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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Agree 100% - the 1.5" space beneath a follower/partition board is only recommended for a single queen colony, a) when you want to reduce the size of an occupied area within a large hive, or b) when it's being used as a means of preventing a queen from accessing and laying in honey combs.

    It would never keep two queens from meeting-up and fighting - for that you need guaranteed bee-tight partition boards.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Hi, Doc,

    super nice hive build btw.

    I installed two nucs into a similar situation, but I can see that I will run into some of the issues mentioned by other posts on this thread.

    I apologize everyone for not being quite ready for prime time, meaning I have no pics to post right now, but I will try to remedy that later today.

    I built two boxes which were 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". On April 27th, in each box I placed frames from a langstroth nuc, with custom made double-deep "top-bar" style frames filling out the rest of the hive. The custom frames have a top-bar of 19.5 inches, and with a frame of roughly 17" by 17" glued to it. Those posters with experience will realize that this is not as simple as it sounds and requires some modifications, which for me included adding "lips" to the top of the box that were flush with the "top-bar" frames, but this meant the langstroth frames were "gapped" and the top bars were not. My work around for the gaps was extremely messy so I'm not even going to bother to mention it.

    My double-deep frames are foundation-less. I was very pleased yesterday to see that at least one of the hives the ladies are very enthusiastically building comb on the double-deep frame.

    Hope to have some pictures to share soon.

    -Thomas


    Quote Originally Posted by Docsmaple View Post
    First time posting and after I started reading, thought maybe I should start beekeeping with the Langstroth hives then work into the Horizontal Hives. However, living in NE Minnesota where the we have had low temps > -30 without wind chill and talking to local beekeepers about poor overwintering rates (around 40%), I wanted to build an insulated hive based on a cross of the langstroth and Lazutin style hive except with insulation. The walls are made out of two 1/2" plywood sandwiching 2" of EPS insulation. The roof is covered by a sheet of FRP panel. I Built custom double deep frames langstroth width and depth to avoid the brood having to cross any potential barriers between stacked vertical frames in the winter. Also, I built the cover deep enough to accommodate 3 medium supers over top of the double deep brood frames in the event I want to run two colonies out of one hive. Additionally, I can use the space in the lid for moisture absorption and blankets/insulation in the winter. The hive holds 36 double deep frames equivalent to 72 langstroth deeps. I think extraction from a double deep frame will be difficult to impossible from those frames. Anyway, here are a few photos of the hive and a few questions I'm looking for answers for. Constructive criticism and advise are welcomed openly.

    1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?

    2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?

    3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?

    4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?

    Thanks for the input.

    Chad

    Attachment 46303Attachment 46313Attachment 46315Attachment 46317
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Thanks for the information Greg adn LJ. Much appreciated!
    Chad

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Agree 100% - the 1.5" space beneath a follower/partition board is only recommended for a single queen colony, a) when you want to reduce the size of an occupied area within a large hive, or b) when it's being used as a means of preventing a queen from accessing and laying in honey combs.

    It would never keep two queens from meeting-up and fighting - for that you need guaranteed bee-tight partition boards.
    LJ
    Just to expand on this a little - for the benefit of anyone who's unsure about how solid-board Queen Excluders work ...

    The normal job of a Queen is to lay eggs - and so she spends her time wandering around the combs looking for fresh places to lay. If on her travels she should come across an area of solid wood, at first she may see this as some kind of token barrier and begin to cross it, but if after an inch or so she hasn't found a fresh area of wax comb in which to lay, then she'll retreat back onto existing combs and continue her search for empty cells there. That's how the solid-board Queen Excluders are thought to work.

    But - if she should detect the presence of a rival queen, then the 'red mist' descends, all thoughts of egg-laying are completely forgotten, and the only thing on her mind then is to seek out that rival queen and kill her. Under such circumstances, nothing short of a complete and effective physical barrier will prevent the queens from meeting-up and attacking each other.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Let me expand on this a bit too.

    IF the hive body is really big AND the nuc units are set at the opposing ends of the body AND there is enough space between the two - no mandatory need for the tight fitting boards.
    The "enough space" is probably at least a foot or better to effectively create clear open space between the colonies.
    Queen is not likely then to run across this open space into a remote hive so to break into it.
    Just need to establish that clear and physical separation between the colonies.

    I see people doing these nucs in large Lazutin hives and don't sweat about it.
    They toss some burlap over the frames and call it done - no boards are used at all.
    Gotta have lots of space though.

    For most cases, have to have tight boards to separate still.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    1) As others have said - just directly put in the nuc frames as-is (use that Lang compatibility you just built-in). What I would do - I would zip additional blank Lang frames - just hanging under. Bees will eventually build the hanging blanks IF done correctly (should keep them compressed).
    Dump the remaining bees right into the hive. Set the nuc box inside in the opposite end and call it a day - the straggles will just move to the frames at their own pace. Retrieve the nuc box later at your convenience.

    Again - take advantage of such huge volume you just created.
    That is what you mean by building a Lazutin hive - you got space - use it.

    2) If you hang additional frames by zips - they will get utilized - here you go - you have make-shift Lasutin frames.
    Be sure to keep follower boards to keep the bees reduced and not letting them grow sideways - eventually they will build down.
    You can use the dummy board hangers if the weather is still cold (per LJ's advice); but if you install the nuc in warm enough weather - just save yourself extra hassle and do the blank frames at once. The follower boards/some insulation on top should suffice.

    3) Extraction is a custom project in such setup. You can still try supering. It will be very hard to have them go up into a honey super if you try (I have the same issue - they just would not go up - because they have no need). One idea is this - in the honey section use doubled-Lang frames connected for easy separation - you can easily split them apart and extract. OR use triple medium Langs - zip them up. The same idea.

    As for me - am not concerned much with extraction of my large frames - they are brood and resources only use. I will cut and strain them as a way to rotate out the older/poor combs - have to do it anyway. Also I harvest perga out of the brood frames - again, comb is destroyed.

    Being custom is a minus in the extraction department - hence I insist on Lang compatibility of my equipment - why more hassles?

    4) Heavy and bulky. But if no need to move - a perfect rig. If space not an issue - have a row of these and enjoy.
    I would think through how to move it if really have to - without injuring yourself. Should be convenient way to two people.
    Holding it by one hand on the each end is a poor idea and a way to injure yourself (like a chest by the swinging side handles - better than nothing - but poor ergo).
    I do these instead:
    Attachment 46349

    Extras:
    - keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
    - you can easily keep very, very feisty bees as you hardly need to get in - a winner hands down in my book (mite resistance often comes along with defensiveness - so need to deal with them)
    - this will make a great resource hive as any long hive (but must be sure to handle the compatibility somehow - moving Lang/Dadants frames in and out)
    - keeping nucs in these does not even require divider boards; you just keep them separated by empty space - 1-2 feet apart works fine. Use follower boards and drop some freely overhanging burlap/fabric to keep them kind of contained. They mind their own business and do not cross over for as long as they are small. Handily, you already have multiple-entrances - a perfect setup for a multi-unit.

    Here are useful links (non-English - but those who see, will see plenty of useful detail):
    https://apidomiki.ru/vladimirskiie_uli
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC34...TNbJl4fL3WOHtg
    I am also transferring a nuc into a deep horizontal hive so when you say 'set the nuc box in the other end and retrieve it later' do I put a follower board between the box and the frames and let the straggler bees go under the board or do I leave everything just open.

    I have read that the empty space behind the follower board is supposed to be filled with frames or the bees will build on the upper cover in a possibly willy nilly fashion. I have watched some of those Russian videos and in one it looked like they just let the bees go under the board and out another entrance if they liked. They did not seem concerned that there were a few bees in the empty frames space.

    I am thinking of making those dummy frames that Dr. Sharashkin suggested to transfer the langstroth to layens deep, or could I just set the frames at the back of the new hive, leaning up against one another, until they build on the new, or do I need them to be hanging.
    Last edited by ursa_minor; 05-11-2020 at 07:02 AM. Reason: corrected some spelling

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by ursa_minor View Post
    I am also transferring a nuc into a deep horizontal hive so when you say 'set the nuc box in the other end and retrieve it later' do I put a follower board between the box and the frames and let the straggler bees go under the board or do I leave everything just open.
    Not exactly critical as long as you manage to de-mark line for the bees where the "inside" of the nest and the "outside" of the nest are separated.
    They will want to move from "outside" to "inside".
    Just a clear physical separation does the same demarcation.

    Since I have many follower boards laying around, I would use a board myself - so to emphasize to the straggler bees that they are "outside" of the nest and need to get "inside".
    You can hang some fabric over to act like a "follower board" as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by ursa_minor View Post
    I am thinking of making those dummy frames that Dr. Sharashkin suggested to transfer the langstroth to layens deep, or could I just set the frames at the back of the new hive, leaning up against one another, until they build on the new, or do I need them to be hanging.
    Save yourself some hassle and don't bother building anything.
    Just stand them up right and call it a day.
    No need to hang up anything.
    The free standing frames should be the furthest from the entrance and the bees will gradually move away from them.
    Like so (a pair of Lang frames freely standing in a long hive).
    20190817_163756.jpg

    "The better is enemy of the good" - no need for continuous improvements as there is no end to it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    This is so helpful, thank you.
    With a 5 frame nuc that will include 3 frames of bees and brood, 1 of empty brood and 1 of honey. Should I include the honey and empty brood and put it at the very back or should I save them for later, and feed the bees with sugar syrup.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by ursa_minor View Post
    This is so helpful, thank you.
    With a 5 frame nuc that will include 3 frames of bees and brood, 1 of empty brood and 1 of honey. Should I include the honey and empty brood and put it at the very back or should I save them for later, and feed the bees with sugar syrup.
    if the frames are the same length why not make a box cardboard wax coated, may even work,, but with 3/8 plywood if you have it, that fills the area under the 5 frame NUC. Set the box against the end, in the bottom, set the NUC in, honey against the end wall last frame is brood edge, then the new Deep frames, let them expand into the deep hive. Leave the NUC and box there till spring, they will likely shift toward the center, likely you could remove it in the spring. If it is full of bees and has brood, well then pull the NUC out, bees and all put it in a NUC box add a Queen Cell and start another hive, slide the frames over 5 slots add some empty ones in the spring. One advantage of using the same length frames. Just need a space consuming box. If you have a chainsaw, get a block of fire wood cut it 8 X 9 1/2 by the length. If you have some styrofoam, cut some chunks till the space is filled, leave the 3/8 to 1/2 under the NUC frames. Let them grow into the deep hive using the resources of the NUC.

    Feed until the dandelions bloom. then I would think you are fine.

    GG

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    if the frames are the same length why not make a box cardboard wax coated, may even work,, but with 3/8 plywood if you have it, that fills the area under the 5 frame NUC. Set the box against the end, in the bottom, set the NUC in, honey against the end wall last frame is brood edge, then the new Deep frames, let them expand into the deep hive. Leave the NUC and box there till spring, they will likely shift toward the center, likely you could remove it in the spring. If it is full of bees and has brood, well then pull the NUC out, bees and all put it in a NUC box add a Queen Cell and start another hive, slide the frames over 5 slots add some empty ones in the spring. One advantage of using the same length frames. Just need a space consuming box. If you have a chainsaw, get a block of fire wood cut it 8 X 9 1/2 by the length. If you have some styrofoam, cut some chunks till the space is filled, leave the 3/8 to 1/2 under the NUC frames. Let them grow into the deep hive using the resources of the NUC.

    Feed until the dandelions bloom. then I would think you are fine.

    GG
    Thank you, I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length.

    I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by ursa_minor View Post
    Thank you, I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length.

    I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.
    ursa
    ha,, you will not know till you try. Every one has their first year.. Mine sucked..
    So I presume the Layens is shorter than the Lang Else one could fasten a temp top bar to the Lang. I am not sure Ignorant there.

    Did you make your Layens hive? I ask because one could make a converter hive, 5 lang on one end and 7 layens on the other, entrance on the layen end. and still do the deed I described.

    I guess then my too late advice would be get a package not a NUC, Can you call up the place you get a NUC from and ask if they could sell you a shook swarm? Or take a DR Leo NUC box over to him and he starts a "NUC" in it for you? With all new stuff there is not the concern of disease for him/ her

    So you are basically buying apples to fit into an egg carton, size challenge.
    The advantage of a NUC is it is a mini coloney, if it will not fit then the advantage is somewhat mitigated.

    I think the less hassle way out is a package. there was a pic in the dr leo book about a frame holder that held the frame 90 degree rotated, that could be an option.

    Good luck, share the trail you use others are likely in the same boat.

    have a look at this http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-bui...h-layens.shtml

    GG

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by ursa_minor View Post
    Thank you, I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length.

    I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.
    Sorry ursa.

    I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
    You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
    20191123_163656.jpg20191123_163751.jpg20191123_163642.jpg20191123_163619.jpg

    This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Sorry ursa.

    I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
    You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
    20191123_163656.jpg20191123_163751.jpg20191123_163642.jpg20191123_163619.jpg

    This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.
    Greg,

    But then why would someone buy his wax and custom frames. IMO he created a market and now intends to sell to it.

    Hey we should make a custom size and then be the only place to order frames and wax, NUCs from........

    really many sizes would work,, why compete with 20 other folks in the Lang market.
    Apparently Layens is popular over in Europe. he is leveraging that work in a US market. Interesting angle.



    GG

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    When I pick up my nuc I am going to ask if he is willing to do a shook (shaken?) swarm next spring.

    I have a shed in which swarms have set up shop on and off for the last 15 years. I am also setting up swarm traps to try and get some of these. Those that came last summer survived until about two weeks ago. I believe there is not enough food storage ability in the wall to sustain them over the spring.

    I have spent many wonderful winter hours making frames and my hives, this is just another challenge I will need to figure out and I certainly will share my experiences, good or bad.

    I am hoping that once I get going and have at least 3 hives my problems will decrease and I can do my own splits.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Greg,

    But then why would someone buy his wax and custom frames. IMO he created a market and now intends to sell to it.

    Hey we should make a custom size and then be the only place to order frames and wax, NUCs from........

    really many sizes would work,, why compete with 20 other folks in the Lang market.
    Apparently Layens is popular over in Europe. he is leveraging that work in a US market. Interesting angle.



    GG
    Exactly.
    For $$$$$!
    And with the promise of some magic too.


    GG,
    I actually think the idea of Lang-compatibility never occurred to him.
    Seriously.
    I like the guy in many ways, but he is also is kinda ..... "blind"??? to such obvious things.

    Speaking of the custom frames and hive - I have exactly the idea to implement.

    But of course, I will be like L. Sharashkin and will put up all the information online for free.
    But unlike him, the thing WILL be Lang compatible.
    No need to inject subtle and yet obvious complications.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Sorry ursa.

    I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
    You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
    20191123_163656.jpg20191123_163751.jpg20191123_163642.jpg20191123_163619.jpg

    This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.
    When you say Ukrainian is that the same thing as the Lazutin? What `Fedor Lazutin' describes as "Horizontal Hive with Extra Deep Frames" in "Keeping Bees with a Smile"? (And with the plans on Dr Leo's website? called Lazutin?) This was kind of an initial question I had, since he pushes that Smile book, and all through the book Fedor is describing what he is doing, all of which involved presumably that hive. Then out the other side of Dr Leo's mouth is hey, this Layens stuff is the "Cat's Pajamas!". Might that be because he is an editor on GgL's translated public domain book, as well, or simply because the techniques in it apply to horizontal beekeeping, regardless of the specific width and depth of the frame? Or is there, (and I am presuming, that your answer is **NO** some environmental, regional, zone based reason that there is a benefit to the narrower than Langstroth, aspect ratio of the Layen's measurements?)

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    When you say Ukrainian is that the same thing as the Lazutin? .....
    No.
    I wrote extensively on the subject in the "Top Bar and Horizontal hive" sub-forum already.
    Please search and read on.

    About:
    ....reason that there is a benefit to the narrower than Langstroth, aspect ratio of the Layen's measurements?
    Even the Father Langstroth himself in later life felt that the 12 inch wide frame is a better frame.
    But it was too late to change the frame already in the production.

    In fact, little_john very recently brought this up in one of the talks.
    I have uncovered evidence that later in his life Langstroth was considering changing towards a narrower and deeper format, but by that time the size that we see today had become firmly established. I've also found anecdotal evidence that around 1858 he supplied hives with frames strung across the short dimension of what has become known as his 10-frame brood box - those frames were known as 'short Langstroth frames', and had dimensions of 12 1/4 inches long by 10 1/2 inches deep. So 12 inches or thereabouts just keeps reappearing as a hive dimension - being also the size of the classic 12x12x12 American (pre-Langstroth) Box Hive, as well as the Warre.
    From:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ht=little_john

    Overall, the 12 inch (300mm) wide frame is more ergonomic for both the bee and the beekeeper.
    Just as we speak, compact vertical hives of 300x300 box configuration are quickly becoming popular in Russia and Ukraine.
    I too posted lots of resources on that subject.

    Incidentally, both Layens and the Ukrainan frame are ~12 inch (~300mm) wide frames - they are nominally identical in this particular dimension to what Farther Langstroth was ultimately proposing.
    Last edited by GregV; 05-12-2020 at 10:28 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
    You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
    This is to say not that the Ukrainian which was almost a doubled Langstroth deep would have been a better choice for Dr Leo's book, but not that it was a necessarily better choice in frame size, because what you like is more like a narrower layens?

    Heading off to read your stuff in the other forum, if I can figure out the search thingie

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    This is to say not that the Ukrainian which was almost a doubled Langstroth deep would have been a better choice for Dr Leo's book, but not that it was a necessarily better choice in frame size, because what you like is more like a narrower layens?

    Heading off to read your stuff in the other forum, if I can figure out the search thingie
    OK, according to https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-bu...me-plans.shtml
    The marketed Layens frame is [12 15/16" x 15 15/16"]
    The paired Lang medium frames (attached along the long side) give you [12 8/16" x 17 12/16"].
    This is essentially the standard Ukrainan frame (or a standard deep Dadant frame turned sideways - exact same size).

    So, 12 15/16" ~ 12 8/16" --> the width is nominally the same.
    Exact same equipment can be used if you allow for both frame widths (should think ahead, obviously).
    You see this is not a narrower Layens at all (this is within a generic Langstroth box tolerance - according to my stash under the porch).

    The problem is: 15 15/16" <> 17 12/16" --> this particular frame dimension difference is significant.
    IF you follow to the marketed Layens hive dimension, you then end up with a hive where standard Lang frame can not be fit in any easy way you try (the hive is too shallow).

    Well, you simple ditch the "Sharaskin frame" dependency and instead build your hive around paired together Lang frames.
    My own standard horizontal frame dimension is driven by a common frame widely available.
    (I get these for about free and just reuse):
    20190815_182059.jpg20191123_163608.jpg
    Thus you have yourself the built-in compatibility with the Lang frames (the hive will be a little deeper by 2-3 inches).

    One obvious benefit - you take in a Lang nuc as-is without any hassle whatsoever (no need for those sophisticated conversion schemes - just stand up the frames against the wall).
    In fact, I want to make a small modification in my long hives so I can truly just run the free-standing Lang frames without ANY modifications to them at all - purely for honey extractions convenience.
    Last edited by GregV; 05-12-2020 at 11:46 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Newby with Horizontal Hive Build

    Okay, I get it!! I was thinking you were saying two deeps not two mediums. Yes, I see, and saw already how the 2 mediums worked out even when he was showing the shimming to cram the stupid deep in there with the big chunk of 2x4 attached to the side. I fully understand where you are going and now the numbers make sense. Fursov was doing something like 265 x 400 (seems like golden ratio was fairly close). When I was reading Dr Leo's stuff, and a few other things, there were pieces here and there about a void area under the frames, either for a moisture absorbing mat or possibly an eco-floor and I was initially thinking that was simply space that would be taken up when the shims and conversions were applied, but when I look at the layens plans he shows, there was no accounting for the additional void at the bottom. But after a bunch of different views and finally seeing a video of someone using the shim, that they added risers to the layens box to account for the additional depth, and that kind of irritated me to see. So his initial design does two 2x10s with a 1/2" tongue which comes out to 18.5" (on a good day.) But he rabbets the 2x10 as a frame rest and so reduces it that much more. One could certainly move to a pair of 2x12 if it could be found untreated, which would give you a depth of 22-1/2 this would certainly account for the long length of the Langstroth frame, even if the ears were left in tact. The concern this brings to me is that the whole premise is that single thickness Langstroth hives are not well insulated. At 3/4" I think they have an R value of around .6 or .75 and the flat presentation of the 2x anything dimensional lumbar is I think R1. So working with huge dimensional lumber is awkward at best, so perhaps it might be better off to completely ignore his design using dimensional lumber, and go with the sheet goods plus foam insulation board R4 at 3/4" between them, with some tyvek and Hardyplank on the outside adding a bit more r's to the mix. I am pretty sure I can come up with an alternative design based on the "insulated" layens that could hold the doubled medium and shimmed deeps. And if I want to pull frames and make a nuc, split them and toss them through the extractor, I can do that as well.

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