OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Mar 2015
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    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Psm and Gww,

    I agree with both of you, but laws are not passed to keep honest people honest. They are passed so that those who stray too far past the line can be stopped and punished.
    I guess if there were no rules against treating with OA while supers are in place then a person who does so would then be required to change their label to read, "Honey with Oxalic Acid added. Oh, well.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

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  3. #102
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    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    "to keep honest people honest". But let's be honest, there are not that many honest people.

    Honest: Only used as a clean up after another product.
    Only used after mite count test.
    Only used when brood is not present.
    Only used by removing honey during winter broodless period.
    Only used by removing honey from brood boxes as well as supers to prevent any honey being moved to "marketable honey " frames.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  4. #103
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    Covington County, Alabama, USA
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    1,508

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    This whole issue needs to be resolved by beekeepers. If Oxalic Acid is going to be the new mainstay treatment, and not the latest fad in treatments, it is time to get our state and regional beekeeping associations active on this issue.

    It is unclear what, if any, impact or contamination to honey occurs when oxalic acid is applied in a hive. The EPA’s approved methodology does not indicate that oxalic acid treatments with honey supers in place are harmful to honey, to bees or to humans who might consume it. The approved methodology only indicates that the EPA was not requested to approve, as a method of application, treatments with honey supers in place. Therefore, the EPA did not and that is the label and the law. There is no question about the current status of the law.

    However, it is time to establish, through controlled, peer-reviewed, scientific study, whether the treatment of honey bee hives with oxalic acid has any negative effects on honey. This determination will serve beekeepers in a number of ways.

    In the event studies indicate a negative impact of oxalic acid treatments to honey, such a determination would serve to disabuse beekeepers of any notion that exposure of oxalic acid to honey is safe and to discourage beekeepers from any “off-label” uses of oxalic acid in honey bee hives.

    In the event studies indicate the absence of any negative impacts of oxalic acid treatments to honey, beekeepers could begin the process of petitioning the EPA to amend its approved methodology to allow oxalic acid treatments with honey supers in place.

    There is no money to be made in the sale of OA to beekeepers. Therefore, no one is going to do our work for us.

    We need to organize and collaborate through our local, state and regional associations to work with entomology departments and bee labs at universities to take on these studies and start gathering dependable data. Collectively, it would not be hard to raise enough money and bees to at least fund some of these basic studies.

  5. #104
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    England, UK
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    1,442

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    If you're going to send your honey to get tested for oxalic acid, you might as well send some tofu and almonds with that sample as well.

    What you'll find is that the tofu and almonds have nearly 10X the amount of OA as that sample of honey. Probably 100X if it's only a small sample of honey.
    These guys write:
    Test results reveal the oxalic acid concentration in honey from treated colonies was in the range of 22.8 - 37.7 mg / kg while results from untreated colonies showed a concentration from 20 - 400mg / kg. Therefore, treated colonies can be seen to have a lower concentration of oxalic acid than untreated. http://www.heilysertechnology.com/oxalic.html
    Needless to say, I find that reaching such a conclusion to be extremely dubious, even suspicious - but an interesting enough result for all that.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #105
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    4,741

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Nah, we wouldn't do any of those things! I use one vaporization as a mite counting device before I begin the OAV treatments.

    I think the label may be changed or become common knowledge that it will not be enforced to the letter. At the present time that is not the case though.

    I am not tempted since a spring treatment keeps mite levels well below common treatment levels. No fall flow to speak of so the supers are off plenty early to get the mites down for winter preps. Some peoples situations though could sorely tempt them otherwise. Following New Zealands beekeepers is an education for me. I expect much of the US has similar conditiions.
    Frank

  7. #106
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    gww posts this on another thread:

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...33#post1753633

    may provide 'cover' for those employing the 'barrier' method.


    psm1212 nails it in his post #103
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #107
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    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    246

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxal...-2-of-2-parts/

    The above article by Randy Oliver reiterates that Europeans readily use OA Vaporization.

    Apparently, OA vaporization is used "throughout the summer", which interpreted with common sense, is a statement that Europeans treat their hives with honey supers present throughout the entire summer with OAV.

  9. #108
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    Feb 2015
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    Rosebud Missouri
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    There have been studies posted in other threads on this site. Most show what lj posted. No increase above what is naturally in honey. Randy Oliver is studying the effect in his shop towel method which has the stuff in the hive for up to 60 days. He is petitioning for use with honey supers on and last time I ask, said the results were showing no increase in honey or wax.

    Nobody is going to spend the money and time to get approval on something that is not being looked at by an enforcement agency when they have no avenue to make their money back.

    At some point in time a person has to use some common sense on what is likely to happen in this situation. Some have did that already and like square peg said, given reasonable cover to others on something that there is enough evidence in studies to be a victimless crime even if committed.

    A similar thing would be along the lines of, you could use dish soap and baking soda as a cleaning agent and it would be legal but if your purpose was to kill ants and fungus, it would be illegal even if used in the same place.

    You have a responsibility to sell a good product and due diligents is warranted but if the science is there that says this is naturally occurring level and this action will not cause this to be exceeded and that was the intent of the law to be there in the first place, prosecution would be highly unlikely.

    The "would a reasonable person" be able to read the law in this fashion would be met in my mind.

    I do know that oxilic was being used before there was a label and its approval was to bring in line what was already happening. When the question came down to it, it was, does the science say prosecute or approve and we all know what happened. It was not being prosecuted before the label but somebody jumping through hoops made that official. The incentive to jump through those hoops is not very high though due to the pain involved in dealing with the bureaucracy. I have never put anything in my hives but will not feel bad if I decide to use oxalic if I ever feel the need. It has been tested enough to give me comfort that I can live by the creed, cause no harm to others.
    cheers
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 09-09-2019 at 09:29 PM.
    zone 5b

  10. #109
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    Apr 2019
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    Northeast PA
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    246

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    There have been studies posted in other threads on this site. Most show what lj posted. No increase above what is naturally in honey. Randy Oliver is studying the effect in his shop towel method which has the stuff in the hive for up to 60 days. He is petitioning for use with honey supers on and last time I ask, said the results were showing no increase in honey or wax.

    Nobody is going to spend the money and time to get approval on something that is not being looked at by an enforcement agency when they have no avenue to make their money back.

    At some point in time a person has to use some common sense on what is likely to happen in this situation. Some have did that already and like square peg said, given reasonable cover to others on something that there is enough evidence in studies to be a victimless crime even if committed.

    A similar thing would be along the lines of, you could use dish soap and baking soda as a cleaning agent and it would be legal but if your purpose was to kill ants and fungus, it would be illegal even if used in the same place.

    You have a responsibility to sell a good product and due diligents is warranted but if the science is there that says this is naturally occurring level and this action will not cause this to be exceeded and that was the intent of the law to be there in the first place, prosecution would be highly unlikely.

    The "would a reasonable person" be able to read the law in this fashion would be met in my mind.

    I do know that oxilic was being used before there was a label and its approval was to bring in line what was already happening. When the question came down to it, it was, does the science say prosecute or approve and we all know what happened. It was not being prosecuted before the label but somebody jumping through hoops made that official. The incentive to jump through those hoops is not very high though due to the pain involved in dealing with the bureaucracy. I have never put anything in my hives but will not feel bad if I decide to use oxalic if I ever feel the need. It has been tested enough to give me comfort that I can live by the creed, cause no harm to others.
    cheers
    gww
    It would not surprise me if OAV did not add any measurable OA to the honey.

    The previous thread on calculations represents a conservative MAXIMUM contamination of approximately 25mg OA /lb of honey. In which case, the worst case scenario is that a pound of honey has less OA than a mixed salad with almonds. A serving of tofu has 5-10X more OA contamination than 1lb of honey. Soy milk has 5-10X more OA than a pound of honey. etc etc etc.

  11. #110
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    cumulative contamination with multiple treatments, toxic impurities in the wood bleach, ect ect ect.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #111
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    Apr 2019
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    Northeast PA
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    246

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    toxic impurities in the wood bleach, ect ect ect.
    This is an important point. The source of the OA is quite important. For example, I wouldn't treat my bees with any "wood bleach" sold on Amazon, or any "wood bleach" I could purchase at home depot etc, etc etc.

  13. #112
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    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    It's the public perception.
    Nobody is buying a $10 jar of honey because they need it.
    Buy local, support the farmer, save the bees, a bit of mystique.

    More fragile than we want to believe. Pretty simple step to protect everyone. I would feel a bit selfish to go over the line. Know the line is simply where I choose to draw it for myself.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  14. #113
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    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Let me write the lead in to my expose':

    Toxic EPA regulated chemical found in Honey!

    Wood bleach, that chemical used to strip your deck has been found in that "all natural" honey you have been feeding to your children. Local beekeeper secretly caught on film spraying it into his hives. The very same hives he has been selling contaminated honey from at local Farmer's Markets as all natural.

    You take it from there explaining on the internet that is perfectly safe.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  15. #114
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    BEES DEAD!
    No honey at the farmers market this year due to fears of helping the distressed bee population.

    Even thought an organic substance found in many of the foods eaten daily would have saved the bees, local bee keepers refused to use them causing massive die offs. Now for the treat of having the natural sweetness of honey grown locally, the price has went from $10 to $40. No bees will be visiting your gardens this year. Did this happen on purpose so that bee keepers could increase the price of what has been a treat to many. Is it fair to threaten our food sources in the name of price increases?

    Foreign, chemical and syrup laced honey can still be found at your local big box store.

    This has been a investigative service provided by your best source of local news.
    Just saying
    gww

    Ps Salty, yours is better cause you had film footage.
    Last edited by gww; 09-10-2019 at 08:44 AM.
    zone 5b

  16. #115
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    gotta wonder what the 3% inert ingredients are...

    and what traces of toxins might remain from the manufacturing process.

    not totally fair to compare this product to naturally occurring oxalic acid...
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #116
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    5,197

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Savogran states their product is 99.7% pure.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  18. #117
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #118
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Square...
    Oxalic being natural in honey, the same question could be ask of that process and if it is different when the bees do it or the same as what is manufactured as far as specific impurities are concerned. Is it a simple mathematical thing or a process thing?

    Since it is used in things like baking powder, I would think the concern of impurities during the manufacturing process and inert ingredients would have already been addressed if cause for concern. I do understand that there are several ways to manufacture oxalic.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #119
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    back when i was a student in organic chemistry lab we used all kinds of solvents when 'manufacturing' and 'purifying' compounds.

    some of them were quite toxic and working under vented hoods and with personal protective gear was required.

    the small percentage of 'impurities' in a final product frequently contain traces of these solvents.

    i don't know what chemicals are used when manufacturing the oxalic acid sold for this application, but it's conceivable that the removal of honey supers could have something to do with them.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  21. #120
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    Default Re: OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues

    Square..
    From everything I can read with my education level being so low, it seems that the three percent would be made up of nitrate, calcium, sodium, sulfate and iron with calcium and iron being the hardest to remove.

    I truly believe the removal of the supers has more to do with the authorization process and added cost and time then it does with the harm. You get what you ask and work for.
    cheers
    gww

    Ps There are higher purity rates with some of the wood bleach then there is with the stuff labeled for bees.
    zone 5b

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