Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Gopherknoll, with this frame it looks there is no Wax Making going on.



    It looks like there are only bees working on Nectar.

    So would you agree that all signs of Wax Making had stopped in the hives that have Swarm Cells?

    If there is plenty of open comb for storage then there is no need to fully draw out comb.

    Notice only the cells with nectar are fully drawn out.

    What happens is the Wax Maker mature and start Foraging, but the younger bees graduating from Nursing are not needing to make Wax, so they don't.

    I believe this is when Swarm Preparation can start. So Wax Making needs to be continually stimulated. If it stops, then it needs to be triggered again with an OSBN partial frame.

    So that is why I have the 5th Step:

    5. Throughout Swarm Season ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames in each Box, placed close to the Broodnest. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the young bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can be full sheets of foundation.)

    So 1 OSBN Frame on one side of the Broodnest and 1 Full Frame of Foundation on the other side may work well.
    (Instead of 2 OSBN Frames at the one time).

    If you had to do OSBN 4 times in Swarm Season, you would only have used 4 OSBN frames, instead of 8.

    This is in order to Trigger Wax Making in the younger bees as they mature to the Wax Making stage.

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    Matt,

    There were 10 frames of brood. This hive that made that frame has brood frame after brood frame where the brood is 4-8" inches wide, and 3" high. The pollen frames on edge of the brood nest even have the ring of pollen inscribing a similar area, 4" high by 10" wide. It is like bees think the Lang frames are only 10" long. Weird.
    The Broodnest is not a Box of frames with Brood, that ring is what the Broodnest actually is.
    Think of it like the shape of a Watermelon, cut into slices.

  4. #83

    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    Gopherknoll, with this frame it looks there is no Wax Making going on.



    It looks like there are only bees working on Nectar.

    So would you agree that all signs of Wax Making had stopped in the hives that have Swarm Cells?

    If there is plenty of open comb for storage then there is no need to fully draw out comb.

    Notice only the cells with nectar are fully drawn out.

    What happens is the Wax Maker mature and start Foraging, but the younger bees graduating from Nursing are not needing to make Wax, so they don't.
    Thank you, Matt. I'm still struggling to think like a bee and read frames properly. Your comments are very helpful. I saw lots of new comb and assumed the work was ongoing. But yes, I think you are right. They had quit pulling and started putting nectar in a lot of the frames. Two weeks is obviously too long at that time of year to leave them alone. I'll be watching the last couple of hives closely to see what they do with the new round of OSBN.

    Thanks again for your efforts in keeping up with our education!

  5. #84
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    So what does bees actively drawing out comb look like?

    This photo which I've shown previously shows bees actively drawing out comb without foundation:



    Notice the dense groups of bees hanging onto each other, mainly around the outside edge of the drawn comb. These are Wax Makers.
    The comb that has been drawn doesn't have as many bees on it.

    Have have look as this web page for photos of what bees drawing out Foundation looks like:

    http://5rfarm.com/newspost/bee-hive-inspection/

    Again notice there are some dense groups of bees, especially around the edges of drawn comb.

    If anyone has good photos of Foundation in the process of being drawn out, please feel free to post them.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    If anyone has good photos of Foundation in the process of being drawn out, please feel free to post them.
    IMG_20190402_110506062.jpg
    IMG_20190402_105559393.jpg

  7. #86
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Thanks Eduardo. Nice, both drawing Foundation and Foundationless in the one photo.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    I tried this a few years ago when I started and it worked pretty good. I decided to try it this year along side of checkerboarding. It is still really early and I just saw my first drones today. The attached pictures were taken about 15 minutes ago. These frames were put in on 03/20/19 with just a half frame of Acorn foundation. I am really impressed at how fast these were drawn. You can really see the larvae in the one photo. Additional new frames were put in today. The frames are from 2 different hives rps20190409_184723.jpgrps20190409_184634.jpg

  9. #88
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Thanks for the contribution Dudeit.

    Did you use a comb guide on the foundationless sections?
    It's nice and straight.

  10. #89
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Yes I did. I used a bit of wax foundation or a popsicle stick as a guide. I prefer the wax foundation only because if I need to make changes to the frame in the future, removing the wax is easy. Removing a glued in popsicle is quite a bit harder and usually damages the frame. .

  11. #90
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by gopherknoll View Post
    We have gone through most of our hives at this point, opening the sides with the cut-out frames. All have built comb to fill the holes, although not all are pulling white wax yet. Most, however, are pulling at least some white wax in the medium honey supers. Just to remind you, we are pretty new (4th spring) and have very little pulled comb to use for checkerboarding, etc., so getting the bees involved in pulling comb has been a primary goal. This system has been awesome toward accomplishing that.

    We did try using a medium foundation frame in a deep box as a second manipulation to open sides in one box. It didn't work at all. The bees ignored it completely. No pulling of any comb at all on it. Not even burr comb to fill in the bottom.

    Question: Several hives had 5 or 6 queen cups along the bottom edge of the upper brood box (no larvae - not peanuts, just small cups). None of these hives showed any sign of congested brood nest or honey dome. They were not backfilling the brood nest. So.... does the existence of these cups indicate swarm preparation? We removed the cups, but if they are planning to swarm, I'm sure that wouldn't slow them down.
    I often see cups and do not worry at times there are cups on 1/2 the frames in the second brood box. They make cups "just in case" You see them because you are in there looking around. now if they have an egg or larvae then that is a different story.

  12. #91
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    In my 7 years of beekeeping, I have kept langstroth hives every year and top bar hives (TBH) starting in my 2nd year. In all those years, I have never had a TBH swarm. When I was out inspecting the top bar hives today I had one of those "DUH" moments. It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection. I made the connection today because I worked one of my Langstroth OSBN test hives just before working on the TBH and the similarity really took me by surprise. All of my OSBN test hives are booming hives and so far, there is no sign of swarming impulses.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Nice when a light bulb goes off, helps fill in some blank spots, Kinda like playing Jeopardy.

  14. #93
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    In my 7 years of beekeeping, I have kept langstroth hives every year and top bar hives (TBH) starting in my 2nd year. In all those years, I have never had a TBH swarm. When I was out inspecting the top bar hives today I had one of those "DUH" moments. It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection. I made the connection today because I worked one of my Langstroth OSBN test hives just before working on the TBH and the similarity really took me by surprise. All of my OSBN test hives are booming hives and so far, there is no sign of swarming impulses.
    Nice insight, dudelt.

    The one hive that I OSBNed, (along with Walt Wright checkerboarding) built some populated queen cells (supercedure?), but so far no swarm.

    I guess I'm a bit slow on the buzzer.

  15. #94
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection.
    You got it Dude! (Pun intended )

    I actually developed the OSBN method through what I observed in my Long Hive. I put 2 Nucs into the Long Hive divided by a vertical Queen Excluder.

    One side had a Carniolan Queen and the other side an Italian Queen.

    The Carniolan's mainly had capped honey along the top inch or two of the Frame, where the Italian's had a full Frame of capped honey on each side of their Broodnest.

    The Carniolan's because they didn't have much capped honey on the outer frames, after a while took off making comb like crazy. But the Italian's even though they had a bigger Broodnest didn't start wax making until they had used up the capped honey on the sides of their Broodnest. When their Broodnest expanded into the undrawn frames.

    I have also experimented with partial frames inspired by Lauri Miller and so the technique has developed from there. Thanks Lauri!
    Last edited by MattDavey; 04-23-2019 at 08:41 AM.

  16. #95
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Clong, how many queen cells and where are they placed on the frames?
    Do you have any photos?

    Also, how is their comb building going compared to your other hives?

  17. #96
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    Clong, how many queen cells and where are they placed on the frames?
    Do you have any photos?

    Also, how is their comb building going compared to your other hives?
    Matt,

    No photos. Again, I was under time pressure. When I get home from work, I can't take the time I would like. This is what I wrote in my thread for 4/17/19:

    "Piper has some queen cells with larvae in them. I found two, but didn’t do a comprehensive search. Both were in box #4. One was in the middle of a frame, the second one on the bottom of another. I had done a brief inspection on 4/13 and found a drawn frame of white-wax drone comb with some eggs. Along the bottom, there were 5-6 empty queen cups. I couldn’t find it on this inspection, but I wasn’t able to be thorough. The place where a recalled seeing it had a full frame of white wax with eggs and larvae, and no queen cells. During this [most recent] inspection, we found the queen and she seemed slimmer to both my daughter and me. This hive was Walt Wright-Checkerboarded, and OSBNed. [3 frames in total] The queen cells may be supercedure, but I am planning for the worst – that it will swarm soon. I have a trap up. I hope the Lord sends a swarm in that direction."

    Every frame that has been presented on the sides of the brood nest (Piper) has been drawn out. I have two supers on top with 10 frames of empty comb, and 10 empty frames. They haven't drawn any comb in the supers yet.

    I find all of the hives, including the weakest one are drawing white comb when I put empty frames on the edge of the broodnest without fail. I'm not sure if I am answering your question, though.

  18. #97
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Ok, thanks.

    Sounds like supercedure, but need to check on those queen cups along the bottom of the frame. If they have finished drawing out the frames in the Brood Box it can quickly turn into swarm mode.

    Keep adding a couple of undrawn frames beside the Broodnest every week (with Mediums) and moving the outermost drawn frames up into the middle of the super above the Broodnest.

    This keeps triggering wax making in the large numbers of young bees coming into the wax making age (which are also the best age for leaving with a swarm).

    The thing is not to think about the undrawn frames in the supers, instead think of the 'holes' you are making beside the Broodnest or in the Brood Box, in order to get enough frames of foundation drawn.

    You really need to have at least a few drawn frames (that the bees are actively working on) in a super before you can be sure the bees will start using the super.
    Last edited by MattDavey; 04-23-2019 at 09:28 AM.

  19. #98
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Matt,

    Thanks for the advice. I didn't figure out the comb-in-a-super thing, until last Saturday.

    This Wednesday, I'll take a closer look for more queen cells, and see if I can find any swarm cells or not. Although, at this point, if they are swarming, what could I do to stop it now, apart from an artificial swarm?

  20. #99
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    Default

    Yes, once they have gone into swarm mode there is not much that changes their mind. I've heard a frame or two of Open Brood can work, but splitting or a Snelgrove board is often used.

    I've thought about stapling a rim around a queen excluder, so that it has a entrance above the excluder. Then do a split and put it above the hive. Put a board under the excluder until the new queen is laying. Later on merge them again.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Hi Matt. A quick update on my implementation of the method: Three hives, all double deeps, I reversed coming out of winter, good brood patterns in all. Now they started to build up into the top boxes again.

    One hive is really full and is a swarmer from last year, so I added OSBN frames to the lower deep of that one early, they have since filled out one frame and almost the other.

    Now all hives have significantly built bood into the upper deeps now, so Ive added OSBN frames to the uppers of the other hives and added a second set of OSBN frames to the upper of the booming hive. I want to keep my OSBN management in the upper deep so I dont have to completely tear down the hive to check the frames.

    We are beginning early flows here, so Ive honey supered as well. Things are going to plan, so far...

    Thanks for you support on this!

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