Cell size survey. - Page 6
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  1. #101

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote:
    Build a house, ten cubits high, with all the sides of equal dimensions, with one door, and four windows, one on each side; put an ox into it, thirty months old, very fat and fleshy; let a number of young men kill him by beating him violently with clubs, so as to mangle both flesh and bones, but taking care not to shed any blood; let all the orifices, mouth, eyes, nose etc. be stopped up with clean and fine linen, impregnated with pitch; let a quantity of thyme be strewed under the reclining animal, and then let windows and doors be closed and covered with a thick coating of clay, to prevent the access of air or wind. After three weeks have passed, let the house be opened, and let light and fresh air get access to it, except from the side from which the wind blows strongest. Eleven days afterwards, you will find the house full of bees, hanging together in clusters, and nothing left of the ox but horns, bones and hair.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugonia

    Quote:
    The story of Aristaeus was an archetype of this ritual, serving to instruct bee keepers on how to recover from the loss of their bees.


    And that was before the time of internet, youtube and forums.

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  3. #102

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Just in case some newbee pops in here and missed it: (and to prevent more bee damage due to cell size obsessions...)

    Conclusions
    Taking averages from the above table, we obtain a mean worker cell size of 5.27 mm which is almost identical to the pre-1900 average of 5.25 mm (see above). Even if Murrell's range of 4.6 to 5.6 mm is included, the mean for post-1900 comb cell size is 5.22 mm.

    We can therefore conclude that worker cell size in naturally constructed comb has not changed appreciably (<0.5%) throughout recorded beekeeping history, not even since the introduction of foundation in the late 19th century.
    from: http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeeke..._size_heaf.pdf

    There also has been done a thorough survey of cell sizes done. See:
    http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeeke...asurements.htm

  4. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,495

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Just in case some newbee pops in here and missed it: (and to prevent more bee damage due to cell size obsessions...)
    From #19.

    Sure.
    Yes, over time I was becoming annoyed by the "4.9mm or die" religion.
    So the 4.9mm wing of the TF folk kept ignoring the inconvenient truth of the naturally large Russian bees - this was getting old.
    Partially, why this non-scientific survey.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,495

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    ......
    The story of Aristaeus was an archetype of this ritual, serving to instruct bee keepers on how to recover from the loss of their bees.

    And that was before the time of internet, youtube and forums.
    Unsure how this applies to the "Cell size survey".
    But fine.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #105
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,777

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    removed
    Last edited by Cloverdale; 01-06-2020 at 03:44 PM.
    Proverbs 16:24

  7. #106
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    813

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You know - I read about this exact "issue" many times over - bees totally screwing the SC foundation for no clear reason - no one having a good answer.
    The seasonality of the brood cell usage and sizing is one thing no one never has brought up (I have not seen it discusses/studied at least).
    If true, is the size seasonality attribute of northern bees?
    Southern bees?
    Both?

    Or maybe it has to do with vertical cavity bees?
    Or horizontal cavity bees?
    I suppose, differentiation of the vertical cavity bees vs. horizontal cavity bees is another subject I have never seen discussed/studied either.
    Yet such thing exists.
    Back to my readings - the Caucasian bees are considered good bees for keeping in long horizontal hives specifically (due to their natural nesting tendencies).
    Again - this only makes sense at the locations where the Caucasians are reasonably pure (the regions adjacent to the Caucasus proper, including Turkey btw).
    Once random mixing is taking place, what we have here - the outcomes are unpredictable.
    Old thread I know but also what about the Patralines, could be some of the drones were "small size" and some were " Bigger" We may get down a rat hole then abolf if the Queen "selects" which of the sperm to use at what time. Also could be some flowers have best use of a smaller or larger bee so the various sizes are to optimize the flowers which they can use. With casts and seasonality, there may be several interacting reasons for the cell variation in the long vertical comb. Stands to reason "Natural" would allow this expression and "foundation" would suppress it. Also so what iF when we reverse the boxes or mix combs the bees find it backwards or not useful and they swarm out easier. Adds more complexity if these variations are necessary to bee health. I may need to consider some deep frames for some hives and let them build natural then do some math on which flavor does better.

  8. #107
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,067

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    What I observed on the bees irregular construction on Mann Lake PF100 series small cell frames, appears to be a slight slant of the cell that increases as each one struggles to base on the small pattern but expands as the cell is built up. Each cell leans a bit further till after about 3 inches they give up and throw in a row of irregular wax and then take off again almost in synch but losing it again after a few inches . Each one of the adjustment rows reminds me of a stump fence. They show up on all three axes of the cells. The previous forum owner, Barry, made a similar observation. He gave it the adjustment rows name and suggested about 20% wasted space on a frame.

    I did have a few frames quite well drawn but did not note where they were located in regard to brood center or not. I only ever bought one box of them.
    Frank

  9. #108
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    111

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    The cells are inconsistent across the comb with the center of the comb smaller than the edges of the comb. I get measurements between 5.1 and 5.2 mm. My bees have a strong influence from AMM but are mostly derived from Italian genetics otherwise.

    I put in the time to study cell size a few years ago. Short version is that Africanized bees are happy on 4.9 but my bees are not.
    A man from Guatemala come to visit us looking for bees and I showed him our bees. He said that the bees he raised in Guatemala were larger than my bees. I assume his bees were African, but on foundation. I will ask him if he used foundation when I talk to him again. I definitely notice that I get larger bees when I use foundation compared to letting the bees make their comb naturally.

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