Touching side bar - ALL way
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  1. #1
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    Default Touching side bar - ALL way

    I have spoken about this before and have plans for the same - making the touching side bars all way on my next frame batch.
    Here is a good demo and a brief discussion.

    Jump to 8:30 and watch carefully (ignore or turn off audio).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb7Z3wR7dxU&t=638s

    The deep Dadant frames with solid 35 mm side bars (1 3/8") - not an issue.
    Many presume issues with the frames propolised together - not necessarily so, as we can see.
    These AMM bees in Ural region of Russia (similar to zone 2-3 of US).
    Maybe the Caucasion bee types will create more issues; donno.

    I have more similar independent videos about running on wide side bars - also no issues.
    For sure, making the frames is much more simple how it should really be.

    Here is the relevant comment of the keeper, he says:
    ...I transferred all my bees on 300mm frames (GV: deep Dadants) onto this side bar type; I like the wintering and spring development a lot. It works as a double-wall. First - it is warmer, ... (then some theorizing of better mite situation due to higher CO2).... The width of the side bar - 35-36mm; the bars are touching.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Just another video on the topic:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3TzmNFU-wU&t=8s
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    R.O.B. Manley used closed end frames in his surplus honey supers, and they were tried here in the U.S.A., but they never caught on. Probably because of being propolized too much.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    R.O.B. Manley used closed end frames in his surplus honey supers, and they were tried here in the U.S.A., but they never caught on. Probably because of being propolized too much.
    I want to try these specifically in the brood nest for presumed wintering/spring development benefits.
    Using these in the surplus honey supers would be the last place to use - none of the benefits - all of the potential drawbacks.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Those frames were not gummed up much because they were new, and in the honey box. Bee numbers were low and outer frames had not even been touched. Being wood rather than plastic helps too.

    Longer term Greg your hives will be more difficult to work if you go for this configuration. Not impossible though, so whatever you feel best about.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Those frames were not gummed up much because they were new, and in the honey box. Bee numbers were low and outer frames had not even been touched. Being wood rather than plastic helps too.

    Longer term Greg your hives will be more difficult to work if you go for this configuration. Not impossible though, so whatever you feel best about.
    This guys also runs jumbo Lazutin frames - the same end bar design - he has more videos.
    For the record - the AMM bees are not as propolise-crazy as Caucasians - a known fact.
    I am sure running the AMMs helps that way.
    This is an unknown in the US setting, indeed.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    No bees are as propolis crazy as Caucasians LOL.

    If the bees in that video are AMM's they are a heckuva lot different to the AMM's i used to know. Although the nice white cappings is familiar they sure build pretty honey comb, one of the only things i miss about AMM's.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Per what I watch - pure AMMs can be quite managable (this guy is an AMM junky - his channel is called - "About Middle-Russian bees" - about pure AMMs that is).

    Here is the same guy.
    The jumbo Lazutin frame; touching end bars.
    Crazy peaceful AMMs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uECgmQcmMh0
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    The bees are only one aspect of potential trouble. The other is wood itself. Boxes move; frames move. Any variation and they'll be stuck. I don't see the benefit.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Yeah, I have doubts that this will be manageable long-term. Of course, many things are manageable, it’s just a matter of how much inconvenience you're willing to deal with during what should be straightforward inspections. I'm also suspect that there is any appreciable advantage (honey or overwintering) of such a design. I've had some colonies propolize the side bar to the box on only the lower 1/3 of a standard (non-full width) side bar and have pulled off top bars more than once trying to get the frames out. This is a real pain when you're trying to move quickly through colonies. I'm thinking you'll live to regret this design choice...
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    .....have pulled off top bars more than once trying to get the frames out...
    Let me clarify something.
    You see, in long hives you do not have to pull the frames UP.
    You crack the frames apart and move them away.
    Then you can pull it up IF want to.

    No need to force the frames UP when using long hives - there is always side space to work.
    Even when using smaller boxes/smaller frames, the long idea still works the same - just keep some side space open.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You see, in long hives you do not have to pull the frames UP.
    You crack the frames apart and move them away.
    Then you can pull it up IF want to.

    I do not work long hives, but the video you provided in post #8 shows the beekeeper sliding frames sideways and then lifting upwards, which is exactly what you'd do with a new Langstroth. Of course the video shows brand new gear, so this is super easy. The problem is, what happens two or more years down the road when propolis builds up and you can't slide it much (if any) sideways? Again, not a long hive person, but in the video above there does not seem to be much space on the outside of the frames. Perhaps this is not typical. Even if you can slide the outermost frames out, what if the 2nd or 3rd frame in is glued tight to the sides? It's hard enough with deep Langstroth frames.

    Just giving my 2 cents...I think that if you do this long enough, you'll find that if something can happen, it will happen.

    Cheers
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    if something can happen, it will happen.
    Isn't this true of any hive and any size frame?
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Non argument, cos any idea no matter how unworkable, could be supported using that argument.

    Likewise, any idea regardless how good, could be dismissed using that argument.

    It's about degree.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Isn't this true of any hive and any size frame?
    Well, Head of the Beekeeping department Moscow Agricultural Academy, Russia in 2014 did this public presentation.
    The point of the presentation was - (re) introduction of this exact frame design (the design itself is not new).
    Hard to believe he would be setting up himself for embarrassment without running the sufficient trials.
    One of the benefits he stated - was much better micro-climate in the brood cavity and as a side-affect of significantly fewer mites (that alone is of interest to me).

    I still believe guys in Russia (and Eastern Euro at large) know a thing or two about (GV: added) Northern beekeeping.
    (GV: added) None of this maybe even relevant in USDA zones 7 -... and compatible regions.

    This video is in Russian and I only hang it up to make a point:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrgziWo40PM

    Ideally, they should have a transcript (yet to be tracked down).

    So, I am intrigued and will try to start a trial this summer.
    And keep digging other sources.

    PS: did find a brief description (Google should translate)
    http://o-paceke.ru/innovatsionnaya-ramka/
    Last edited by GregV; 02-20-2019 at 07:37 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Just another video on the topic:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3TzmNFU-wU&t=8s
    The same guy - spring revision after wintering on the touching frames (he runs 10-frame Dadants).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGwW_u39b9Q
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Hard to believe he would be setting up himself for embarrassment without running the sufficient trials.
    Believe me, people do that all the time, especially on the net.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Believe me, people do that all the time, especially on the net.
    Well, one thing if I am setting myself up on the BS or even on youtube (with literally nothing to lose).
    Another thing - a highly placed academia person who collects a good salary for supposedly doing published research.
    Will see.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Touching side bar - ALL way

    Wasn't referring to you Greg, i don't agree with all your posts, but i do enjoy them.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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