Cell size survey. - Page 5
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 81 to 99 of 99
  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,042

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Would any of this have anything to do with the frames sizes?
    No, but it has a lot to do with the distance from the center of the brood nest. Bees build the smallest cells in the center of the brood nest and gradually increase in size as they go out. They will not exceed a certain size, but will vary with the brood area often composed of 4.9 or 5.0 cells while 3 or 4 frames from the center they draw 5.1 or 5.2. Also, cells will often be stretched a tad vertically and compressed horizontally. They may measure 4.9 one way and 5.1 the other. Check this by letting a colony build comb. It is very easy to demonstrate.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,298

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    No, but it has a lot to do with the distance from the center of the brood nest. Bees build the smallest cells in the center of the brood nest and gradually increase in size as they go out. They will not exceed a certain size, but will vary with the brood area often composed of 4.9 or 5.0 cells while 3 or 4 frames from the center they draw 5.1 or 5.2. Also, cells will often be stretched a tad vertically and compressed horizontally. They may measure 4.9 one way and 5.1 the other. Check this by letting a colony build comb. It is very easy to demonstrate.
    Well, this maybe so if you have classic cold way/central entrance - you have the nest aligned to the entrance (about centrally).
    I don't do those.
    My things are off to one side.

    I suppose wherever the main nest is situated that is where they will build the appropriate cell size (if allowed to build so).
    Be it in the middle or on a side.
    Last edited by GregV; 04-12-2019 at 09:03 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #83
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,597

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    No, but it has a lot to do with the distance from the center of the brood nest. Bees build the smallest cells in the center of the brood nest and gradually increase in size as they go out. They will not exceed a certain size, but will vary with the brood area often composed of 4.9 or 5.0 cells while 3 or 4 frames from the center they draw 5.1 or 5.2. Also, cells will often be stretched a tad vertically and compressed horizontally. They may measure 4.9 one way and 5.1 the other. Check this by letting a colony build comb. It is very easy to demonstrate.
    Iím trying to think here Iíve really never thought about cell size; having our boxes for their hive, the bees are constantly expanding from late winter to about August. For those having an unlimited brood-nest and adding drawn frames, especially using drawn honey supers which seem to have uniform cell size, how do they use this for drones? Plus Iím going to add an image here which has me puzzled. AB3ED020-83B0-4645-A2F5-EC516B7A481A.jpgIt posted upside down
    Proverbs 16:24

  5. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,597

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Well, this maybe so if you have classic cold way/central entrance - you have the nest aligned to the entrance (about centrally).
    I don't do those.
    My things are off to one side.

    I suppose wherever the main nest is situated that is where they will build the appropriate cell size (if allowed to build so).
    Be it in the middle or on a side.
    Greg, you mean the combs are set up vertical to the entrance.?
    Proverbs 16:24

  6. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,298

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    Greg, you mean the combs are set up vertical to the entrance.?
    If you recall - in Layen's system the entrances are located at the hive corners.
    And so it is a hybrid between central cold way and central warm way.
    Like so:
    UkranianHiveConfiguration_April_Wisconsin.jpg

    Right now the nest is off-set with respect to the entrance - it is warmer/less ventilation.
    In summer, the nest stars from the very entrances - more ventilation.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,298

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Now that I access to more natural combs again (from the dead-outs) - documenting more cell size cases.
    The combs below, after taking the pics, I cut up and froze for later bee bread harvest.
    Almost felt bad partially destroying this beautiful, classic open frame, free hanging comb sample.

    Strange and not anticipated, but the lowest section in the open frame example is 5.5 mm (rather large for a natural comb).
    So far I have been finding that the lowest sections of the large natural comb have the smallest cells.
    This example got it all backwards - not a clue.

    The other, the ugly comb, was more predictable - go-down-smaller-you-get (I ignore the drone combs and only look at the worker cells).

    20191110_124402.jpg
    20191110_125308.jpg
    20191110_125516.jpg
    20191110_125917.jpg.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #87
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,147

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Bees build the smallest cells in the center of the brood nest and gradually increase in size as they go out. They will not exceed a certain size, but will vary with the brood area often composed of 4.9 or 5.0 cells while 3 or 4 frames from the center they draw 5.1 or 5.2.
    This would be at variance with D Lusby, who is adamant the combs must be 4.9 throughout.
    To her, a hive with any larger than 4.9 comb in the brood nest, other than her 10% drone comb, is not a small cell hive. She would view most of the natural comb beekeepers around now, as not small cell beekeepers.

    I can remember a few years back when because of the information that was being dispensed at the time, a lot of people would say they were small cell beekeepers, because they were natural cell beekeepers, and had been taught that meant their comb would be small cell.
    Then a thread was started here on Beesource asking people to submit measurements of their comb, and a lot of these people upon actually measuring, were very surprised to discover they were not small cell at all.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  9. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,298

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    This would be at variance with D Lusby, who is adamant the combs must be 4.9 throughout.
    To her, a hive with any larger than 4.9 comb in the brood nest, other than her 10% drone comb, is not a small cell hive. She would view most of the natural comb beekeepers around now, as not small cell beekeepers.

    I can remember a few years back when because of the information that was being dispensed at the time, a lot of people would say they were small cell beekeepers, because they were natural cell beekeepers, and had been taught that meant their comb would be small cell.
    Then a thread was started here on Beesource asking people to submit measurements of their comb, and a lot of these people upon actually measuring, were very surprised to discover they were not small cell at all.
    I was very annoyed by the SC religion knowing very well how in Russian Far East they have the non-SC (by the Lusby standards), but yet resistant enough bees.
    As a result, I started this particular thread.

    As far as the SC beekeeping, I don't care.
    My bees can do what they see fit.

    Very recently, this fall I just lost an over-wintered colony that has been rotated through the comb enough times to be 4.9mm IF they really cared to be that small.
    They died by the mites (I posted documentation).
    They were sufficiently and obviously smaller bees vs. the conventional - well, every comb is to be measure and documented - will post when get around to it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #89

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    but will vary with the brood area often composed of 4.9 or 5.0 cells while 3 or 4 frames from the center they draw 5.1 or 5.2.
    Some years ago, at the height of the small cell frenzy, the UGA beelab collected brood comb samples from about 150 removals in the state. They measured across 10 cells in the center of each. I don’t remember the exact percentages but I do remember that 4.9 was measured in less than 5%. In truth I believe it was around 1%. The average was 5.1.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,147

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Here in New Zealand the only 4.9 sized cell you will find in a wild removal will be an odd one where there is a fault or join in a comb. Other than that they don't exist naturally.

    Yet in Lusby's colored map of the world indicating cell size, she has NZ down as in the 4.9 cell size zone. Or, 4.8 - 5.0 to be precise. In reality finding anything under 5.1 would be rare.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  12. #91
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    1,654

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yet in Lusby's colored map of the world indicating cell size, she has NZ down as in the 4.9 cell size zone. Or, 4.8 - 5.0 to be precise. In reality finding anything under 5.1 would be rare.
    At Apimondia one of the posters during one of the poster sessions addressed this. Very well detailed, and it showed the math error in Lee Dusby's work where she determined that 4.9 was a 'correct' cell size from historical data. After fixing the math error, the result becomes 5.1....

  13. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,042

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    I tested 4.9 extensively from 2005 to 2016 and reached only one conclusion. My bees were unhappy with 4.9 cells. I could force them to accept the foundation and they would draw it, but over time they would rework sections of the comb into larger sizes including large amounts of drone comb. This highlights exactly what it should. The bees Dee has naturally build 4.9 and the bees I have are happiest with 5.1. It is genetics!

    There are some subtle effects on spring buildup associated with cell size and frame spacing. The combination of narrow frames at 31.5 mm spacing center to center plus 5.1 foundation results in about 27% more cells covered by a given size cluster of bees. This enables bees to built up to a spring peak in 7 to 8 weeks as compared to combs at 35 mm spacing with 5.3 foundation that peak in 10 to 12 weeks. That is a nice boost in my area since some of the early flows produce crops of honey for a strong colony. It requires careful management to avoid swarming.

    All of my colonies are on 5.1 cells in square Dadant hives. Mite counts showed zero differences based on cell size, but huge differences based on genetics.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  14. #93
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,147

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I tested 4.9 extensively from 2005 to 2016 and reached only one conclusion. My bees were unhappy with 4.9 cells. I could force them to accept the foundation and they would draw it, but over time they would rework sections of the comb into larger sizes
    My experience exactly FP. I was told that bees build larger than 4.9 because we have raised them in artificially large foundation, and only when they have been "regressed" for enough generations will they revert to the normal 4.9 cell size.

    So I was able to force bees to build 4.9 cell size and ran hives on that size for 2 years. In that amount of time one would assume the number of generations would be enough to fully regress the bees.

    Then i wanted to try natural comb and moved some of these bees into hives where they could build natural comb. Imagine my surprise when these small bees would not build comb at 4.9 and in fact the very smallest was 5.1 and most was in the 5.1 to 5.3 range. One hive went straight into building full combs at 5.6, which they used for raising workers.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  15. #94
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    South Waikato New Zealand
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    My experience exactly FP. I was told that bees build larger than 4.9 because we have raised them in artificially large foundation, and only when they have been "regressed" for enough generations will they revert to the normal 4.9 cell size.

    So I was able to force bees to build 4.9 cell size and ran hives on that size for 2 years. In that amount of time one would assume the number of generations would be enough to fully regress the bees.

    Then i wanted to try natural comb and moved some of these bees into hives where they could build natural comb. Imagine my surprise when these small bees would not build comb at 4.9 and in fact the very smallest was 5.1 and most was in the 5.1 to 5.3 range. One hive went straight into building full combs at 5.6, which they used for raising workers.
    As I recall, you also said you went ''cold turkey' (didnt treat) and lost them all.

    Mine are still alive and my one is now two....on SC

  16. #95
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,147

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    You still following me around?

    Wondered where you been.

    Thanks for sharing all my TF bees were lost but it's hardly a secret it is all documented here on Beesource Mischief. Great to hear your bees are surviving now you are treating them.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #96

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I was told that bees build larger than 4.9 because we have raised them in artificially large foundation, and only when they have been "regressed" for enough generations will they revert to the normal 4.9 cell size.
    Back in the day the small cell gurus claimed that you had to regress them using an interim size foundation (5.1mm), which I did in one yard. They built out the 5.1 without a hitch. Introducing 4.9 after completing the Ďpartialí regression was still a fiasco.
    I agreeÖ.thereís a genetic reason that Dee Lusbyís bees naturally draw 4.9 and no responsible beekeeper wants those genetics.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  18. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,298

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    An interesting quote from this book:
    https://www.rusuley.ru/images/%D0%A8...8%20(1986).pdf

    Page 52 from the chapter about G. P. Kandratiev (1835-1905).

    ... в течение 20 лет наблюдал за гнездом в неразборном соломенном ульеи пришел к выводу: несмотря на такой большой возрастсотов, пчелы не рождались мельче, как многие утвержда-ли;
    Translation:
    ....for 20 years he observed a bee nest in a non-separable straw hive and concluded: despite the old age of the combs, the bees did not become smaller as many stated.....

    Just another reputable observation.
    So much for the natural regression to the "Lusby" SC and down.

    PS: hard to believe the combs in the nest were 20 years old and unchanged;
    it is more reasonable to assume that bees just destroyed/rebuilt the combs when their natural ergonomic thresholds required the resizing back to normal (whatever the normal was).

    PPS: unfortunately, I did not find any specification on what exact bee did G. P. Kandratiev observed in this 20 year project - likely some random mutts (he experimented with and kept most all European bee races at his apiary with the pure Caucasians being his favorite; the Africans were out of the question, of course).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-02-2019 at 11:46 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #98

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    I have my dad's copy of "The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture", which is the 1947 edition.

    under the entry CELLS, SIZE OF HONEYCOMB, ER Root provides an interesting bit of the history of the development of foundation.

    On page 125 he writes:

    "In 1876, when AI Root, the original author of this work, built his first roll comb foundation mill he had the die faces cut for 5 worker cells to the inch. While the bees built beautiful combs from this foundation, and the queen laid in the cells, yet, if given a chance they appeared to prefer their own natural comb not built from comb foundation. Suspecting the reason, Mr. Root began then measuring up many pieces of natural comb when he discovered that his initial cells, five to the inch, from his first machine were slightly too small. The result of his measurement of natural comb showed slightly over nineteen worker cells to 4 inches linear measure, or 4.83 cells to one inch."

    These are likely German Brown Bees. 4.83 cells per inch = 5.26 mm cell size. 5 cells per inch = 5.08 mm cell size.

    I suppose the measurements were made on typical combs, not the smallest comb cells at the center of the brood nest. Since prior to this time foundation was not in common use, This gives a good idea of natural cell size. Comb foundation was invented in 1857. However it was not until the machinery described above was developed that it became commercially available.

    There is also quite a bit of discussion of the history of comb foundation, and a nice discussion on attempts to breed larger bees by using larger cell sizes which was apparently in vogue in the 30's and 40's. The author is quite skeptical of these attempts, and provides a practical explanation of why larger bees would not have substantial advantages.

    So i'm not planning to regress my bees any time soon.

  20. #99
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,913

    Default Re: Cell size survey.

    >...for 20 years he observed a bee nest in a non-separable straw hive and concluded: despite the old age of the combs, the bees did not become smaller as many stated.....

    >So much for the natural regression to the "Lusby" SC and down.

    Dee quotes Grout who says the same. They will only get smaller to a certain point and then the bees chew out the cocoons and they stop getting smaller. Grout's paper showing this is here on Beesource under the cell size portion of Dee's writings.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •