Cell size survey. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by wissler View Post
    Mostly 4.9 or smaller at lat 33.4 in N. Tx.
    Thanks for sharing.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #22
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i use some foundationless frames to flank a frame of drawn comb in my swarm traps. over the years i have accumulated several frames of naturally drawn comb. the cells in the middle of the brood frames tend to get drawn at about 5.1 mm as compared to the 5.4 mm on the rite cell plastic foundation that i use.
    .
    5.1 mm
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by wissler View Post
    Mostly 4.9 or smaller at lat 33.4 in N. Tx. This example is one of the smallest I've measured from an overwintered hive.
    Attachment 46359
    Africanised?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #24
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    2,998

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Oldtimer, the only bees in Texas that draw 4.6 are Africanized.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Be interesting to see how environment plays a part, if there were non africanised (recently requeened) bees in the same area drawing natural comb, what size they would draw.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  7. #26
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    Mar 2012
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    Catskills, New York, USA
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    deleted post
    Last edited by Cloverdale; 03-02-2019 at 11:25 AM.
    Proverbs 16:24

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    This was drawn on plastic foundation but would like any feedback on what happened on these frames: [/ATTACH]Attachment 46371Attachment 46373 and pollen frame Attachment 46375 which is very gooey.
    How does this apply to the "Cell size survey"?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
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    Mar 2012
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    Catskills, New York, USA
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    You’re right it doesn’t. I thought the cells were wonky in this I should have started another thread. I’ll delete. Deb
    Proverbs 16:24

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    You’re right it doesn’t. I thought the cells were wonky in this I should have started another thread. I’ll delete. Deb
    Thanks.
    Trying to be a micro-mod and keeping my topic on topic, somewhat (so it is useful).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Jan 2012
    Location
    Young County, Tx
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    14

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Oldtimer, the only bees in Texas that draw 4.6 are Africanized.
    That's quite a generalization there. Do you keep bees in Texas? If they're africanized, they sure don't fit the profile for temperament.

  12. #31
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    Jan 2012
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    Young County, Tx
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    14

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Africanised?
    Some commercial stock, from RWeaver, but mostly captured swarms regressed down on 4.9. 16 colonies TF since 2009.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Here a video of a localized AMM stock enthusiast (I used his vids before).
    No need to watch the video per se (it is an "informatial" about 5.6mm foundation his is making how great it is for the bees).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8mTavqLSok

    So his claim is - their local AMMs are so large, he decided to make custom foundation 5.6mm for them so make them even larger (i.e. "better" in his view).
    Here is one of his comments (I translate):

    Apparently the bees have absolutely no difference what cell size to build - the bees built on 5.6 mm as well as on 5.4 mm, but ~1/3 of the queens, in the first year, avoided 5.6 mm. The rest of the queens (~2/3) used 5.6 mm. In one family, the bees even replaced the young queen which did not want to lay into 5.6 mm. In the second year only 2-4 queens did not lay into 5.6mm. And in the third and fourth year they all laid into 5.6 mm as if it were their own. ..... This is a kind of experiment, and my bees (100%) participate in it already for four seasons. Drone brood on such a foundation (5.6mm) often laid also, but I'm only glad. Previously, I cut the corners of the foundation for the drones brood, but now there will be no need.
    I am not stating if this is good or bad.
    For sure, this is not natural.
    And yet his bees "regressed" upwards - that's ironic is it not?

    Sounds to me as if the bees are opportunistic enough so to adjust up or down, within some limits so to take advantage of already existing resources (foundation in this case).
    What does it mean?
    This means that bees are not wanting to be "small" by default.
    Bees simply are taking advantage of the resources (if they are "close enough" to be usable) and use them so to conserve time, labor and materials.

    In any case, people have been snatching his extra-LC, 5.6 mm foundation like hot cakes (looks like so by reading the comments).
    This, basically, shows how people just keep looking for a magic pills in general for whatever the perceived problems they may have (maybe only in their own heads).
    So, 5.6 mm is a good deal for this fellow business wise - many people still have the idea of "bigger bee is a better bee".

    PS:
    I did comment under his video he would be better off by running 1-2 unites foundation-less so to determine what his AMM bees actually and naturally want to build;
    unsure he understand the idea of natural comb, unfortunately;
    all they talk about is foundation and foundation, and then more foundation.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #33
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    Aug 2014
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    England, UK
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I did comment under his video he would be better off by running 1-2 unites foundation-less so to determine what his AMM bees actually and naturally want to build;
    unsure he understand the idea of natural comb, unfortunately;
    all they talk about is foundation and foundation, and then more foundation.
    Yeah - I'm a bit lost here ...

    I don't understand how anyone can talk in terms of 'adjustment' (either up or down) unless they are giving the bees a totally free reign to build the size which THEY want to build. And even then it may take a couple of generations (along with new combs being drawn each time) to establish whatever size is 'natural' for them. Very easy to get skewed data when foundation is involved ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    It would also be interesting to see if his bees actually are bigger, or if they just rattle around in the cell more.

    But in anycase 5.6 is not overly excessive. Over here the foundation i use is 5.4, and when i went natural comb the bees were building down to 5.2, but also up to 5.5 in the worker brood area, so 5.6 is not that much of a stretch.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It would also be interesting to see if his bees actually are bigger, or if they just rattle around in the cell more.

    But in anycase 5.6 is not overly excessive. Over here the foundation i use is 5.4, and when i went natural comb the bees were building down to 5.2, but also up to 5.5 in the worker brood area, so 5.6 is not that much of a stretch.
    Agreed - it is not IF your average size is about 5.4 mm (which is the case for some AMM populations as it has been shown).

    In summer, I may even have few bees just about that size that were raised in the corners of natural comb where worker cells gradually become drone cells.
    But the cohort of the 5.6mm bees will be very small if it exist at all.

    In the world of natural comb - you have subsets of various cell sizes (and subsets of bees of various sizes).
    If the average cell size is about 5.2 mm, there will be few 5.4mm bees for sure and there will be few bees at 5.0 mm size for sure.
    Outside of this sizing range, likely-hoods will drop off.

    During the intense buildup, when the queen often lays wall-to-wall, more and more over-sized and under-sized cells become used (speaking only the natural cell, naturally).
    So in summer, during the most intense work loads, you get some very large bees and some very small bees too.
    By contrast, during the off-summer months only average cells get used (queen does not lay on the fringes of the combs during sub-optimal conditions).
    Just looking at my large brood frames you can see clearly how these trends work in terms of seasonal changes.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Chicago, ILL. USA
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    314

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Back when I used to measure cell size, my small cell bees ( acquired from Wolf Creek ) would built 5.1-5.2 cells when placed on foundationless frames. I tried shaking them down again on foundationless frames and the result was pretty much the same. I gave up small cell, and focused on other aspects of mite management that seemed to produce results.

  18. #37
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    Jun 2018
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    Boaz, KY, USA
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    1,157

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcin View Post
    ...my small cell bees ( acquired from Wolf Creek ) would built 5.1-5.2 cells when placed on foundationless frames.
    Marcin:

    If I recall correctly you at least partially utilize a narrow-frame (1-1/4) set-up in your apiary?

    If my memory is at least partially accurate and you don't mind sharing, have you observed any difference in cell size when comparing 1-3/8" versus 1-1/4" frame spacing?

  19. #38
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    Mar 2012
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    Bay City, MI 48706
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    151

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    When i would measure around the outside of the frame I would get 5.1
    But when I went to the center of the brood nest 4.35.
    First time I am posting a picture hope it worked.

    20190225_100609 (2).jpg
    Paul 15 years 15 hives TF

  20. #39
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    Jun 2011
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    Chicago, ILL. USA
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    314

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Marcin:

    If I recall correctly you at least partially utilize a narrow-frame (1-1/4) set-up in your apiary?

    If my memory is at least partially accurate and you don't mind sharing, have you observed any difference in cell size when comparing 1-3/8" versus 1-1/4" frame spacing?
    Yes, I'd say ~2/3 of my frames are 1-1/4". But that didn't seem to influence the overall cell size the bees would build.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graperunner View Post
    ... center of the brood nest 4.35.
    Wow; now this is really tiny.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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