OAV with honey supers/Fall Extraction Blues - Page 4
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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Wharton, Texas, USA
    Posts
    229

    Default

    I live on the Texas coast and my honey 100% capped runs at 18%. You can search and find some just naturally holds more moisture. I think clover can safely go up to 20%. If all your local buddy’s are having there’s at 17% and your at 18-19 maybe you do have an issue but 18 might be your normal and it should be fine mine has never done any kind of fermenting at that level. One year I tried drying the supers as some suggested and that honey crystallized within a few weeks although that could just be coincidental.
    Last edited by amk; 08-28-2019 at 06:01 PM.

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  3. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Butler Co, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    446

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    I just store the supers wet. Eliminate that issue altogether.
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

  4. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Fultonville,New York,USA
    Posts
    697

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    My last batch of honey i put it in a small room with a dehumidifier for a couple day's. Stirring it occasionally got it down to 16%

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot1d View Post
    Every year I have the same two issues in the fall. The honey is above 18% but I have to get it off the hives to treat and I can't get the bees out of the supers. I started some robbing at one yard yesterday now I have to return the supers to clean them up. When I put them on the hives they condense the honey and keep filling them so I have to fight them to get them off all over again.

    Is it too crazy to let them rob them out under a tarp in a community garden? Am I still going to have a mess of bees eating wax and not wanting to get off the combs?

    Some of the honey is at 19%. Any tricks to get the moisture down? I used my grow light last year but it was a pain.
    One option is to switch to OAV, safe to use with honey present.

    Or formic acid.

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    1,638

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    One option is to switch to OAV, safe to use with honey present.
    Curious where you get that idea ? Do you have a reference link to a pesticide registration that says it's safe to expose Oxalic Acid Vapour to a food product during production ?

    From the CHC website, folks who are holders of the registration and own the label in Canada, from which the American approval was drawn directly.

    https://www.honeycouncil.ca/document...004Nov2010.pdf

    ==========
    DIRECTIONSFOR USE

    CAUTION: Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in capped brood. Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present. Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.

    ==========

    Note the part about 'Do not use when honey supers are present'.

    The constant bad advice and 'I know better than the folks who registered the product' attitude around here really devalues this site.

    I produce a food crop for sale. We use Oxalic Acid in our colonies, it's a registered pesticide. There is no way in hades I would expose myself to the potential liability of selling a food product that has been improperly exposed to a pesticide by applying Oxalic Acid with honey supers on when the product label specifically prohibits that use.

  7. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Curious where you get that idea ? Do you have a reference link to a pesticide registration that says it's safe to expose Oxalic Acid Vapour to a food product during production ?

    From the CHC website, folks who are holders of the registration and own the label in Canada, from which the American approval was drawn directly.

    https://www.honeycouncil.ca/document...004Nov2010.pdf

    ==========
    DIRECTIONSFOR USE

    CAUTION: Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in capped brood. Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present. Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.

    ==========

    Note the part about 'Do not use when honey supers are present'.

    The constant bad advice and 'I know better than the folks who registered the product' attitude around here really devalues this site.

    I produce a food crop for sale. We use Oxalic Acid in our colonies, it's a registered pesticide. There is no way in hades I would expose myself to the potential liability of selling a food product that has been improperly exposed to a pesticide by applying Oxalic Acid with honey supers on when the product label specifically prohibits that use.
    It's safe to use, even if government uses words like pesticide, etc. Not approved for use. Probably a bad thing if big government catches someone doing it.

    Please see https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...y-calculations

    Bottom line: OA vape treatment makes a pound of honey less "dangerous" than a serving of tofu.

    Just to reiterate: OA vaporization is technically classified as a pesticide by the government. Which is a law, but it's not accurate. I won't go into the rhetoric of debating classifications and government organizations etc.

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    grozzie is 100% correct on this.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,753

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    I am with grozzie on this too. That said, I have about a gallon and a half of honey that I harvested after treating with OAV. It is for personal consumption only and will not be sold or given away. At some point I imagine that the instuctions for use will change to reflect what most of us believe to be true, but until then, we all need to follow law. Sounds pretty simple to me.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  10. #69
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    1,638

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    It's safe to use, even if government uses words like pesticide, etc. Not approved for use. Probably a bad thing if big government catches someone doing it.
    Everyone has to do their own risk analysis for how they proceed in various parts of life. If one is not selling a product, then there is little / no potential liability exposure. If one has no assets to protect, then liability is just an abstract concept. We sell our honey, and we do have a substantial asset base against which a liability judgement could apply. Not worth it to put my entire farm at risk over something as small as proper mite treatments. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Kirksville, Missouri USA
    Posts
    1,759

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    I started the small room and dehumidifier this year and I also would say yes to that. I have a small back porch, 7 x 8, and put the supers I take off out there on a small tarp and run the dehumidifier. Capped or no I take what I need to take and when. It makes life much easier and dried down easy in two days. The room gets below 50% and about 95 degrees. Warm honey extracts better too.

  12. #71
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,746

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Promoting treating with supers on:

    Doing something to yourself is one thing; trying to drum up support to have others do it crosses into different territory. The possible effects on the public perception of honey's natural purity would be impossible to estimate. The potential costs to that image may fall on others, so the right to free speech is not unlimited.

    I am no stickler for always following the letter of the law but there are times and places where it is probably much better to stay mum about ones deviations.
    Frank

  13. #72
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Skaneateles, NY
    Posts
    938

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    im in the same boat every year. I just give a round of formic pro and give them a little more time to cap the honey. Still a good flow going in upstate NY.
    If you plan on leaving the honey for the bees and need to treat with them on then you need to use a Rx which is ok with the supers on.
    If not and you want to use apivar/OAV or whatever then those supers become part of the permanent brood nest in my book.

  14. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Grafton Township, OH
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Hi Everyone,
    I have a few questions on the OAV subject and maybe someone watching this post can answer or give direction as to where to look for solid answers on this. I have two hives with two medium honey supers on each. Every time I treated the bees I pulled the supers off. I was doing the 3 treatments for 21 day method. I got one hive with two treatments so far and the other with one treatment. I did some reading and found a post from Perfect Bee that you need to wait 14 days before placing the honey supers back on. Out of my 4 Supers 2 were all Capped honey but 2 were not before I started treatment. I placed my honey supers back on 15 minutes after each treatment. At this point I'm sure the bees have tracked the OA back into the 2 supers with uncapped honey cells. Do I have any way to test the honey to see if I have OA level problems with my honey or should I dump 4 honey supers full of honey? I'm in my second year of bee keeping and have learned a great deal from taking local classes and reading post on this site. My local bee instructor told us to pull the supers off treat with OAV and place back on after a 15 minute wait time. Did I make a huge screw up on my part? I treated last year with MAQS and had issues with a lot of dead bees from treatment. The bees made it thru the winter but I was nervous about having queen issues with using MAQS. Thanks for looking and just wondering if there is any solid information out there on this?

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,753

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    This is a topic in which there is a whole lot more opinion and conjecture than hard data. Fourteen days seems way too long to wait and 15 minutes way too short. When treating with OAV it is generally recommended to keep the hive closed up for the 10 minutes or so that the micro crystals are circulating around the hive. So off-hand I would guess that you have not gained much by slapping the supers back on in 15 minutes. It is also accepted by most that the OA is gone by around day three as the bees work diligently to remove the substance from the hive. I would consider that the longest you would need to wait. Practically, I imagine an hour or two is all that is needed. But, this is an opinion and does not have any scientific data to back it up.

    Also, your location is listed as Grafton. Which state? Google maps came up with several possibilities. Where I am, honey supers are pulled long before the first round of OAV is applied.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  16. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Rutland County, Vermont,USA
    Posts
    2,141

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Promoting treating with supers on:

    Doing something to yourself is one thing; trying to drum up support to have others do it crosses into different territory. The possible effects on the public perception of honey's natural purity would be impossible to estimate. The potential costs to that image may fall on others, so the right to free speech is not unlimited.

    I am no stickler for always following the letter of the law but there are times and places where it is probably much better to stay mum about ones deviations.
    THIS

  17. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Hartford Ohio
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    Another for formic and wait.

  18. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    5,585

    Default Re: Fall Extraction Blues

    I'll second aran's suggestion. I've had the same issue with too much uncapped honey in the supers late in the season including this year, but putting off treatments is risky if you want to get your colonies prepared for winter. Formic Pro seems to be the answer for me now.
    I used to use OAV exclusively year round but in the fall the timing is difficult, here at least, to get all the supers off before doing a series of treatments at the correct time. For a couple seasons now I've been using OAV in "late" fall after the supers are off to clean up any mites from robbing, and also a single treatment in winter when broodless. Formic is a great mite knock down in "early" fall at the most critical time, before supers are pulled.
    Take the high road and resist using OAV with uncapped supers on the hives. Our reputations are at stake.
    To everything there is a season....

  19. #78
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."

    "READ THIS LABEL: Read the entire label. This product must be used strictly in accordance with this label’s precautionary statements and use directions, as well as with all applicable State and Federal laws and regulations."

    "USE RESTRICTIONS:

    Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey."

    cite: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf


    like it or not, agree with it or not, fuzzy math disproven or not, at this point in time this label is the law and none of the above will exempt you from the consequences should you be found in violation of it.

    notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment.

    comments, suggestions, and/or advice given here on the forum that is contradictory to these label restrictions (thereby promoting the violation of u.s. federal law) in my view is crossing a line with respect to promoting responsible content here on the forum.

    going forward any such content will be edited.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #79
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Park County, Montana, USA
    Posts
    463

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."

    "READ THIS LABEL: Read the entire label. This product must be used strictly in accordance with this label’s precautionary statements and use directions, as well as with all applicable State and Federal laws and regulations."

    "USE RESTRICTIONS:

    Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey."

    cite: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf


    like it or not, agree with it or not, fuzzy math disproven or not, at this point in time this label is the law and none of the above will exempt you from the consequences should you be found in violation of it.

    notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment.

    comments, suggestions, and/or advice given here on the forum that is contradictory to these label restrictions (thereby promoting the violation of u.s. federal law) in my view is crossing a line with respect to promoting responsible content here on the forum.

    going forward any such content will be edited.
    Squarepeg, what are the consequences?
    5 Production colonies, 1 side by side 5 frame nuc for support- 7 working queens is all I want.

  21. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: OAV with honey supers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grins View Post
    Squarepeg, what are the consequences?
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/170.9
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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