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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Plannerwgp View Post
    I am always interested in the discussions regarding Oxalic Acid treatment and wonder how individuals using this chemical protect themselves from the dangers associated with the use of it. I was about to purchase a vaporizer and then read the warning labels regarding OA and decided I would prefer to protect my health over that of the bees. I am currently looking for other treatments that may be less damaging to my health. The use of OA does require a respirator, protective clothing and gloves. That sort of tells you that you're dealing with a serious chemical that may damage your health if you don't properly protect yourself. I hope you all protect yourself, and read the labels before using.
    You only need Personal Protection Equipment if you 'get up close and personal' to the hive being treated. If you operate the dosing equipment from a modest distance away - and upwind of the hive - then you don't need to take any precautions.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    You only need Personal Protection Equipment if you 'get up close and personal' to the hive being treated. If you operate the dosing equipment from a modest distance away - and upwind of the hive - then you don't need to take any precautions.
    LJ
    ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! A shift in the wind could have you breathing a lung full that you’ll take to your grave with you. A full face respirator is best as it protects lungs and eyes. That said, wearing protective gear makes using OA very safe. We use masks for lots of duties from cutting the grass to spray painting. It’s no more than a slight inconvenience.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    How I treat and what works for me

    When I pull my honey supers after the nectar flow has ended but no later than late July, early August, I begin an OAV treatment regimen. Why? Because, for me, at that time, the mites are either just beginning or are already outbreeding the bees. Since OAV only kills phoretic mites (not mites in brood under cappings) you need to do multiple treatments to kill those mites that were in those capped cells during the treatments and will emerge with the brood. You need the OAV treatment to cover that emerging brood cycle. A regimen of treating every 7th
    day for 3 weeks is ok for many. Better yet is a treatment every 5th day for 4 weeks. Outstanding is a treatment of every 5thday for 5 weeks.


    A 1% infestation based on a wash or sugar roll in mid- July left unchecked, is a dead hive in October or November, they just don’t know it yet.

    You may say some of those regimes don’t cover the brood cycle. You’d be correct
    IF OA only killed on day of treatment. However, OA has a lingering effect. OA will continue to kill until the bees (who see the OA crystals as trash) carry them out. Studies have shown that OA resides in the hive for + -3 days when bees are flying. OA lasts and kills mites much longer if applied in cooler weather when the bees are not flying to carry the OA crystals out.

    Mites do not immediately emerge with brood and re-enter a cell about to be capped to breed. They remain phoretic 4-14 days. During this time, they get their hair curled and nails painted in preparation for breeding! Not really, this time of the mites outside the cell gives an OAV treatment the opportunity to destroy them in a phoretic stage. Once you’ve completed the treatment regimen you need to test that it was effective enough. A single OAV treatment within days (maybe 5-7) after your last OAV treatment (this time with a sticky board) will show all you need to know after looking at the resulting mite drop. If that mite drop is heavy, you need to continue with OAV treatments until the mite drop is extremely low.


    A question you might ask....

    Why, when I did my sticky board test, am I (if you are) still seeing a high mite count? Didn’t OAV work? A mite coming into contact with OA will die. That’s a known fact. So why are you possibly still seeing a high mite drop?



    Two very probable answers.


    1. Drift from untreated hives and
    2. (which is really a part of answer 1 and is what Randy Oliver and others call “mite bombs.”




    What are MB’s? They are collapsing nearby hives. Your bees are raiding them for honey stores (thus picking up and bringing back mites) AND/OR the bees from the collapsing hive(s) are absconding from their dying, mite infested hive and entering yours with mites attached. Unfortunately, neither of these events can you control. Thus if in your test, you see a heavy mite count, continue to treat.
    Ok, you’ve treated until you have a very low mite count. Now what?

    You do
    another
    treatment in very late autumn or early winter when your hive is at its lowest brood point. Studies have shown treating one time at this time when all or almost all the mites are phoretic (since there is no brood for mites to enter and breed) will kill an astounding 97% or better of ALL the mites in the hive! Why not 100%. There are always those mites that manage to avoid coming into contact with OA.

    Ok, now what? You’ve this basically mite free hive. The NEXT treatment is what I call my “feel good treatment.” In spring, with a great queen and tons of bees and brood ready to collect nature’s bounty and right before I place my supers, I do my “feel good treatment.” It’s a one OAV shot, that just makes me feel good that I’ve done all that I can to keep my mite count on bees low.

    This OAV schedule works for me and OA is all I use to control mites. The key is multiple treatments and doing them timely. You miss a day or days during a multiple treatment regimen, you’re giving mites the opportunity to enter cells about to be capped to breed.

    If you’ve not treated at all, have a full hive & are just now purchasing a vaporizer. Start NOW with a 5 or 7 day regimen. (Remember, per the EPA, you cannot treat with the supers on.) If you’ve supers in place either remove them for the treatment (replace 10 minutes thereafter) or place some newspaper between the brood chamber and supers. You need not remove the newspaper as the bees will discard it for you!

    If you’ve just purchased a package, best practice is to hive it and vaporize one time when you see eggs/larvae but
    before
    the cells are capped! That’ll kill the phoretic mites and you’ll have a “mite free” hive to start.


    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! A shift in the wind could have you breathing a lung full that you’ll take to your grave with you. A full face respirator is best as it protects lungs and eyes. That said, wearing protective gear makes using OA very safe. We use masks for lots of duties from cutting the grass to spray painting. It’s no more than a slight inconvenience.
    Some of us have been using VOA since before most of you guys ever heard of it. Are you seriously telling me that if the operator is standing 30 feet away - or 60 feet away - then they're still at risk ? The devices you sell are the 'up close and personal' bits of kit I was referring to. I don't use those.
    LJ

    By the way - you can't take a lungful - it's impossible.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Lj,
    To each his own. I just don’t think it’s wise to promote (especially to those who are not experienced) using a product that could cause harm without protection. A few simple precautions never hurt.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  7. #26
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    Thumbs Up Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by dphillipm View Post
    ...1st the powder turns to a liquid then boils off into a vapor. At what point does the acid turn into a useless vapor that doesn’t kill the mites? ...
    THIS Video answers your questions about temperatures and oxalic acid. 373 degrees F is the point that OA vaporizes into formic acid and CO2. HTH
    Last edited by Lburou; 07-04-2019 at 07:17 PM.
    ...We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are...

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Gone are the days when most folks were reared to have a little common sense, most of the folks talking about this dangerous materiel had better not go swimming cause the water that you guys are going to breathe in is surely going to do you in. On the other hand I always wear my mask, a paper 3M 8511 when I am treating my hives inside of a closed room so there you are. Dangerous stuff indeed if you are accident prone or downright negligent, I was thinking of saying stupid but what kind of folks play with insects that sting the crap out of you so I will withdraw that word.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    I may be just a little on the crazy side because I enjoy going out to play with nearly a million stinging insects in my backyard. But, I am not crazy enough to use my Provap110 without a mask. Well, ok, I was stupid enough to try it once.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    When I first got my vaporizer, I did not use a respirator. I would stand far from the hives and when I did go to pull the vaporizer out of the hive, to be safe I would hold my breath. Once I got my first whiff, I immediately went on amazon and bought the respirator. PLEASE... learn from my mistake and use one.

    As far as the treatment schedule goes, what works here, may not work for you. I treat 4 times, 5 days apart starting the first week in August. I then treat once the first or second week in December. That is it. I had only one loss last winter and no losses this winter.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    How does dipping it in water hurt it? I got one for $69 http://www.blueridgebeecompany.com/s...Vaporizer.html
    and dipping it in water hasn't hurt it yet, done it 10+ times now I guess.
    NCSBA Certified Beekeeper - my Youtube Vlog
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4y..._as=subscriber

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    There is more to the OA story than the video Lburou put up. First of all if there was not a water molecule locked into the OA I doubt that you would have a Provap or Easy Vap. It is the boiling off of this water that creates the pressure that forces out the OA vapor which condenses as it leaves the outlet. One can talk about temperatures all you like but the surface temperature where the boiling off and sublimation takes place is a skin temperature and is probably much lower than the temperature shown by the thermocouple. the thicker the bottom of the bowl is the higher will be the difference in actual to measured temperature. Furthermore Latent heat plays a major factor here as you actually get chemicals that have locked in water mlecules that are used as flame retardentd as when that molecule boils off it cools the surface of the chemical and tends to slow down combustion, so my guess is that the boiling off of the water in OA tends to cool the OA to some degree.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Can someone link to the correct respirator to use via amazon?

    What about eye protection, if I have glasses is that good enough?

  14. #33
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    South Hamilton, MA
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Any advice on dose (per medium box), round duration, interval time, times of year, or heating hives would help.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

    With limited clinical research, here is what I am considering for the treatment variables.

    round duration:
    1. According to the above link, the maximum time for a bee to live in a cell is 25 days. In winter, its 21 days. Ignoring immigrants, if the treat round starts and ends >25 days apart (>21 in winter), all mites should be treated.
    2. Can the first dose kill mites in eggs and larvae? If yes, a shorter duration to cover the pupal stage makes sense. Is a stronger first dose needed for this?

    I don't know what the minimum frequency should be.
    This data should help:
    1. the time from egg laid to when the mite is likely to enter the larvae
    2. the lifespan of a treatment

    Heating hives: I have screened bottom boards. According to my hardiness zone, the yearly low temp averages -5 to 0 deg. F. I could put a heater between the screen and drawer and heat to a certain temp with the goal of loosening the cluster before winter treatment.

    my beliefs:
    1. TF (treatment free) beekeeping is ideal.
    2. Ideal queens come from TF colonies.
    3. Production yards should estimate their mite levels and treat all or none of the hives because counts for each hive takes too long.
    4. Queens should be blamed, so treated hives should be requeened.
    5. Treatments should be:
      - low in frequency, but enough to meet thresholds
      - thorough with few survivors
      - not breeding tough mites

    my goal: To breed TF queens

    plans:
    1. I don't trust my 3 hives right now. I treated them once in spring. I plan to do a round of treatments before winter, and either 1 treatment or a round in winter.
    2. Get TF queens to breed from next spring.
    3. Have a mating yard.
    4. Estimate average mites/colony for the whole yard, as well as a relative count for every colony.
    5. Higher count hives will get shunned. Shunned hives will get more treatments, and will not be grafted from until they are requeened (unshunned).
    6. Hopefully I will have some TF colonies next year and only have to treat shunned hives in winter.
    7. to someday have a TF yard
    Last edited by SeaCucumber; 07-05-2019 at 01:42 PM.
    David Smolinski USDA hardiness zone 6b

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    It might be time to treat, so any other info would help.
    David Smolinski USDA hardiness zone 6b

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Can someone link to the correct respirator to use via amazon?

    What about eye protection, if I have glasses is that good enough?
    I use a "3M Safety 142-5303 Safety Half Facepiece Disposable Respirator Assembly, Organic Vapor/Acid Gas, Large" Search on Amazon for that and you will be just fine. I use standard safety glasses over my regular glasses.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    SeaCucumber,

    Can the first dose kill mites in eggs and larvae? Mites do not bother with eggs and only hook up with the larvae just before it gets capped.

    Drone cells are capped for about 14 days which is the longest period of all bee types. For summer and fall treatments the first treatment will kill most of the mites walking around the hive. The second treatment 5 days later will kill most of the mites that hatched from the cells over the last 5 days. The third treatment, 10 days after the first one, will kill most of the mites that hatched out over the previous 5 days. Finally, the fourth treatment 15 days after the first one, will kill most of the mites that hatched out over the previous 5 days. That covers all the mites that needed to be treated. If you hive is not raising drones, 3 treatment should work just fine for you.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    I saw some deformed wings. I am going to start treatments tonight (day 0). I will treat on days 0, 2, 7, and 12. msl's link puts the dose at 1 to 3 g. All my hives have 3 mediums.

    Not counting this round, I will do 2 treatment rounds between now and next spring. I need to pick a date for the next one. With respect to average daily high temperatures, when should that round of 3 or 4 treatments be? The last one will be 1 treatment around the coldest day of the year.

    idea for commercial treatment:
    Use a fancy power supply. This device turns your vaporizers on and off based on a time interval that you can change. Use a lot of cheap vaporizers. Vaporizers are hooked up like so: power supply, extension cord, light and button switch, vaporizer. You insert a vaporizer and press the button. The red light turns on while the vaporizer is on. You keep loading and running vaporizers. There is no down time. When your last one is in, the first is ready.
    David Smolinski USDA hardiness zone 6b

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCucumber View Post
    Not counting this round, I will do 2 treatment rounds between now and next spring. I need to pick a date for the next one. With respect to average daily high temperatures, when should that round of 3 or 4 treatments be? The last one will be 1 treatment around the coldest day of the year.
    The number of OAV treatments is based on mite load, not a pre-determined idea, unless you are going to calendar treat. I calendar treat because I already know when my mite loads are likely to spike. If that is the case, you probably are missing a treatment round or two. I just started treating last week. Most of the hives had very low initial drops, 3 or 4, but at least one hive dropped over 50. That means everyone get another dose tomorrow. What works where I am is full rounds in August, September, and October. Single treatments on Thanksgiving and Christmas. My state inspection had me at 0 mites in March.

    For me, a single ProVap110 will treat the hives about as fast as I can measure out the OA crystals. Johno's Easy Vape should go just as fast and is less expensive.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #39

    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    The number of OAV treatments is based on mite load, not a pre-determined idea, unless you are going to calendar treat. I calendar treat because I already know when my mite loads are likely to spike. If that is the case, you probably are missing a treatment round or two. I just started treating last week. Most of the hives had very low initial drops, 3 or 4, but at least one hive dropped over 50. That means everyone get another dose tomorrow. What works where I am is full rounds in August, September, and October. Single treatments on Thanksgiving and Christmas. My state inspection had me at 0 mites in March.

    For me, a single ProVap110 will treat the hives about as fast as I can measure out the OA crystals. Johno's Easy Vape should go just as fast and is less expensive.
    I just did my three largest colonies...the rest are newer splits that haven't had brood in them for long... the three largest had a drop of 1, 3, and 15... Would the 15 count give you cause for concern?

    This is my first time trying oav, I lost a queen to formic last year

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid vaporizer

    Hi jeetS, welcome to Beesource. My personal threshold for continuing the early summer round is 20 mites or more in any of the hives. I checked 5 of 22 before I had a high enough drop to warrant the additional applications. Given that roughly 20% of the total mite load is phoretic at any time, a drop of 50 means I had at least 400 mites in that hive. With a drop of 15, I would probably wait another two weeks and do a single application again. If the numbers stay high, do a full round, and treat the splits too.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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