OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Beekeepers by their nature seem to be a bit on the contrarian side, thus a discussion on methods that seems to meet the letter of the law while ignoring the intent. Or conversely seems to meet the intent while ignoring the letter. So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and pehaps should be. I would argue that once the vapors had subsided and the hive had aired out some, there was no longer a threat of exposure to the honey supers and they could be placed back on the hive.

    With regard to barriers, thank you Squarepeg for reminding us all that the use of a barrier is not an approved method of having the the supers not in place, isolation is not quite the same as removal.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and perhaps should be.
    excellent point jwp. in my view and insofar as it is not specifically addressed in the label it is an open question and your argument is as good as any.

    and to be clear, i am not arguing against any of the points made. nor i am trying to tell any beekeeper what to do or not do with their bees, never have and never will.

    my position has to do with maintaining content on the forum that is responsible and respects the rule of law.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #83
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    It is also accepted by most that the OA is gone by around day three as the bees work diligently to remove the substance from the hive.
    I have herd this said a LOT, dose any one have a study to back this? Seems like internet rumor.
    We know dribble persists for good while, but it also kills mites 3-4X longer then OAV to
    The distribution of oxalic acid dihydrate within a colony was shown by
    macro-computed tomography; it was rapid and consistent. The increased density of the individual
    bee was continuous for at least 14 days after the treatment indicating the presence of oxalic acid
    dihydrate in the hive even long after a treatment
    Rademacher Et Al 2017

    I would table the ALT that the Anhydrous OAV sucks up hive moisture and becomes dehydrate again, changing crystal size and type and rendering it invective at killing mites.
    Either way, I feel the idea that bee could some how pickup a crystal the size created by vaporizing and "diligently" remove it.... a bit far fetched here i it one bee
    Honeybee-coated-with-oxalate-crystals-300x259.png
    So a question does remain, if one follows the label and removes the honey supers prior to treating so they are not "in place", how long after treating do they need to remain not "in place" to comply with the intent? This is not part of the directions for use and perhaps should be.
    Yes, it should be (but OA got ramrodded threw)

    The label holders web site said 14 days
    in the approval letter the EPA said
    "
    Should you wish to add/retain a reference to the company’s website on your label, then please be
    aware that the website becomes labeling under the Federal Insecticide Fungicide and Rodenticide
    Act and is subject to review by the Agency. If the website is false or misleading, the product
    would be misbranded and unlawful to sell or distribute under FIFRA section 12(a)(1)(E). 40
    CFR 156.10(a)(5) list examples of statements EPA may consider false or misleading. In addition,
    regardless of whether a website is referenced on your product’s label, claims made on the
    website may not substantially differ from those claims approved through the registration process.
    Therefore, should the Agency find or if it is brought to our attention that a website contains false
    or misleading statements or claims substantially differing from the EPA approved registration,
    the website will be referred to the EPA’s Office of Enforcement and Compliance."
    https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf

    however we have more on the label, yes?
    it reads
    "Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present.
    so relay at no time it would be reasonable for super to be on and "most" of us to be using it

    And then there is the anti "course" of treatments statement
    " rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the
    same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of
    action each time before returning to a previously-used one."
    yes by the label you cant vape your bees 2-3-10-20 times in a row

    OAD is a powerful tool, the we should work hard to protect to continue to be powerfull

  5. #84
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    by the label you cant vape your bees 2-3-10-20 times in a row
    Nor are you allowed to vapourise from any position other than via the bottom of the hive, nor use any purity other than 97%.

    Seems that some changes to the label - or indeed to the legislation itself - is required.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #85
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I have herd this said a LOT, dose any one have a study to back this? Seems like internet rumor.
    We know dribble persists for good while, but it also kills mites 3-4X longer then OAV to
    Rademacher Et Al 2017

    I would table the ALT that the Anhydrous OAV sucks up hive moisture and becomes dehydrate again, changing crystal size and type and rendering it invective at killing mites.
    Either way, I feel the idea that bee could some how pickup a crystal the size created by vaporizing and "diligently" remove it.... a bit far fetched here i it one bee
    Honeybee-coated-with-oxalate-crystals-300x259.png

    Yes, it should be (but OA got ramrodded threw)

    The label holders web site said 14 days
    in the approval letter the EPA said
    " https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf

    however we have more on the label, yes?
    it reads
    so relay at no time it would be reasonable for super to be on and "most" of us to be using it

    And then there is the anti "course" of treatments statement
    " rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the
    same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of
    action each time before returning to a previously-used one."
    yes by the label you cant vape your bees 2-3-10-20 times in a row

    OAD is a powerful tool, the we should work hard to protect to continue to be powerfull
    I agree with your words questioning the vision of individual bees selecting and carting out the microcrystals of OA. First time I have seen it written. I think that scenario is a bit more a parable than a literal explanation.

    My take is that absorption of ambient moisture reduces the dust to an acidic film which the bees gradually and unintentionally pick up on their feet and body hairs. This gets blown or rubbed off in the course of their outside the colony activities. The huge surface area of a bees "fur" is an amazing mop!

    Reading Randy's articles researching the miticide effect of the contact with moist dissolved OA/Glycerine on assorted cellulose contact strips, suggests to me that the acidic film and not the microcrystal structure is the uptake method.

    There are hundreds of pages of posts on https://www.nzbees.net/forums/ about experience with this method. Also quite a bit of discussion on the facts, philosophy and legal implications regarding its effects on honey present. New Zealand's regulations are different than what we are subject to, so the conversation is somewhat different than ours. They are as aware as we are about image, legal, and marked implications but very focused on the necessity for practical solutions.
    Frank

  7. #86
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    Thanks.
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Ok, ok. The idea was not to suggest that any individual bee was purposefully picking up individual crystals of OA and carting them out, but that a mechanism was in place for them to remove the powder, much in the way that bees do not purposefully pick up individual grains of pollen yet somehow manage to collect an awful lot of it.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  9. #88
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Hi JWPalmer,
    Thanks for your reply. I live near Grafton, Ohio. I update my info on location.
    At this point I'm not going to harvest the honey and the bees are going to get all of it back for winter. I was wondering if you could send out a sample from each super and get it tested for the level of OA? That would make me feel better about giving it away if I knew the level of OA in the honey. I usually give most of my honey away and just don't want any issues with the OAV treatment being a problem with the honey. Do you know if the frames can be reused from the super of do I toss them? At this point I may be going back to teating next summer with MAQS.

    Thanks again for the reply..

  10. #89
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    2Dogs, I am not familiar with any particular labs that test for OA in honey. I am sure most small labs could do it if they knew what they were looking for, but at what cost? Even testing groundwater samples for trace metals was quite steep.
    Since you are feeding this honey to the bees it really isn't an issue. And remember that OA is found in the honey naturally so you would need to establish a baseline first to know how much came from treatments. Good news is that OA is not absorbed into or adsorbed onto the wax. Frames present during treatment would be safe to re use once emptied. I would not get too concerned, the arguments presented in the earlier posts regarding the oxalic acid concentrations in many of the foods we already enjoy are valid. The issue has more to do with obeying the law as written, and this website NOT advocating otherwise, than anything related to food safety.
    In a funny and ironic twist, I have already admitted to harvesting some honey from a hive that had received an OA treatment, yet I complied with the law. I am not marketing the honey and there were no honey supers present when I treated. However, the second brood box was solidly packed with cross combed and capped honey. I took half and gave the bees half. Ok, the bees took half. When I went to get the remaining honey, all I found was empty comb (help, I've been robbed). I processed over 2# of beeswax from this deep, but that is another story.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  11. #90
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    My take is that absorption of ambient moisture reduces the dust to an acidic film which the bees gradually and unintentionally pick up on their feet and body hairs. This gets blown or rubbed off in the course of their outside the colony activities. The huge surface area of a bees "fur" is an amazing mop!
    perhaps, I think biological break down is far more likely. But the mop effect is a key point against the idea that blocking supers for a few min will have a meaningful (but illeagle) effect

    Reading Randy's articles researching the miticide effect of the contact with moist dissolved OA/Glycerine on assorted cellulose contact strips, suggests to me that the acidic film and not the microcrystal structure is the uptake method.
    that is one way to look at its, however It is felt that OAV and dribble have different modes of action. Dribble has a longer effective killing period 2 weeks vs 2 days witch backs that up. If the acid film concept was true, I would expect to be able to just dust a spoon full on a hive or dribble with water not suryp. but neither of those seem to work.

  12. #91
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment.

    First, I fully agree with your post SP and we need to be careful when we openly discuss supplanting the law with our own judgment which we have little or no scientific evidence to support. However, I will, respectfully, push back somewhat on the statement I have quoted from you above.

    While you are correct that the label does not contain a provision for inserting a barrier, it also does not contain a provision for removing my supers and storing them in my garage 15 miles away before I treat with OAV. ALL the label prohibits is the use of this product while supers are “IN PLACE.” The label, nor the EPA, state what is required to legally DISPLACE your supers. Whether that be by 15 miles, or by 1/4 inch.

    I am not trying to be cute or pedantic about this. I am also not trying to read additional things into what the label requires, other than what is actually stated in the label. As beekeepers, we should FOLLOW THE LABEL.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    There is also an argument within the law in regards to "What would a reasonable person believe?" when it comes down to parsing the letter of the law.

    I believe the label means for us to remove the supers. JMHO

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  14. #93
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    good post psm1212 and no argument from me on anything you said.

    (and it's not like we have oxalic acid police patrolling our apiaries but...)

    would you suppose that the 'reasonable man' standard would apply were it become an issue?

    do the epa 'labelers' have a record of being 'reasonable'?

    would you be optimistic for a successful outcome if having to defend the use of a 1/4" displacement based on the fact that the label does not spell it out?

    as has been mentioned by others the label is lacking in many ways but for now it is what it is. i appreciate the feedback from you and from the others who have taken the time insofar as how we need to handle the issue with respect the content we display here on the forum.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #94
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Reasonable is keeping OA away from honey.

    Labor savings? Maybe, maybe not.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  16. #95
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    And I'll bet the EPA would spend a lot more money defending their position than any of us would, or could, for that matter.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  17. #96
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    And I'll bet the EPA would spend a lot more money defending their position than any of us would, or could, for that matter.

    Alex
    The truth is that the worst case normally is that your stuff would just be remove from being for sale. I guess that is money though. I just looked through a bunch of epa actions in Mo and I quit after a few of seeing that no fines were acessed. They do have more money to spend cause if they don't have enough they can get some taxes and get more. I am pretty sure they have bigger fish to fry like lead paint and asbestos.

    Having the epa is a good thing cause there needs to be some standards to try and live up to. They are like the bible, many try and live up to it but few really do.

    It is like speeding, You do 5 MPH over and it is mostly over looked but they frown on you doing 100, ask me how I know.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #97
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    would you suppose that the 'reasonable man' standard would apply were it become an issue?

    do the epa 'labelers' have a record of being 'reasonable'?

    would you be optimistic for a successful outcome if having to defend the use of a 1/4" displacement based on the fact that the label does not spell it out?
    I want to comply with both the spirit and the letter of the label. I truly see no difference in the following 2 scenarios:

    scenario 1: Insert barrier between brood chambers and super chambers Saturday evening and apply OAV. Sunday morning remove barrier.

    scenario 2: Remove honey supers to garage Saturday evening and apply OAV. Return them to the the hive Sunday morning.

    I do not see why the displacement in scenario 1 is any less effective than the displacement in scenario 2 with regard to honey exposure to OAV.

    Scenario 1 just seems like a smarter way of doing it. And, I keep a portion of my bees in the top boxes to keep my SHB at bay. If I take the supers to my garage, I will give the SHB a prime opportunity. I have no reason to think that the OAV somehow permeates the coroplast board that separates the chambers or the wooden sidewalls of the honey supers. I think too much importance is being placed on proximity and not enough on the effectiveness of the displacement of the supers.

  19. #98
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Use only in late fall or early spring when little
    or no brood is present. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
    might damage bee brood. Oxalic Acid
    Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in
    capped brood.
    Do not use when honey supers are in place
    to prevent contamination of marketable
    honey.
    Apply only when monitoring indicates
    treatment is required.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  20. #99
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    There is a whole bunch of violations when used as a summer preventive measure. "in place" is the specific wording debated here. Spent 20 years debating the meaning of DFARs and mil- specs. I do not believe supers separated by a barrier from the main body of the hive are "in place".
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by 2Dogs52 View Post
    Hi JWPalmer,
    Thanks for your reply. I live near Grafton, Ohio. I update my info on location.
    At this point I'm not going to harvest the honey and the bees are going to get all of it back for winter. I was wondering if you could send out a sample from each super and get it tested for the level of OA? That would make me feel better about giving it away if I knew the level of OA in the honey. I usually give most of my honey away and just don't want any issues with the OAV treatment being a problem with the honey. Do you know if the frames can be reused from the super of do I toss them? At this point I may be going back to teating next summer with MAQS.

    Thanks again for the reply..
    If you're going to send your honey to get tested for oxalic acid, you might as well send some tofu and almonds with that sample as well.

    What you'll find is that the tofu and almonds have nearly 10X the amount of OA as that sample of honey. Probably 100X if it's only a small sample of honey.

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