
(if you don't know what beespace is: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html )

1)I would say put the frames in the hive and let them build into the double-deep frames over time. you can either hang a partial frame (sans "ears") onto the bottoms of the existing nuc-frames with zip ties.
Or just stick 'em in there as is and rotate out the standard frames after the brood is moved onto the double-deep frames. I wouldn't shake them out, just use the frames in one way or the other.

2) to get them to build on the double deep frames, stick them in between the deep frames "checkerboarding" and move the standard deep frames out of the brood nest over time, eventually removing them totally.

3) not sure on extraction, that isn't my wheelhouse. GregV's method of sideways mounting the deep frames could work well, you don't end up with big pieces of wood they need to vertically traverse in winter, and then you can break the frames in half to extract them.

hope that helps!

-Nick
 
#4 ·
Wow!
Great work and thanks for sharing.
I need to study your pics.
I am really liking this latest trend of people hanging up the various horizontal designs live.
Great exchange.
I can just see it - beekeeping Renaissance is actually happening.

Docsmaple - please do share your approximate location in your profile; this makes a huge contextual difference.
Yes - I see you are in MN, just it gets forgotten later.
 
#5 ·
Hi Chad,

For a first build I think this is extremely good - in particular your decision to use sandwiched insulation is very wise.

Thoughts - in no particular order ...

You've created a hive with a huge volume, and so I'd recommend you make a moveable partition board (often called a 'follower' board - although I've never figured out why) in order that you can initially reduce the volume whilst the colony is relatively small.

Double-deep honey combs will indeed be very heavy, and so at minimum you may need to use a s/s 'frame-grabber' (or whatever they're called) to lift them out. Finger-tips have their limits !

Another approach would be to use single deep frames in the honey area, with a lugless dummy deep frame tie-wrapped underneath. I use this technique to mix different depth frames in the same hive, to prevent wild comb being wastefully drawn under the shallower ones. It works well. I'll post pics if needed.

Removing single deeps after the doubles have been laid-up ? Two ways of doing this:
If you have one or more combs filled with nectar/honey - pull the single deep brood, ensure the queen isn't on it, then place that frame behind those honey combs.

The second method (which I prefer) is to use that moveable partition board. If it's made close-fitting at the top and sides, but with a 2"-3" gap at the bottom, it will still act as a 'thermal curtain' and any combs you wish to be cleared can simply be placed behind it. Leave the bees on, but again, ensure the queen isn't riding that comb. Indeed - such a board is very useful, as the queen will never cross over it, and so such boards will function as a very effective queen excluder.

I find myself agreeing with Greg again - it's really good to see enthusiasm for such new Hive Designs ...

Two queries - what's your thinking behind having so many entrances to this hive ... and, what's the purpose of the two shelf brackets on the hive front ? Just curious - not being critical. :)
LJ
 
#6 ·
.... it's really good to see enthusiasm for such new Hive Designs ...

LJ
LJ, I think this forum reformation thing is working for the better.
In a short order people started coming out of woodwork with some neat projects.
Now I got some itch!

Been thinking to do a trial on Lazutin-sized frame too.
But too many trials lined up - unsure can do it all.
Wife will move me out to the garage.

I too have few comments to do - but need to get the head wrapped around it just yet.
 
#8 ·
Welcome to Bee Source.

The bees will probably build off the bottom of the regular deep frames, to match the depth of your double deep frames, so you may not have to rotate them out (regular deep frames). I've had swarms do that when they were in extra deep swam traps and it took me a while to take the traps down and bring them home. I put them into two deep boxes. When I moved the swarms to regular hives, I removed frames from the bottom of the two deeps, then put the "extended" frames with the comb off the bottoms in the top deep with no frames beneath them. Later I cut the extra comb off the bottoms and put it into regular frames with rubber bands.

The point being, you would have to be careful manipulating the frames with the extra comb off the bottom, but you might not have to be in a rush to change the nuc, regular deep frames, out of your hive.

Nice looking hive too.
 
#10 · (Edited)
1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?

2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?

3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?

4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?

Thanks for the input.

Chad
1) As others have said - just directly put in the nuc frames as-is (use that Lang compatibility you just built-in). What I would do - I would zip additional blank Lang frames - just hanging under. Bees will eventually build the hanging blanks IF done correctly (should keep them compressed).
Dump the remaining bees right into the hive. Set the nuc box inside in the opposite end and call it a day - the straggles will just move to the frames at their own pace. Retrieve the nuc box later at your convenience.

Again - take advantage of such huge volume you just created.
That is what you mean by building a Lazutin hive - you got space - use it.

2) If you hang additional frames by zips - they will get utilized - here you go - you have make-shift Lasutin frames.
Be sure to keep follower boards to keep the bees reduced and not letting them grow sideways - eventually they will build down.
You can use the dummy board hangers if the weather is still cold (per LJ's advice); but if you install the nuc in warm enough weather - just save yourself extra hassle and do the blank frames at once. The follower boards/some insulation on top should suffice.

3) Extraction is a custom project in such setup. You can still try supering. It will be very hard to have them go up into a honey super if you try (I have the same issue - they just would not go up - because they have no need). One idea is this - in the honey section use doubled-Lang frames connected for easy separation - you can easily split them apart and extract. OR use triple medium Langs - zip them up. The same idea.

As for me - am not concerned much with extraction of my large frames - they are brood and resources only use. I will cut and strain them as a way to rotate out the older/poor combs - have to do it anyway. Also I harvest perga out of the brood frames - again, comb is destroyed.

Being custom is a minus in the extraction department - hence I insist on Lang compatibility of my equipment - why more hassles?

4) Heavy and bulky. But if no need to move - a perfect rig. If space not an issue - have a row of these and enjoy.
I would think through how to move it if really have to - without injuring yourself. Should be convenient way to two people.
Holding it by one hand on the each end is a poor idea and a way to injure yourself (like a chest by the swinging side handles - better than nothing - but poor ergo).
I do these instead:
Grass


Extras:
- keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
- you can easily keep very, very feisty bees as you hardly need to get in - a winner hands down in my book (mite resistance often comes along with defensiveness - so need to deal with them)
- this will make a great resource hive as any long hive (but must be sure to handle the compatibility somehow - moving Lang/Dadants frames in and out)
- keeping nucs in these does not even require divider boards; you just keep them separated by empty space - 1-2 feet apart works fine. Use follower boards and drop some freely overhanging burlap/fabric to keep them kind of contained. They mind their own business and do not cross over for as long as they are small. Handily, you already have multiple-entrances - a perfect setup for a multi-unit.

Here are useful links (non-English - but those who see, will see plenty of useful detail):
https://apidomiki.ru/vladimirskiie_uli
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC34H0XfatTNbJl4fL3WOHtg
 
#26 · (Edited)
1) As others have said - just directly put in the nuc frames as-is (use that Lang compatibility you just built-in). What I would do - I would zip additional blank Lang frames - just hanging under. Bees will eventually build the hanging blanks IF done correctly (should keep them compressed).
Dump the remaining bees right into the hive. Set the nuc box inside in the opposite end and call it a day - the straggles will just move to the frames at their own pace. Retrieve the nuc box later at your convenience.

Again - take advantage of such huge volume you just created.
That is what you mean by building a Lazutin hive - you got space - use it.

2) If you hang additional frames by zips - they will get utilized - here you go - you have make-shift Lasutin frames.
Be sure to keep follower boards to keep the bees reduced and not letting them grow sideways - eventually they will build down.
You can use the dummy board hangers if the weather is still cold (per LJ's advice); but if you install the nuc in warm enough weather - just save yourself extra hassle and do the blank frames at once. The follower boards/some insulation on top should suffice.

3) Extraction is a custom project in such setup. You can still try supering. It will be very hard to have them go up into a honey super if you try (I have the same issue - they just would not go up - because they have no need). One idea is this - in the honey section use doubled-Lang frames connected for easy separation - you can easily split them apart and extract. OR use triple medium Langs - zip them up. The same idea.

As for me - am not concerned much with extraction of my large frames - they are brood and resources only use. I will cut and strain them as a way to rotate out the older/poor combs - have to do it anyway. Also I harvest perga out of the brood frames - again, comb is destroyed.

Being custom is a minus in the extraction department - hence I insist on Lang compatibility of my equipment - why more hassles?

4) Heavy and bulky. But if no need to move - a perfect rig. If space not an issue - have a row of these and enjoy.
I would think through how to move it if really have to - without injuring yourself. Should be convenient way to two people.
Holding it by one hand on the each end is a poor idea and a way to injure yourself (like a chest by the swinging side handles - better than nothing - but poor ergo).
I do these instead:
View attachment 46349

Extras:
- keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
- you can easily keep very, very feisty bees as you hardly need to get in - a winner hands down in my book (mite resistance often comes along with defensiveness - so need to deal with them)
- this will make a great resource hive as any long hive (but must be sure to handle the compatibility somehow - moving Lang/Dadants frames in and out)
- keeping nucs in these does not even require divider boards; you just keep them separated by empty space - 1-2 feet apart works fine. Use follower boards and drop some freely overhanging burlap/fabric to keep them kind of contained. They mind their own business and do not cross over for as long as they are small. Handily, you already have multiple-entrances - a perfect setup for a multi-unit.

Here are useful links (non-English - but those who see, will see plenty of useful detail):
https://apidomiki.ru/vladimirskiie_uli
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC34H0XfatTNbJl4fL3WOHtg
I am also transferring a nuc into a deep horizontal hive so when you say 'set the nuc box in the other end and retrieve it later' do I put a follower board between the box and the frames and let the straggler bees go under the board or do I leave everything just open.

I have read that the empty space behind the follower board is supposed to be filled with frames or the bees will build on the upper cover in a possibly willy nilly fashion. I have watched some of those Russian videos and in one it looked like they just let the bees go under the board and out another entrance if they liked. They did not seem concerned that there were a few bees in the empty frames space.

I am thinking of making those dummy frames that Dr. Sharashkin suggested to transfer the langstroth to layens deep, or could I just set the frames at the back of the new hive, leaning up against one another, until they build on the new, or do I need them to be hanging.
 
#11 ·
#12 ·
Thanks to all who commented. It is much appreciated. There is a lot of information that i've garnered from the comments. Thank you all.

Multiple people have commented on using zip ties and combining two langstroth deeps with the ears cut off the bottom frame. I have yet to see an extractor, but hope someday to grow to the size to need one. Does a radial extractor require the frame to have ears?

nickhefferean
4) my one concern with the design is the distance between frame and sides, and top of the frame and the wooden cover. Do you have the 3/8" beespace there, or is it bigger/smaller?
I do have bee space all around the frames, including the top where there are pieces of plywood. The idea is that the cover can be opened but the entire hive is not disturbed and depending on whether there are multiple hives in the box, I can pull a particular plywood "lid" off and work just in that area without causing problems for the entire hive.

LJ
Removing single deeps after the doubles have been laid-up ? Two ways of doing this:
If you have one or more combs filled with nectar/honey - pull the single deep brood, ensure the queen isn't on it, then place that frame behind those honey combs.

The second method (which I prefer) is to use that moveable partition board. If it's made close-fitting at the top and sides, but with a 2"-3" gap at the bottom, it will still act as a 'thermal curtain' and any combs you wish to be cleared can simply be placed behind it. Leave the bees on, but again, ensure the queen isn't riding that comb. Indeed - such a board is very useful, as the queen will never cross over it, and so such boards will function as a very effective queen excluder.
I really like these ideas and use of the follower/divider boards. I do have a few boards made up that fit completely tight on four sides to allow for multiple colonies in the hive but also with follower boards that are short on the bottom. I read somewhere that hives are less likely to swarm if they can see under the follower board and realize there is a larger area to build as the year progresses if I don't expand the brood area quickly enough.

As far as all the entrances, it gives me options for over wintering multiple colonies, air exchange, etc.

The angle brackets on the corner are to hold the roof. It is over centered and quite heavy, hence the piano hinge for the roof.

GregV
The entrances (let me only guess) - influence of the "Vladimirsky" hive (Lazutin variant)?
I wish I knew who Vladimirsky was at the time of the build. I put them in the hive box for options moving forward. I thought this might be able to hold multiple hives and was hoping not to be limited by my lack of forethought when building.

Extras:
- keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
I'm hoping to be minimally invasive as I learn how to have bees and understand them. I do have a standard Langstroth frame and these are actually an experiment on over wintering with some forethought as to uses of the hive box moving forward.
 
#15 ·
LJ
Another approach would be to use single deep frames in the honey area, with a lugless dummy deep frame tie-wrapped underneath. I use this technique to mix different depth frames in the same hive, to prevent wild comb being wastefully drawn under the shallower ones. It works well. I'll post pics if needed.
Would you post some pics please. Thank you

Chad
 
#16 ·
Hi Chad

Ok - firstly - this is the reason 'why':



This wasteful use of effort (boxes of the stuff !) comes about because I run two different frame depths here: one 8.5" (deep), the other 12" (extra-deep). I also have around thirty 5.5" (shallow) frames which are sometimes used in an emergency - so - I eventually got fed up with this situation and came up with the following ...

This is a part completed prototype using - as you can see - a frame with thin plywood sides.



... and in use:



It's a very good method for making deep 'dummies', but for a working batch of 3" dummies, I decided instead to make them from solid wood, somewhere around 22 - 25mm thick. This is a shot of one, cable-tied beneath a deep frame, next to an extra-deep for comparison:



The thinner (2mm ?) cable-ties used there are far more suitable for this job than the standard-sized ties shown in the previous photograph.

And this is the rig I use to fit them:



.. which consists of a tall(ish) frame rest, onto which the target frame is hung while a block is tie-wrapped beneath it. Bees can stay on the frame if needs be, and the tying operation takes around 20-30 seconds.

BTW, I only fit these extender blocks if a frame is going to stay in place semi-permanently - say, several months - for a few days only, I don't bother.
'best,
LJ
 
#17 ·
Hi Chad

Ok - firstly - this is the reason 'why':



This wasteful use of effort (boxes of the stuff !) ..........
LJ
LJ, that box of "stuff" is a treasure trove!
I imagine some starting swarm chasers will pay money for it.
When I had nothing and was trying to catch my first bees, I was begging people for old combs.
Wasted entire season with zero hits on my traps.
A full box of old combs - I really, really needed that at the moment.

Also, I totally see how I would plug those pieces into my empty frames for a honey harvest time.

SO: generating extra comb in itself is not something to sneeze at (however junky it may look to some eyes);
just coming at it from my angle of a swarm hunter and natural comb keeper.
 
#19 ·
My bees will be coming within the next week or two but I was wondering if I put 2 or 3 nucs into the horizontal hive and have separation boards between them, do the separation boards need to fit tightly (i.e. Top, bottom, and sides) into the hive or can I leave a 1.5" space on the bottom? I thought I read somewhere on the forum that a queen won't go under the divider board. ????
 
#21 ·
Agree 100% - the 1.5" space beneath a follower/partition board is only recommended for a single queen colony, a) when you want to reduce the size of an occupied area within a large hive, or b) when it's being used as a means of preventing a queen from accessing and laying in honey combs.

It would never keep two queens from meeting-up and fighting - for that you need guaranteed bee-tight partition boards.
LJ
 
#24 ·
Just to expand on this a little - for the benefit of anyone who's unsure about how solid-board Queen Excluders work ...

The normal job of a Queen is to lay eggs - and so she spends her time wandering around the combs looking for fresh places to lay. If on her travels she should come across an area of solid wood, at first she may see this as some kind of token barrier and begin to cross it, but if after an inch or so she hasn't found a fresh area of wax comb in which to lay, then she'll retreat back onto existing combs and continue her search for empty cells there. That's how the solid-board Queen Excluders are thought to work.

But - if she should detect the presence of a rival queen, then the 'red mist' descends, all thoughts of egg-laying are completely forgotten, and the only thing on her mind then is to seek out that rival queen and kill her. Under such circumstances, nothing short of a complete and effective physical barrier will prevent the queens from meeting-up and attacking each other.
LJ
 
#22 ·
Hi, Doc,

super nice hive build btw.

I installed two nucs into a similar situation, but I can see that I will run into some of the issues mentioned by other posts on this thread.

I apologize everyone for not being quite ready for prime time, meaning I have no pics to post right now, but I will try to remedy that later today.

I built two boxes which were 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". On April 27th, in each box I placed frames from a langstroth nuc, with custom made double-deep "top-bar" style frames filling out the rest of the hive. The custom frames have a top-bar of 19.5 inches, and with a frame of roughly 17" by 17" glued to it. Those posters with experience will realize that this is not as simple as it sounds and requires some modifications, which for me included adding "lips" to the top of the box that were flush with the "top-bar" frames, but this meant the langstroth frames were "gapped" and the top bars were not. My work around for the gaps was extremely messy so I'm not even going to bother to mention it.

My double-deep frames are foundation-less. I was very pleased yesterday to see that at least one of the hives the ladies are very enthusiastically building comb on the double-deep frame.

Hope to have some pictures to share soon.

-Thomas


First time posting and after I started reading, thought maybe I should start beekeeping with the Langstroth hives then work into the Horizontal Hives. However, living in NE Minnesota where the we have had low temps > -30 without wind chill and talking to local beekeepers about poor overwintering rates (around 40%), I wanted to build an insulated hive based on a cross of the langstroth and Lazutin style hive except with insulation. The walls are made out of two 1/2" plywood sandwiching 2" of EPS insulation. The roof is covered by a sheet of FRP panel. I Built custom double deep frames langstroth width and depth to avoid the brood having to cross any potential barriers between stacked vertical frames in the winter. Also, I built the cover deep enough to accommodate 3 medium supers over top of the double deep brood frames in the event I want to run two colonies out of one hive. Additionally, I can use the space in the lid for moisture absorption and blankets/insulation in the winter. The hive holds 36 double deep frames equivalent to 72 langstroth deeps. I think extraction from a double deep frame will be difficult to impossible from those frames. Anyway, here are a few photos of the hive and a few questions I'm looking for answers for. Constructive criticism and advise are welcomed openly.

1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?

2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?

3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?

4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?

Thanks for the input.

Chad

View attachment 46303 View attachment 46313 View attachment 46315 View attachment 46317
 
#25 ·
Let me expand on this a bit too.

IF the hive body is really big AND the nuc units are set at the opposing ends of the body AND there is enough space between the two - no mandatory need for the tight fitting boards.
The "enough space" is probably at least a foot or better to effectively create clear open space between the colonies.
Queen is not likely then to run across this open space into a remote hive so to break into it.
Just need to establish that clear and physical separation between the colonies.

I see people doing these nucs in large Lazutin hives and don't sweat about it.
They toss some burlap over the frames and call it done - no boards are used at all.
Gotta have lots of space though.

For most cases, have to have tight boards to separate still.
 
#28 ·
This is so helpful, thank you.
With a 5 frame nuc that will include 3 frames of bees and brood, 1 of empty brood and 1 of honey. Should I include the honey and empty brood and put it at the very back or should I save them for later, and feed the bees with sugar syrup.
 
#29 ·
if the frames are the same length why not make a box cardboard wax coated, may even work,, but with 3/8 plywood if you have it, that fills the area under the 5 frame NUC. Set the box against the end, in the bottom, set the NUC in, honey against the end wall last frame is brood edge, then the new Deep frames, let them expand into the deep hive. Leave the NUC and box there till spring, they will likely shift toward the center, likely you could remove it in the spring. If it is full of bees and has brood, well then pull the NUC out, bees and all put it in a NUC box add a Queen Cell and start another hive, slide the frames over 5 slots add some empty ones in the spring. One advantage of using the same length frames. Just need a space consuming box. If you have a chainsaw, get a block of fire wood cut it 8 X 9 1/2 by the length. If you have some styrofoam, cut some chunks till the space is filled, leave the 3/8 to 1/2 under the NUC frames. Let them grow into the deep hive using the resources of the NUC.

Feed until the dandelions bloom. then I would think you are fine.

GG
 
#34 ·
When I pick up my nuc I am going to ask if he is willing to do a shook (shaken?) swarm next spring.

I have a shed in which swarms have set up shop on and off for the last 15 years. I am also setting up swarm traps to try and get some of these. Those that came last summer survived until about two weeks ago. I believe there is not enough food storage ability in the wall to sustain them over the spring.

I have spent many wonderful winter hours making frames and my hives, this is just another challenge I will need to figure out and I certainly will share my experiences, good or bad.

I am hoping that once I get going and have at least 3 hives my problems will decrease and I can do my own splits.
 
#40 ·
Okay, I get it!! I was thinking you were saying two deeps not two mediums. Yes, I see, and saw already how the 2 mediums worked out even when he was showing the shimming to cram the stupid deep in there with the big chunk of 2x4 attached to the side. I fully understand where you are going and now the numbers make sense. Fursov was doing something like 265 x 400 (seems like golden ratio was fairly close). When I was reading Dr Leo's stuff, and a few other things, there were pieces here and there about a void area under the frames, either for a moisture absorbing mat or possibly an eco-floor and I was initially thinking that was simply space that would be taken up when the shims and conversions were applied, but when I look at the layens plans he shows, there was no accounting for the additional void at the bottom. But after a bunch of different views and finally seeing a video of someone using the shim, that they added risers to the layens box to account for the additional depth, and that kind of irritated me to see. So his initial design does two 2x10s with a 1/2" tongue which comes out to 18.5" (on a good day.) But he rabbets the 2x10 as a frame rest and so reduces it that much more. One could certainly move to a pair of 2x12 if it could be found untreated, which would give you a depth of 22-1/2 this would certainly account for the long length of the Langstroth frame, even if the ears were left in tact. The concern this brings to me is that the whole premise is that single thickness Langstroth hives are not well insulated. At 3/4" I think they have an R value of around .6 or .75 and the flat presentation of the 2x anything dimensional lumbar is I think R1. So working with huge dimensional lumber is awkward at best, so perhaps it might be better off to completely ignore his design using dimensional lumber, and go with the sheet goods plus foam insulation board R4 at 3/4" between them, with some tyvek and Hardyplank on the outside adding a bit more r's to the mix. I am pretty sure I can come up with an alternative design based on the "insulated" layens that could hold the doubled medium and shimmed deeps. And if I want to pull frames and make a nuc, split them and toss them through the extractor, I can do that as well.
 
#45 ·
So would the idea be to always use langstroth frames in some type of adapter. Or to build the adapted longer Layens frame as well? It would seem there would be no reason to use an actual Layens shorter frame ever if the box were deepened.
I have built the proper frames of the adapted size when I first started.
They are still around.
Soil Bee Insect Beehive Apiary

Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Apiary


But anymore I just make foundation-less frames from Lang plastic junk, like so:
Chair Furniture Stool Bar stool Table


Which then bees build into these:
Bee Insect Honeybee Membrane-winged insect Apiary
 
#44 ·
Okay, how about this. The green piece is the drilled hole pathway. It could certainly be attached using a screw at either end, or a rod that goes all the way through the center, or even just a pin on each side/end. Again, just quick freehand thing definitely not to scale. But this makes the required frame depth equal to 2x the top bar thickness plus the width of a langstroth frame, ear to ear.

Rectangle Line Clip art Parallel
 
#47 ·
Okay, how about this. The green piece is the drilled hole pathway. It could certainly be attached using a screw at either end, or a rod that goes all the way through the center, or even just a pin on each side/end. Again, just quick freehand thing definitely not to scale. But this makes the required frame depth equal to 2x the top bar thickness plus the width of a langstroth frame, ear to ear.

View attachment 55567
To complicated to my taste.
 
#50 ·
Simplified, after I recovered from crash :(
Removed the additional top bar from the bottom, removed the unnecessary sides outside the ears, created a little screw to hold them all together on all 4 ears. This reduces the nominal depth by a topbar thickness.
View attachment 55577
I actually like this version, Absinthe.
Indeed, thanks for the idea!

I don't care when I cut up the plastic frames - about the best use for them.
But I feel sad when I cut into a nice wooden frame - with your design no need to cut it and it is easy to revert back.

Anymore I was holding back on the supply of the good Lang wooden frames to use them for more worthy projects.
6-7 frame Lang setup is one such project I want to try sometime.
 
#49 ·
So, at this point, it would require me to make more medium frames. :) Amazingly enough, what I have a "lot" of are deep frames, and shallow honey super frames. When I got started I was told to run double deep brood nest. So I had 16 frames, then I got a nuc and had 5 more, and then I got another and got 5 more. So I have 26 deep frames. Then I was told that the bees need about 40 lbs honey to get through the winter. So I got a medium super for that, and it has 8 frames. Then I was told that it was better for honey to be collected in "shallows" so I have 24 or possibly 30 of them, because I bought the frames and they came 10 at a time :) So, this little idea will take care of the mediums.

Two shallows can go together the same way, but that does leave 1-3/4 void between them. Might be fine if I just add a guide to the "top bar" between them. Can't imagine the girls would mind.

The deeps, could certainly be cut down to mediums. Or an L shaped piece could be added to the existing top bar design that would wrap the deep, or make a weird shaped frame size like 3-3/8 that would simply butt up against the deep to approximate what is going on with the medium pairs.

Ultimately, there is a benefit to reusing existing equipment. However, it might be better to pick and choose what to re-use. None of it is precious. If these frames have comb in them already, or foundation, great. But now, if it is the design as matter of course, then I would need to provide a starting guide on a side bar.

So what does this buy me? I can use my extractor if I ever get any honey. Can I remove brood frames and split them to put in a nuc? The rotation would certainly affect queen cups, but should it make any difference for brood? Having interchangeability doesn't make much sense if I can't actually shift from the Layens into the Langstroth. If it is only good for one way shifting, or just for extraction, then I would need to control which frames they put honey into.
 
#51 ·
........
So what does this buy me? I can use my extractor if I ever get any honey. Can I remove brood frames and split them to put in a nuc? The rotation would certainly affect queen cups, but should it make any difference for brood? Having interchangeability doesn't make much sense if I can't actually shift from the Layens into the Langstroth. If it is only good for one way shifting, or just for extraction, then I would need to control which frames they put honey into.
What does it buy you?
I don't know.
Fundamentally, you need a good enough reason to go horizontal first for the benefits of it and also be ready to accept the liabilities of it.

If that is decided - then now you are into the logistical decisions (make your own frames or reuse the Lang frames - one such decision).

Of course you can move your brood into a nuc (either Lang nuc or Layens nuc).
Rotation of 90 degrees does not matter.
You indeed have it working both directions with your clever design.

For extraction in the long hives, you will see that the purely honey frames will be found in the wings (if the central entrance) or in the back (if the end entrance or asymmetric entrance).
 
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