OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues - Page 7
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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    10,148

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    yeah, the labeling directions to use early spring and late fall make it sound like they were giving oxalic acid the same consideration as the synthetic miticides. i.e. to be used before supering and after pulling supers for harvest..
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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  3. #122
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    247

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    back when i was a student in organic chemistry lab we used all kinds of solvents when 'manufacturing' and 'purifying' compounds.

    some of them were quite toxic and working under vented hoods and with personal protective gear was required.

    the small percentage of 'impurities' in a final product frequently contain traces of these solvents.

    i don't know what chemicals are used when manufacturing the oxalic acid sold for this application, but it's conceivable that the removal of honey supers could have something to do with them.
    This is accurate.

    One of the reasons I'd not recommend treating a hive with any "wood bleach" product.

    IDK how ppl feel comfortable buying a $9 pound of wood bleach and vaporizing that into beehives.

  4. #123
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,012

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Square...
    I think they were trying to do a good thing when they expedited the process for approval but that also meant picking the low hanging fruit.

    Either way, it gave approval for what many were already doing. My opinion is that most of these rules are in place for the big guys (not that a hobby guy should use poor judgement). The big guys have more attention and therefor need more cover. It is the difference of me being able to bottle in my kitchen and sell out of my house and a volume guy having to dedicate space.

    For the small guy, it is building trust with people that you see very often and so you have to build trust in those people and it is important to do things that do that. If I make somebody mad and they made me quit selling, I would not be ruined. On the other side of that, I have to personally face those that I deal with and so those relationships are important.
    Don't do things that make you queasy cause then you will make others feel queasy about you.

    I personally feel fine about the science of oxalic in hives in almost any fashion. I still will not use it till I am shown I have to cause of the way I am keeping bees. I would still buy from my neighbor who did use it before I took a chance on a box store honey if I wanted the properties that local honey offers. I would feel better with mistreated oxalic honey then some other approved chemicals used in hives. I am not too queasy of the other chemicals either but think oxalic has a wider margin for error of use with out risk then some others.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps, I was growing mushrooms in my basement and used a pressure cooker and still air box to help control impurities. You would be surprised at what you can grow in a petri dish with out trying. I was worried I was going to end up with anthrax. penicillin is easy.
    zone 5b

  5. #124
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
    Posts
    1,446

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    It's the public perception.
    Nobody is buying a $10 jar of honey because they need it.
    Buy local, support the farmer, save the bees, a bit of mystique.

    More fragile than we want to believe. Pretty simple step to protect everyone. I would feel a bit selfish to go over the line. Know the line is simply where I choose to draw it for myself.
    I'd say about 20% of my customers quiz me about treatments. When I say, "Yes I treat", they put down the jar until I tell them only with the honey supers off. That's what it's all about for me.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  6. #125
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,443

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    One of the reasons I'd not recommend treating a hive with any "wood bleach" product.

    IDK how ppl feel comfortable buying a $9 pound of wood bleach and vaporizing that into beehives.
    Do you really believe that Oxalic Acid Dihydrate with a fancy label is any different than commercial Wood Bleach ? Technical Grade is Technical Grade - if you want Analytical Grade you'd need to take out a second mortgage ...

    There's a world of different between students learning to synthesise organic chemicals in a lab, and industrial operations where chemicals are produced in bulk quantities by professionals who know exactly what they're doing.

    The impurities of Technical Grade Oxalic Acid Dihydrate are listed, and consist principally of heavy metals (not residual solvents), mainly Iron - as one would expect.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  7. #126
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    10,148

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    lj, is there a similar requirement in the uk regarding the removal of honey supers from the hive when applying oxalic acid?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #127
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    247

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Do you really believe that Oxalic Acid Dihydrate with a fancy label is any different than commercial Wood Bleach ? Technical Grade is Technical Grade - if you want Analytical Grade you'd need to take out a second mortgage ...

    There's a world of different between students learning to synthesise organic chemicals in a lab, and industrial operations where chemicals are produced in bulk quantities by professionals who know exactly what they're doing.

    The impurities of Technical Grade Oxalic Acid Dihydrate are listed, and consist principally of heavy metals (not residual solvents), mainly Iron - as one would expect.
    LJ
    This is interesting.

    The different OA options range in purity, and there's differences between manufacturers as well.

    IMO this is the biggest issue with Oxalic acid - we don't have any "food grade" quality OA.

    Just buckets of wood bleach, and products on Amazon with questionable origins.
    Last edited by username00101; 09-11-2019 at 08:12 AM.

  9. #128
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    5,197

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    FWIW: Savogran, reports that it's wood bleach is 99.7% pure...
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  10. #129
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    247

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    FWIW: Savogran, reports that it's wood bleach is 99.7% pure...
    Yes, but what's the origin?

    Is it some questionable country like China with zero quality control? Or is it made in a Laboratory in the US?

    Remember, this is a bucket of wood bleach. No one in China (or US probably) is going to care if they drop a bunch of contaminants in the batch - it's going to get sprayed on a deck, who cares, right?

    There's no inspections of the stuff, because it's not food or laboratory grade, just a bucket of wood bleach.

    Question: isn't it worth spending the extra money on laboratory/analytical grade OA?

    What's an extra $5-$10 to avoid Chinese industrial contaminants from that cheap bucket of wood bleach from Amazon or Home depot?

  11. #130
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    5,197

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Not sure of origin of Savogran WB, but I’ll call and ask.
    But what does it matter? 99.7% pure is 99.7% pure no matter.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  12. #131
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    247

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Here's the assay from AVANTOR PERFORMANCE MATERIALS for Oxalic acid: https://us.vwr.com/store/product/455...-acs-j-t-baker

    Assay (HOCOCOOH2H₂O) (by KMnO₄ titrn) 99.5 - 102.5 %
    Insoluble Matter ≤ 0.005 %
    Residue after Ignition ≤ 0.010 %
    Chloride (Cl) ≤ 0.002 %
    Sulfate (SO₄) ≤ 0.002 %
    Calcium (Ca)(by FES) ≤ 0.001 %
    Nitrogen Compounds (as N) ≤ 0.001 %
    Substances Darkened by Hot H₂SO₄ Passes Test
    Trace Impurities - ACS - Heavy Metals (as Pb) ≤ 5 ppm
    Trace Impurities - Iron (Fe) ≤ 2.0 ppm


    Please note that they don't provide a mass, so we don't really know the actual quantity. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the PPM are likely for the entire batch, say 500g?

    If so, that would mean for a normal application the amount of the contaminants entering the hive is for example: 5ppm/500 or so, which is essentially undetectable. Just note that the 2ppm for Iron is high. The EPA maximum recommendation is 3ppm of Iron for drinking water.

    Maybe someone with a good working knowledge could let us know.
    Last edited by username00101; 09-11-2019 at 08:15 AM.

  13. #132
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
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    4,012

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    IMO this is the biggest issue with Oxalic acid - we don't have any "food grade" quality OA.
    I would say the food grade is kinda implied for a single chemical like oxalic. They put it in baking powder which goes in food. I think they put it in hot dogs as a thing to keep the hot dogs fresh longer.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  14. #133
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    St. Charles, MO, USA
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    What I am trying to do is see what the difference is between spaced treatments year around that could be done as part of inspections normally carried out as against heavy summer treatments into fall once the mite load has been allowed to grow during the honey season. Now there is no point in having to remove and replace supers twice for treatments and as I use queen excluders anyhow using the shims which in fact are quite similar to a Cloake board all you are doing is preventing OAV and bees from crossing between the brood boxes and honey supers for 5 to 10 minutes while the treatment is taking place. As the majority of the mites will be on the nurse bees in the brood chamber I expect to keep the mite numbers low throughout the summer season. I will just have to wait and see.
    How has this worked out for you? Did you have any problems with inserting your board?

  15. #134
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Wow. I really thought that was my new and novel idea. I also put a coating of Tanglefoot around the perimeter of the bottom box--keeps the ants at bay.

  16. #135
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,716

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Unfortunately the demand for Easy Vaps made sure that I had not much time in the bee yards this spring and summer, so that setup awaits another day.
    Johno

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