OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues
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  1. #1
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    Feb 2007
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    Latrobe, PA
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    Default OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    I had read that you CAN do oav treatment with honey supers on since there is some oxalic acid in honey. Can you tell me the reasons why it shouldn't be done? I would appreciate knowing...

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Well, if you wish to comply with the US EPA application regulations for oxalic acid as a varroa control, the honey supers should not be present. If you want to read the label / application instructions, here they are:
    https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf

    Look for the section that says ...
    USE RESTRICTIONS:
    ...
    ...
    Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.
    Even those that do not intend to comply with label restrictions should at least read the complete label. As the label also says, "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." That applies to every pesticide.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #3
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    Latrobe, PA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Thanks Rader, that's the info I wanted. So-- not with honey supers on...

  5. #4
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Something that seems (to me, at least; exercise your own judgement) to be a reasonable alternative is to physically block off the honey supers during the treatment. One way that could be done is to insert a piece of thin wood or plastic between the top brood box and the bottom honey super. You may be able to do that without actually having to remove the super(s). A piece of scrap 1/4" plywood should be the easiest to handle, or a piece of plexiglass comes to mind if you are prepared to buy something.


    Removing the honey supers (or blocking them off completely) has a practical benefit. The brood boxes (say two per hive) are a more consistent cubic volume than a brood area + a random number of supers. Having a more consistent volume makes it easier to apply a consistent dose of OAV per cubic inch of brood space.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 02-17-2019 at 10:18 AM. Reason: add more
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #5
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    Feb 2007
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    Latrobe, PA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Rader,
    Thanks for the option. I think I'll probably just use the oav when there are no honey supers on. But will keep your idea in the back of my brain in case something unusual comes up.

    Do you use formic acid at all and if so, when??

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Manning, SC
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    5,211

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    You could also "block" off the supers with newspaper. That way you don't have to remove the paper as the bees will chew through it and carry it out.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    I will be doing some trials on a number of hives this season where I will treat 6 hives with OAV every 2 weeks through the season, now to prevent the OAV from entering into my honey supers I have built some Imrie shims that include my Queen excluders. The shims have a 1/4" hole at the back and under the excluder so when I want to treat I will slip into the shim a board that will cover the excluder and thereby prevent the OAV from moving out of the brood boxes into the supers. The boards can be removed when the vapor has settled but while this is going on the workers still have access to the supers.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
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    dallas, tx, usa
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    154

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    I know that when the supers are blocked or removed no OA crystals will settle on them, but the hive can have 10s or thousands of bees that have crystals on them and they might be all over the hive after supers are available. Seems to me that OA will be moved around no matter what. I understand and will follow the rules because I don't want to take any chances but it just doesn't seem too logical.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Portland,Tennessee
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    13

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    If I "have to or need to" treat with supers on I just insert some cardboard between the supers & brood boxes. No particular reason for using cardboard except it is usually handy & free.

  11. #10
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    Feb 2006
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    Massillon, Ohio
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    I have a couple questions for those who insert some form of a barrier between the brood boxes and supers when doing an OAV treatment. I always treat with the supers off, so I'm just trying to get clarification on a couple of things I haven't been able to understand if this option is used.

    If treating with supers on, will a bee escape or fume board be used first to clear the supers of all the bees and then insert something under the supers when treating? If so, why not just clear the supers and then set them to the side while treating. The supers have to be removed anyway if a barrier will be added above the brood boxes.

    If the supers are not cleared first, then isn't it true that all of the potentially thousands of bees in the supers are not getting dusted with a good coating of OAV crystals from the treatment? I understand there is a residual effect for days following the treatment, but I wonder if it is enough to compensate for the lack of proper exposure on so many bees isolated from the initial treatment area.
    To everything there is a season....

  12. #11
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    What I am trying to do is see what the difference is between spaced treatments year around that could be done as part of inspections normally carried out as against heavy summer treatments into fall once the mite load has been allowed to grow during the honey season. Now there is no point in having to remove and replace supers twice for treatments and as I use queen excluders anyhow using the shims which in fact are quite similar to a Cloake board all you are doing is preventing OAV and bees from crossing between the brood boxes and honey supers for 5 to 10 minutes while the treatment is taking place. As the majority of the mites will be on the nurse bees in the brood chamber I expect to keep the mite numbers low throughout the summer season. I will just have to wait and see.

  13. #12
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    May 2016
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    Park County, Montana, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by aiannar974 View Post
    I know that when the supers are blocked or removed no OA crystals will settle on them, but the hive can have 10s or thousands of bees that have crystals on them and they might be all over the hive after supers are available. Seems to me that OA will be moved around no matter what. I understand and will follow the rules because I don't want to take any chances but it just doesn't seem too logical.
    There has been a smattering of research done and that research has found no appreciable difference in OA levels between supers left on and supers isolated from treatments. Research requires money and the EPA is erring on the safe side of things. They make the rules and until someone does a study the EPA will consider credible, and then hem and haw for a decade it is the way it is.

    Lee
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    I want to treat all the bees, I don't want to treat the supers. So, the day before I set a bee escape board under the supers. tTe next morning I lift the supers and slide in a plastic board and set the supers back down.

    Treat. Leave things be for an hour or so.

    Remove the supers, remove the plastic board, remove the bee escape board.

    Reassemble, w/o bee escape or plastic.

    Repeat four days later (placing bee escape on the day before treatment.)

    Even though I don't take any honey except a modest amount for my own use, and I do believe the research that seems to show the increase is minimal, I go through this process. but I have far fewer hives than commercial or sideliner beekeepers, so I can afford the time it takes. I decided to ignore the possibility that OA crystals were moved to the honey supers after the treatment.

    The main problem with OAV-ing with supers on is that you are also likely to have a good deal of capped brood in the hive at the same time. And the majority of the mites in the hive at the time of the treatment maybe sojourning with the pupae under the cappings and thus protected from the effects of the OA. So you are extracting the same biological cost from the adult bees, with less to show for it in terms of killing mites. The biological cost to the adult bees and the colony, as a whole, is probably very modest, but it is not zero. I prefer to try and manage my mite-killing affairs at times when each of the chemicals are best suited to the time/season at the moment. For summer treatment I use formic acid. This is not hard in my northern-summer climate. I usually can identify a one-week interval with suitable temps. And the bonus with formic is you get a "free" whack at any tracheal mites that are lingering around.

    Nancy

  15. #14
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grins View Post
    There has been a smattering of research done and that research has found no appreciable difference in OA levels between supers left on and supers isolated from treatments. Research requires money and the EPA is erring on the safe side of things. They make the rules and until someone does a study the EPA will consider credible, and then hem and haw for a decade it is the way it is.

    Lee
    If I remember correctly Randy Oliver is working with the EPA and doing OAV with supers on to see if it's ok to change the label.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  16. #15
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    If I remember correctly Randy Oliver is working with the EPA and doing OAV with supers on to see if it's ok to change the label.
    Wow, that's good to know, thanks!

    Lee
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    He is working with an extended release appuaction, OA/Gly impregnated in paper towel, not OAV

  18. #17
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    He is working with an extended release appuaction, OA/Gly impregnated in paper towel, not OAV
    yes and also the OAV,
    >
    > >I'm not sure why anyone would worry about trace amounts of oxalic acid in
    > honey.


    I and my collaborators are currently in the process of collecting honey
    samples for submission to EPA and FDA. They will add to quite a number of
    studies that have previously found that OA applied for mite treatments
    doesn't add enough residues to honey to be of any concern.

    --
    Randy Oliver
    Grass Valley, CA
    www.ScientificBeekeeping.com
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Chicago, ILL. USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    To add on to what Radar said, legally you should only use oxalic acid powder that has been purchased from Brushy Mountain or has Brushy Mountain label on it, since that's what has been approved for in-hive use for varroa mite control. Brushy Mountain has closed and I haven't heard anything concrete about anyone else in the US selling an EPA approved oxalic acid treatment.

  20. #19
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    Fayette, Missouri, usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Give me a break! oxalic acid is oxalic acid . period.
    9 hives - 10 years (also had 7 hives in early 1970's) T as needed - zone 6

  21. #20
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    May 2016
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    Park County, Montana, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by cdevier View Post
    Give me a break! oxalic acid is oxalic acid . period.
    Can you support that assertion with scientific data?

    Lee
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

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