timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher
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  1. #1
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    Feb 2019
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    Withee WI USA
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    Default timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    I am planning on raising some queens this summer using the Brother Adam/Kirk Webster/Micheal Palmer system. I really want the queens to emerge near the end of June so I can maximize the amount of bees and brood for making splits, I am solidly in zone 3. But something came up and I need to leave the state and will be gone from June 19th-June 23rd. I have never raised queens before except from mad fits of swarming in which I gained many colonies. My question is do you think it would be better to graft and leave, so I can be back in 5 days to transfer the cells into the queen right finisher OR at day 5 transfer the cells into the queen right finisher and then leave and be back just in time to make up the nucs and place queen cells in each? I would rather do it the first way seems less risky, because if I choose the second way and I was late getting home the queens may emerge and kill each other. What is the reason that on day 5 the cells need to be transferred to the queen right finisher? Is this an exact timing thing, what would be lost if it were on day 7 for example? I value all opinions and knowledge, I have been intensely reading so many of these threads since I got my bees. Thanks! Cal PS I have dependable children that would be at home to refill feeders etc.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    My question is do you think it would be better to graft and leave, so I can be back in 5 days to transfer the cells into the queen right finisher
    What is the reason that on day 5 the cells need to be transferred to the queen right finisher?
    not sure how your counting your days.
    typical you move from the starter to the finisher 24 hours after grafting
    What is the reason that on day 5 the cells need to be transferred to the queen right finisher?
    Being queen less is required to get a good start in most cases, after witch bees in a queen right hive will finish the cells, but would have ignored the grafts.
    As the larva grows its food needs grow exponentially, it takes almost 7X the bees to finish a cell then it does to start one.

    . I really want the queens to emerge near the end of June
    I have never raised queens before
    You might want to start small and early, I most cerntily wouldn't expect your 1st ever or even 2nd round of grafts to turn out well
    Maby change to a nuc sized queen less free flying starter/finisher?
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...arter-Finisher

    Fail fast, fail cheap, and fail early!
    Limits your resource losses and gives you time to lean form your mistakes and still hit your gole date. + any early queens are paying in to your resource pool for nucs.
    I am not saying un naturally early, but when the start of swarm season comes around you should be starting

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Tallapoosa, Georgia, USA
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    615

    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Screen Shot 2019-02-17 at 4.18.13 PM.jpg

    You could move the cells 6/18 and return in time to populate mating nucs.

    Download your own spreadsheet from the Ohio State Beekeepers Association. I use it to keep up with my timing when raising successive batches.
    I would start early myself...
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  5. #4
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by calkal View Post
    What is the reason that on day 5 the cells need to be transferred to the queen right finisher? Is this an exact timing thing, what would be lost if it were on day 7 for example?
    In the Bro. Adam cell building method, the cells are moved to the queen right finisher 5 days after graft because the cells are sealed that day. Why not wait until day 7. I have, but not best plan. It increases the chance that a rogue virgin could enter the cell builder.

  6. #5
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    May 2015
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    Skaneateles, NY
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    In the Bro. Adam cell building method, the cells are moved to the queen right finisher 5 days after graft because the cells are sealed that day. Why not wait until day 7. I have, but not best plan. It increases the chance that a rogue virgin could enter the cell builder.
    If using the cell starter as also the finisher do you recombine the starter with the original mother colony on day 5 then? ( over the excluder obviously)

  7. #6
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    Feb 2019
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    Withee WI USA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by aran View Post
    If using the cell starter as also the finisher do you recombine the starter with the original mother colony on day 5 then? ( over the excluder obviously)
    I am not the expert here, but from what I learned from Micheal Palmer's videos, I would say yes.

  8. #7

    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    In the Bro. Adam cell building method, the cells are moved to the queen right finisher 5 days after graft because the cells are sealed that day.
    Brother Adam writes himself that the queen, with capped brood frames, is brought back to the original hive stand after 11 days.

    The queenless cell raising unit, or most of it, is used strengthening hives in that yard.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
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    Withee WI USA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    In the Bro. Adam cell building method, the cells are moved to the queen right finisher 5 days after graft because the cells are sealed that day. Why not wait until day 7. I have, but not best plan. It increases the chance that a rogue virgin could enter the cell builder.
    Thanks, I just realized how nicely protected the cells are once they are put above the excluder.

  10. #9
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by aran View Post
    If using the cell starter as also the finisher do you recombine the starter with the original mother colony on day 5 then? ( over the excluder obviously)
    Yes

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Galt, CA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Or if you are a like me and try to emulate the hunter in the Canterbury tales and never met a gadget you didn't like, you can order one of these hand held queen rearing calculator for $15...lol..it really is pretty neat...see Youtube videos by Ian or Jason Chrisman...Queen Calculator_resized.jpg

    Order here: http://dcsgadgets.blogspot.com/p/bee...g-gadgets.html

  12. #11
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    Feb 2019
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    Withee WI USA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer1949 View Post
    Or if you are a like me and try to emulate the hunter in the Canterbury tales and never met a gadget you didn't like, you can order one of these hand held queen rearing calculator for $15...lol..it really is pretty neat...see Youtube videos by Ian or Jason Chrisman...Queen Calculator_resized.jpg

    Order here: http://dcsgadgets.blogspot.com/p/bee...g-gadgets.html
    Already got one, really like it.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2015
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    Skaneateles, NY
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Yes
    Thanks much

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
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    Withee WI USA
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    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Thanks to all the good advice here, I have decided to to graft June 7th, this will allow me to check graft acceptance and try again in case it is an epic fail. Can I check for acceptance at 24 hours? Or maybe I should ask when is the earliest I can check?

  15. #14

    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    Started cells can be seen in 24 hours but the real number will be different generally at harvest of the cells. It at least lets you know your on the right track.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Medina, Ohio USA
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    6

    Default Re: timing when switching from queenless starter to queen right finisher

    All of the planning on the exact day,,,,,,the 7th,,,is good, but I would run with the input from “msl”. Even if you are working towards a solid date, you would be well advised to perfect your skill on a few small batches, before putting all your eggs in one basket. I can remember very well how my first couple try’s at grafting worked out. Plus you cannot guarantee Mother Nature won’t scrap your plan for you on the 7th. In zone 3 you should be able to give it a shot or two well before that critical production date. Practice makes perfect!

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