The 'Gallup' Long Hive. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Hi Trish - I think that's a fair summary. However, after checking 'Gleanings' for the following 3 years I was very surprised to learn that no-one had seized upon the potential of this procedure. I was also curious about Doolittle's own lack of enthusiasm for it:
    I've since learned that Doolittle's article was in fact the final salvo in an argument which had started the previous year, with Doolittle initially expressing a very negative opinion of Long Hives in general (which I'm sad to say demonstrates that even Doolittle was guilty of both ignorance and prejudice - more on that in another post) but even so, in regard to this particular issue all is not quite as rosy as might first appear.

    I think it's fair to assume that the removal of honey causes brood-rearing to be stimulated due to the colony recognising (somehow) that the existing number of bees is insufficient to provide enough stores for winter survival - and so more bees are duly generated. Which is great news for a bee-farmer, and dispells the myth that you can't produce both honey AND bees at the same time. BUT - think about the season ...

    Honey is being removed during the flow (obviously), and the bees' response to this is to then generate more brood to create roughly double the number of bees - but this enlarged number of bees will result towards the end, or even after the flow. So, you've then got double the number of mouths to feed, with most of them sitting around idle, as at that time there will be nothing much in the way of nectar coming into the hive. Bags of bees - but at the wrong time of the season (unless you happen to be a bee-farmer).

    This of course is a recipe for swarming, which Doolittle completely fails to mention in the above source - but - in a much earlier tirade against the 'Long-idea' beehive (which was quickly countered by those with more experience and expertise with them than Doolittle) he cites both excessive swarming and the hive's inability to over-winter as being core features of horizontal hives.

    . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Now that Horizontal Hives (in general) have a suitable home for discussion, I think it might be useful to examine the early experiences of the Long-idea Hive in America, contrasting these with those of the broadly similar hive styles of Eastern Europe.
    I'm currently delving into American Long Hive history as revealed in 'Gleanings' 1873 onwards, and will post relevant articles as they emerge. I'm hoping that Greg will be able to supply the Eastern European perspective.
    LJ
    So Correct me If I am reading this incorrect. The large harvest was due to taking honey more often. So this suggests the bees work toward a "perceived" need and then "may slack off raise less brood etc. By Taking some early they perceive they need to up the effort and raise more brood to get to the perceived stores threshold.. Would this not work for any hive system? I do not think the hive shape would change the way the bees operate. Would taking honey 3 times a year get you to a larger harvest for the year? I ask for several reasons but primary less supers is less work and less storage. Splitting the harvest would make 2 smaller jobs instead of 1 big one. And I can beat the rest of the Beeks to market with fresh honey. Add wet supers back during flow not dearth. this may be something to ponder..
    GG

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  3. #42
    Join Date
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    The large harvest was due to taking honey more often. So this suggests the bees work toward a "perceived" need and then "may slack off raise less brood etc. ...GG
    Just a couple of days ago I found an interesting blog that confirms the same finding.
    Hives with the biggest frames (500mmx500mm) configured horizontally and the least managed - produced the least honey (vs. other setups).
    The observation was that the bees were just way TOO comfortable and were lacking some urgency in honey harvest (but instead were more prolific - and consumed more so to make more bees).
    I will post something later.

    However, also consider
    1)how much overall time/effort was spent per the unit of honey by the keeper (every time you open a hive - that is time spent),
    2)does the keeper intend to sell or not (one can only consume so much - no need to produce way too much),
    3)is the keeper available at all to do any work around the bees over the summer (some live far away; others have much life outside of the bees)...
    Some of these points could be the actual defining factors.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  4. #43
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    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Just a couple of days ago I found an interesting blog that confirms the same finding.
    Hives with the biggest frames (500mmx500mm) configured horizontally and the least managed - produced the least honey (vs. other setups).

    However, also consider
    1)how much overall time/effort was spent per the unit of honey by the keeper (every time you open a hive - that is time spent),
    2)does the keeper intend to sell or not (one can only consume so much - no need to produce way too much),
    3)is the keeper available at all to do any work around the bees over the summer (some live far away; others have much life outside of the bees)...
    Some of these points could be the actual defining factors.
    Greg, Thanks for engaging. i'll offer comment by the number of the question.
    1) in late June when I add super 3 and 4 I could easily trap out the full frames from the first 2 supers and if using all the same frames maybe 3 or 4 from the edge of the brood nest. not a huge add for work. The big ones get checked for Q cells anyway
    2) yes I sell to defray the cost of Frames, foundation, gas queens, paint etc. Last year I ended up with about $1000 If I can get to 1500 that works for me. That would be Dato blades and a router
    3) well the answer here is it varies 1 Apiary in in the back yard and the farthest is 4 hours away. So I "could" extract the back yard, take the wets up to the far apiary, pull the first super there, add the wets, bring back the full supers, and extract then put the wets back on the backyard Apiary. Again for 50% more honey I would find a way. I drive up to super and check , coming back with 8 supers of honey in the back of the truck would not be a huge issue.

    Yes I know the danger of moving honey from hive to hive. Whatever. I see big stacks of wets in front of commercials all the time , bees thick, it happens. Also who removes the honey in the tree dead outs. They are all splits of each other any way. so feel free to criticize but I am already aware.

    So for me this is good news, last year the extract was a bit much, took a day off work did it in 3 day weekend, splitting it into 2 different weekends and eventually 3 would also help.
    Also I ran out of supers last year. I made 20 more this winter but a mid year extract would be helpful in my case.

    BTW I use Langs and am moving toward all Mediums.

    GG

  5. #44
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    [...] The large harvest was due to taking honey more often. So this suggests the bees work toward a "perceived" need and then "may slack off raise less brood etc. By Taking some early they perceive they need to up the effort and raise more brood to get to the perceived stores threshold.
    Perception of existing levels of stored honey viz-a-viz brood numbers is certainly one possibility. The other could be that it's a sequela - in the sense of a predictable sequence or automatic consequence of an action.

    If we consider the situation when humans aren't involved, then there are no such entities in the natural honeybee nest as 'brood combs' or 'honey combs' ... there are just 'combs' - with those combs being used for different purposes at different times during the season.

    If we examine the sequence in late Winter, then honey will have been progressively removed during that dormant period. Depending upon local conditions, some small amounts of brood may indeed have been reared during winter within cells which had previously held honey, but for many colonies circumstances are such that brood-rearing only commences once the natural world wakes-up and fresh pollen begins to come into the hive. Assuming that space has become available by honey removal, this brood-rearing will initially take place near the top of the comb where the conditions are warmest. As the season begins to unfold, brood-rearing progressively moves down the comb, and former brood cells - now empty - will begin to be back-filled with nectar.

    This then can be considered as a natural sequence: former honey cells becoming brood cells, and former brood cells in turn becoming honey cells.

    Now if we were to take a snapshot of such a comb, we might indeed conclude that "bees store honey over brood", which is of course absolutely true as a stand-alone observational statement - and underpins the logic of placing supers with their purpose-made honey-combs (to which the queen is invariably denied access) above brood boxes. But it would also be just as true to say that "bees store honey in cells which previously held brood" - and - "bees raise brood in cells which previously held honey", and that the axiom of "honey is always stored over brood" - although true - is the result of making an observation during only one part of the cycle, and concluding that this is an inherent feature of the species, without questioning exactly 'why' this positioning is being made.

    I think Doolittle's observation that every single comb in those 32-frame Long Hives held brood gives an important clue as to the dynamics which occur whenever the queen is allowed free reign to lay wherever she wishes.

    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #45
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    LJ I may try a couple hives this year where I extract a box and then place it under the stack. Now they have 6 inches less honey overhead and 6 more inches of comb under the brood nest. For your, long hive perhaps take a frame or 2 of honey, filled as they move back toward the entrance. Extract it and place empty s behind them. Somewhat walking up the down escalator. If you cannot extract and have combs, one could remove the honey shift the bees and place empty comb behind them. It may be the % of empty cells in the nest that drives brood production. As you say later in the year empty cells are scarcer. If we slowly remove full and add empty cells, we may trigger a longer build up and slower decline. Ergo a higher population for a fraction of the flow. for the long hive you could split late some of the larger population and give 3 or 4 frames of stores, allowing a longer splitting season. Lots of ways to play it, once you understand the drive behind it.
    GG

  7. #46
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Lots of ways to play it, once you understand the drive behind it.
    Yeah - but that's the elusive bit ...

    I guess what I was trying to say before was that it could be a) the bees making a decision based on observation/awareness, or b) them making a 'knee-jerk' reaction, over which they have little say. 32 frames - all with brood in 'em - makes very little sense, when 10-12 would be more than sufficient.

    Easy enough to test (I think ...) - take a freshly extracted honey-comb (worker cell size) and place it into the brood nest of a colony which already has ample amounts of brood. I'd bet money that comb would be jumped-on and laid-up within 24 hrs. Then repeat to check.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #47
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Yeah - but that's the elusive bit ...

    I guess what I was trying to say before was that it could be a) the bees making a decision based on observation/awareness, or b) them making a 'knee-jerk' reaction, over which they have little say. 32 frames - all with brood in 'em - makes very little sense, when 10-12 would be more than sufficient.

    Easy enough to test (I think ...) - take a freshly extracted honey-comb (worker cell size) and place it into the brood nest of a colony which already has ample amounts of brood. I'd bet money that comb would be jumped-on and laid-up within 24 hrs. Then repeat to check.
    LJ
    ex-actually and if you say had 10 long hives and pulled 1 or 2 frames of honey, extracted it and placed it back in the brood nest. You would simultaneously remove stores and provide empty cells in the brood nest. Simple twist, use drone comb for either the best breeding hives for mating readiness or the remove and freeze program for IPM. could even move drone comb from your breeder to a non breeder to have them raise the drones you wish to have. So once this impulse is understood it can be used to reach several different goals. For me out of the box I would use it for OTBN and production increase. then Late split for increase.
    GG

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