Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Ok, well hopefully you have delayed them long enough with OSBN until the Main Flow starts.

    Maybe something did happen to the queen in that hive with the emergency cells.

    I've also noticed a few times in hives that have swarmed that there were older Queen Cells which looked like supercedure cells, then several younger swarm cells along the bottom. As if it was initially queen replacement and then it's like: "Since we are making Queens, we may as well take this opportunity to Swarm as well".

    So maybe low queen pheromone concentration (due to increasing population) can trigger an initial supercedure response and then it turns into swarm preparation because of ideal seasonal conditions.

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Thanks for all your comments and great instructions.
    I will let you know how it goes, we check those hives again, mid week. Right now it is raining. Hoping all looks better ie. they are staying home.
    Zone 6b: 27 hives in Maryland, Carniolan, Italian mix mutts: Still learning - started bees spring of 2014.

  4. #123
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Update:

    We went through the want to swarm hives, no swarm cells in all three. But two have now decided to supersede the queen. Three nice on the face cells in one hive two in the other hive.

    All three full of bees making honey. Better than some of the other hives that have been behaving.
    Zone 6b: 27 hives in Maryland, Carniolan, Italian mix mutts: Still learning - started bees spring of 2014.

  5. #124
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by missybee View Post
    Update:

    We went through the want to swarm hives, no swarm cells in all three. But two have now decided to supersede the queen. Three nice on the face cells in one hive two in the other hive.

    All three full of bees making honey. Better than some of the other hives that have been behaving.
    Hi Missy
    You Know, if you like the genetics of the hives superceeding,, and you happen to have cells on 2 different frames you could still pull a split.
    OR, I read a guy one time pulled the supecedure cells and re queened or made a NUCs Like 4 times before finally letting them finish. Could be a gift that keeps on giving. Any way if the queen dies and you pulled 3 queens off, combine 1 back. to increase or not to increase is the question is. Could take the frame with the 2 cells put it in a box and set it in the place of a fairly strong hive (flyback split) and move the strong hive and walk away. i'd rather have options then be boxed into a corner. Have fun. If they do not like her and are replacing, logically, after you pull the cells they still will not like her and replace her.
    GG

  6. #125
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Thanks for reporting back Missy. That's good news. No swarms, well done.

    Are the old Queens still laying? If they have disposed of the Queen, you will probably find that those hives will definitely make more honey, as they will have little or no Brood to feed for the next few weeks.

    As Gray Goose said, doing a small spilt (2-3 frames) with spare Queen Cells may be worth doing, in case the new Queen doesn't make it back during mating flights. Then you have a spare. Don't want it to get to the stage of Laying Workers.

  7. #126
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    We have managed to get two of the swarm cells to make nice new queens, mated, laying great brood patterns now.

    We have removed a few of the supersede cells put them into nuc boxes see if we can make another queen.

    The old queens are there and laying but not a great pattern and it appears the bees are back filling the brood nest now with nectar.
    The one huge hive, in the process of supersede we are thinking of pinching the queen removing the supersede cells and merge with our new queen. It is a beautiful hive we don't want it to slowly die off.

    Beekeeps I know here that raise queens are saying they are having problems, with getting them mated and back. Our weather has been up and down, we went back to March temperatures, then in two days back up to darn hot. Lots of rain again , not as bad as last year.
    Last edited by missybee; 05-18-2019 at 05:51 AM.
    Zone 6b: 27 hives in Maryland, Carniolan, Italian mix mutts: Still learning - started bees spring of 2014.

  8. #127
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Ok, if you have 2 new Queens with good laying patterns, you may as well use them.
    With the larger population of bees they will pick up in their laying.

    Thanks again.

  9. #128
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Another thought about when adding the first Box with OSBN:


    • If concerned that adding a New Box will be too much space for the bees to heat when temperatures are low. The Inner Cover/Crown Board can be placed in-between the Brood Box and the New Box. This helps to maintain the Temperature in the Brood Box, but the bees still have access to the frames in the New Box through the hole in the Inner Cover/Crown Board. It can be moved up to the top once temperatures are warmer.

  10. #129
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Matt great thread. When is it too late to use this method? One of my hives I found a queen cup the other day with royal jelly. The queen is still in there and I tore it down. When there is a queen cell with the royal jelly in it have they already made up their mind to swarm? A queen cell that far along is probably five days old i think. about three days ago I put a box above them with empty frames of undrawn comb and moved up a couple brood frames in the middle of the new box. We are probably a week away from swarm season. Thank you
    Last edited by Sickdog5; 05-18-2019 at 06:36 PM.

  11. #130
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Hi Sickdog5,

    You can keep doing OSBN right up to the end of the Main Flow. The Summer Soltice gives a good guide as to when Wax Making drops off. (Once the hive has enough Drone comb they make Worker comb in the Brood Box.)

    It's part of the last step, which is maintaining 2 undrawn frames in each Box, throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow.

    With the one Queen Cell, it very likely to be supercedure. If you have 5 or more Queen Cells, it is then that you would want to take action to prevent a Swarm.

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    Hi Sickdog5,

    You can keep doing OSBN right up to the end of the Main Flow. The Summer Soltice gives a good guide as to when Wax Making drops off. (Once the hive has enough Drone comb they make Worker comb in the Brood Box.)

    It's part of the last step, which is maintaining 2 undrawn frames in each Box, throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow.

    With the one Queen Cell, it very likely to be supercedure. If you have 5 or more Queen Cells, it is then that you would want to take action to prevent a Swarm.
    Matt thank you for the timely response. The supersedure make sense in one of my hives because the queen is not laying thinking she is kind of a dud. She is from a swarm I caught last year so I have no idea how old she is. And the other day after I made a split with her 2 days later I found her on the outside of the hive barely moving with other dead bees around her. After picking her up she began to crawl around so I Dropped her back in and they didn’t kill her. Checked the next day she was in there but I did notice a queen cell with royal jelly in it.

    My other big hive there is a young queen in there laying everywhere. Added a 10 frame deep above brood nest with all undrawn frames except for 2 and put the a honey super back on top. There are lots of queen cups but no eggs in them. Did find one cell with royal jelly in it. This one I destroyed. Do you think this is also a supercedure ? Why would they supercede if She is laying magnificently?
    Last edited by Sickdog5; 05-19-2019 at 05:17 AM.

  13. #132
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Supercedure is caused by a reduction in either Queen mandibular pheromone or Open Brood pheromone. So if there is plenty of Open Brood then it may be that there is a high population of bees and the Queen is not making enough Queen pheromone to satisfy all the Workers.

    At the stage you describe it's hard to tell if it's Supercedure or not, you may have caught them in the early stages. When there are lots of Queen Cups they may be considering swarming.
    Would be worth checking them again within 3-4 days. I would have done OSBN on that hive, but at least you have a couple of drawn frames in the new Box, this may just be enough.

    Are the Queen Cups mainly along the bottom of the frame?

  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    Supercedure is caused by a reduction in either Queen mandibular pheromone or Open Brood pheromone. So if there is plenty of Open Brood then it may be that there is a high population of bees and the Queen is not making enough Queen pheromone to satisfy all the Workers.

    At the stage you describe it's hard to tell if it's Supercedure or not, you may have caught them in the early stages. When there are lots of Queen Cups they may be considering swarming.
    Would be worth checking them again within 3-4 days. I would have done OSBN on that hive, but at least you have a couple of drawn frames in the new Box, this may just be enough.

    Are the Queen Cups mainly along the bottom of the frame?
    The hive I split the one were I found the queen outside does not have a lot of open brood. The cell with the royal jelly in it was up towards the top of the frame along the side. There were no cups along bottoms of any of the frames in this hive.

    The big hive with the empty 10 frame deep I put on all the cups are under the honey super frames because she was laying up there. None of those have eggs. The queen cell with the royal jelly was in the bottom box along the side halph way up a frame. I will go in on Tuesday and open up the side of the brood chamber. And then inspect and see what’s going on.

  15. #134
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Ok, still sounds like supercedure in both. But yes, keep eye on the 2nd hive, because of those cups along the bottom of super frames.

  16. #135
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Hang on!

    The Super has brood and eggs in it as well as the bottom Brood Box?
    By adding the New Box inbetween you have effectively done a Split. The distance between the now 2 Broodnests could be too far apart for the Queen pheromone to be strong enough in both.

    The Broodnest without the Queen is now likely to build emergency Queen cells.

    You will definitely need to check for queen cells in a few days.

  17. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    Hang on!

    The Super has brood and eggs in it as well as the bottom Brood Box?
    By adding the New Box inbetween you have effectively done a Split. The distance between the now 2 Broodnests could be too far apart for the Queen pheromone to be strong enough in both.

    The Broodnest without the Queen is now likely to build emergency Queen cells.

    You will definitely need to check for queen cells in a few days.
    . The super had some cups before I did this. Nothing charged just empty. I did this in the hopes of getting some frames drawn out because I don’t have a lot. Guess I should’ve waited till after swarm season. What are your recommendations? Should this alleviate their urge to swarm? Like I said I’ll go in on Tuesday and see what’s going on. Thanks for all your help
    Last edited by Sickdog5; 05-19-2019 at 11:07 AM.

  18. #137
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    I was asking if there was any Brood and eggs in the Super? (Not taking about the queen cups).

    It's too late if there was anyway. So I would just wait until you check on Tuesday.

    If the bees haven't started drawing out the foundation in the new box then I would still go in and do OSBN. Putting in one partial frame of foundation on one side and the other side a full sheet of foundation. Just use the frames from the new box.

  19. #138
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Quote Originally Posted by MattDavey View Post
    I was asking if there was any Brood and eggs in the Super? (Not taking about the queen cups).

    It's too late if there was anyway.

    .
    Too late for what?

  20. #139
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    To stop Emergency Queen Cells (caused by being Queenless for over 8-24 hours).

    Splitting a Broodnest by placing an empty box in-between may be enough distance for there to be an Emergency Reponse. Because there will likely be a significant decrease in Queen Phermone in the Split Broodnest which doesn't have the Queen.

    So if this is the case, you may now have a number of Queen Cells to deal with in that Broodnest. All you can do now is go through the frames carefully. If you don't want to use any of the Queen Cells, you may need to shake bees off all the Brood frames to make sure you don't miss any cells.

  21. #140
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    Default Re: Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method

    Ohh ok got you. Cut some plastic frames the other day that i will be installing on the side of the brood nest.. I will post updates. Thanks for all your help greatly appreciated.

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