The 'Gallup' Long Hive.
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  1. #1
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    Default The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    I had great difficulty in deciding in which sub-forum to post the following - "Hive Design, which type ?" would perhaps have been the most appropriate, if it were not for the fact that particular sub-forum is intended for beginners - and what follows is certainly NOT a beginner's topic.

    The principal focus of what follows is the Gallup Frame of 11.25" square, as used in a horizontal hive and, although not Top Bar, this seems the best place for it, in the absence of a more suitable home.

    Afaik, there never was a 'Gallup Hive' as such - but rather that size frame was used within custom-made hives of all types and configurations.

    One of the criticisms frequently made of Long Hives is that they are incapable of returning a reasonable honey crop. A second criticism one often hears is that the frequent opening of beehives is detrimental to the life of a colony, and that doing so will set them back considerably. In what follows you will read a rebuttal of both of these widely-held beliefs ...

    As the first two paragraphs of what follows may at first appear confusing, perhaps I should explain that Doolittle called his favourite home-apiary hive a 'Six Frame Hive', as that was the number of brood frames he used for over-wintering, but in practice the hive could contain 15 frames. He modified this 15-frame box such that the space for 3 frames at either end became areas where sections were produced, thus leaving 9 brood frames within the central area, reducing this number to 6 or 7 during the season to suit colony size and/or behaviour.

    This is then what Doolittle wrote in the January 1899 edition of 'Gleanings':
    [...] up to the eighties, and for years, I used only six and seven Gallup frames to the hive, and a number of articles can be found in the American Bee Journal headed "Those Six-frame Hives," in which I showed how I succeeded in producing tons upon tons of comb honey by the use of from six to seven frames for brood.
    Up to 1874 I had thought that 9 Gallup frames would entertain the best queen to her fullest capacity, no matter whether the colony was worked for extracted or comb honey ; for up to that time that was the greatest number allowed when working for either.
    In the spring of 1874 I read upon the (Adair) Long Idea hive, and became infatuated with the same. I made two of them, working one for extracted honey and the other for comb, these hives being made to hold 32 Gallup frames when the whole number was in.
    These then were experimental 4ft Long Hives, housing 32 Gallup frames, 11.25" x 11.25". Doolittle ran one for extracted honey, with extraction being conducted every 3rd or 4th day, with the other worked for comb honey on his well-established nine-frame "side and top box" plan.
    Doolittle was to discover that something very odd happened within the extraction hive, in that brood rearing was significantly stimulated by this process of frequent extraction, such that he estimated that double the amount of brood resulted as a direct result of this activity. The subsequent results for honey-gathering were truly 'astronomical' (by my standards):

    [...] the hive worked for extracted honey on the long-idea plan gave 566 lbs. surplus, while the one worked on the tiering-up plan gave about 400 lbs., thus showing that I had only 166 lbs. more honey as a result for double the brood reared. [...] The average from the whole apiary that year was 166.6 pounds from each old colony in the spring, all of which was comb honey, excepting that from the two colonies worked for extracted, the whole number in the apiary in the spring being 69.
    So - an apiary average of 166 pounds, yet these two particular 'Gallup' Long Hives returned 566 and 400 lbs. And yet so often we hear that Long Hives cannot produce a useful honey crop ! And double the brood resulted at a time when the hive was being opened twice a week.

    Perhaps the above report is worth investigating further ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Gallup frames, 11.25" x 11.25".
    You know, LJ,
    I was thinking how to best utilize a full box of free Jumbo frames I scored recently (and bragged about it too).

    The frames already being 11.25'' tall (very conveniently), I just need to shorten the top/bottom bars in some smart way and go for it - these will make close approximations of the Gallup frames.
    These frames could be used interchangeably in compact, ergo-verticals or long-hives - the same frame.
    I don't really care using them as-is (being too long at 435mm - my entire operation is based on ~300mm/13" frames anyway across all boxes - be it nucs or long hives or the ergo-verticals)

    These, I mean:
    20181223_185343.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Hmmm... this suggests that to get maximal honey production for a horizontal hive, little honey should be left in the hive for long stretches. So expecting the bees to draw out the equivalent of a super is the opposite management to use... rather take the honey as it is capped?

    An 11x11ish" frame is about 121 in2 in surface area... I calculated that a Kenyan top bar hive frame is equivalent to a 14.5" wide by 12" tall rectangle (assuming 17" wide comb at top, 12" deep, and 12" at the base). It's a trapezoid, geometry, ya know. Anyways, the Kenyan is about 168 in2, so 30% bigger. And those are not usually managed by harvesting so often...

    My guess is that those hives had brood nests that were less often blocked with nectar compared to a double deep brood nest.

    I'm going to have to try that out this year with my top bars that are the width/depth of a Lang - except I will use shallow frames rather than bars at this point. Time to take advantage of extraction!

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by trishbookworm View Post
    Hmmm... this suggests that to get maximal honey production for a horizontal hive, little honey should be left in the hive for long stretches. So expecting the bees to draw out the equivalent of a super is the opposite management to use... rather take the honey as it is capped?
    Hi Trish - I think that's a fair summary. However, after checking 'Gleanings' for the following 3 years I was very surprised to learn that no-one had seized upon the potential of this procedure. I was also curious about Doolittle's own lack of enthusiasm for it:
    "... thus showing that I had only 166 lbs. more honey as a result for double the brood reared."
    I've since learned that Doolittle's article was in fact the final salvo in an argument which had started the previous year, with Doolittle initially expressing a very negative opinion of Long Hives in general (which I'm sad to say demonstrates that even Doolittle was guilty of both ignorance and prejudice - more on that in another post) but even so, in regard to this particular issue all is not quite as rosy as might first appear.

    I think it's fair to assume that the removal of honey causes brood-rearing to be stimulated due to the colony recognising (somehow) that the existing number of bees is insufficient to provide enough stores for winter survival - and so more bees are duly generated. Which is great news for a bee-farmer, and dispells the myth that you can't produce both honey AND bees at the same time. BUT - think about the season ...

    Honey is being removed during the flow (obviously), and the bees' response to this is to then generate more brood to create roughly double the number of bees - but this enlarged number of bees will result towards the end, or even after the flow. So, you've then got double the number of mouths to feed, with most of them sitting around idle, as at that time there will be nothing much in the way of nectar coming into the hive. Bags of bees - but at the wrong time of the season (unless you happen to be a bee-farmer).

    This of course is a recipe for swarming, which Doolittle completely fails to mention in the above source - but - in a much earlier tirade against the 'Long-idea' beehive (which was quickly countered by those with more experience and expertise with them than Doolittle) he cites both excessive swarming and the hive's inability to over-winter as being core features of horizontal hives.

    . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Now that Horizontal Hives (in general) have a suitable home for discussion, I think it might be useful to examine the early experiences of the Long-idea Hive in America, contrasting these with those of the broadly similar hive styles of Eastern Europe.
    I'm currently delving into American Long Hive history as revealed in 'Gleanings' 1873 onwards, and will post relevant articles as they emerge. I'm hoping that Greg will be able to supply the Eastern European perspective.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    LJ; Look for a Mr. O.O. Poppleton, he used the Long-Idea hive commercially in Florida. His obituary is in the December 1917 issue of the American Bee Journal.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Yes, many thanks - he's a new name to me, but seems he was a frequent writer, 'earlier on' ...

    This is how he ends his own rebuttal to Doolittle in 1898 (who by this time is getting his wrists well and truly slapped ) :
    I have answered Mr. Heise's questions briefly; but if he or any one else should decide on testing the use of these hives, I would suggest that he will find the subject gone into much more fully in an article, or, rather, articles, published in Gleanings some 12 or 15 years ago, under the head of "How to Use Single-story Hives." O. O. Poppleton.
    So - will now be digging much further back in the archives ...

    Thanks for the heads-up,
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    LJ
    I'm looking eagerly to what you find out. Sounds like a lot of info has been "lost" over time.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by r2t2 View Post
    LJ
    I'm looking eagerly to what you find out. Sounds like a lot of info has been "lost" over time.
    A lot of this stuff is, of course, opinion and argument (heated debates within the beekeeping community being nothing new !) regarding hive types and frame sizes - but I've already found one nugget of indisputable value.

    Doolittle is being questioned about methods used within his book 'Scientific Queen Rearing' some nine years after that book was published - in particular, querying whether Doolittle himself is continuing to use those methods.

    Doolittle replies that he does indeed continue to use those methods - unchanged - but has been puzzled to learn that so many others have not succeeded like himself. He makes the point that he's had nothing whatsoever to do with the book since it was sent (apparently free of charge) to the publishers - and so for the readership's benefit then proceeds to describe in far more detail than in the book his exact procedure, right from the selection and preparation of the hive/colony to be used for queen-rearing - well before the actual procedure commences - right through to releasing the finished queens into colonies and the subsequent feeding (or not) of them.

    That particular article runs to well over 2000 words, with other articles being double that length - so I need to find some suitable method of passing-on this info without creating excessively long posts. Will be tackling this tonight.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    We really need a like button.This is interesting.

    I got a long hive simply because my back wont let me use a 'normal' one.
    I think all newbies should have one like mine- got a window, screened bottom with sliding solid boards, 30 standard frames wide, 2 follower boards....just need a beek that hurries up with her learning curve.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    As far as honey production goes, in my neck of the woods, I am wondering if I have half-hearted honey flows. I keep getting combs like this one - ignore the tiny patch of capped brood - tb_halfcapped_med.jpg - where the bees cap half and then leave the rest uncapped... for the rest of the summer.

    And to solve that, I was already going to use shallow frames so I could extract and then give them back the frames and not require wax to be drawn to get stored honey.

    I also get beautiful capped full combs, but not always from the biggest colonies. I will be selecting from those queens this year - assuming they make it! So far, they ain't dead yet...

    I will definitely say that in 2017 my colonies were not big enough - the bees covered about 14 of the equivalent of 25 total bars, that are the size of a Lang deep. This year they filled the whole space - but refused to draw new bars or shallow frames during the honey flow. Unless it was to make drone brood. Gah!!!

    I have definitely absorbed a different perspective on how bees... live... by being a top bar beek. For example, when bees are drawing out comb just after a virgin queen comes back mated, they draw small celled comb - as in, the size on foundation or brood comb. If the queen don't make it back, they draw honey sized or drone sized. Something about an impending need for cells for eggs triggers brood sized cells to be made by the bees. Dadant documented this too - in his book, http://www.nwpabeekeepers.com/upload...eping_1920.pdf , large file, warning - he claimed the bees drew out the larger, honey-sized cell as a default, and only drew the smaller, brood sized if the queen was harassing them for space.
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    Last edited by trishbookworm; 02-04-2019 at 08:43 PM. Reason: clarify

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by trishbookworm View Post
    As far as honey production goes, in my neck of the woods, I am wondering if I have half-hearted honey flows. I keep getting combs like this one - ignore the tiny patch of capped brood - tb_halfcapped_med.jpg - where the bees cap half and then leave the rest uncapped... for the rest of the summer.

    And to solve that, I was already going to use shallow frames so I could extract and then give them back the frames and not require wax to be drawn to get stored honey..
    So this is an inherent problem of a horizontal hive - somehow getting the small incremental crops out.
    My hives are OK for harvesting crop in the end of the season (in fall really, like a good peasant would - that is exactly how peasant hives work by design). But they are not so great at harvesting any honey mid-summer or early summer - this is because most all frames contain intermix if brood and honey. Those early crops end up as honey bands above the brood - good for the bees - not so good for the keeper mid-year honey-tax collections.

    Solution to this is simple - stop being a hard-line horizontal hive keeper.
    Look into integrating mini-supers with mini-frames into the hives - yep, right into the horizontal hives above the main nest.
    Yes, this will require pass-through top bars and some space above the bars.
    This is exactly what I am going to try this new season.

    I am evolving away from being a hard-liner horizontal keeper and would rather be able to collect my taxes as I see fit.
    One example why:
    - more than once now I caught swarms that will eat through the honey stores before I can get any share of it (because of intermixed brood and honey I can not easily get them off the large frames);
    - using mini-frames (think 1/2 Gallup size) in mini-supers above the nest (say 5-6 frames like in Dartington hive) I think one could isolate and then harvest small incremental crops as they come along;
    - with mini-frames and mini-supers, this is still good ergonomics for the keeper;
    Last edited by GregV; 02-04-2019 at 11:09 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    FWIW - I came across one 'Natural Beekeeping' (there has to be a better term to use than that ?) site recently, and although I tend to wince/ roll my eyes at sites which describe themselves as such, I was pleasantly surprised to read the following introduction which I thought was a particularly fair and balanced summary of the current 'state of play':

    Introduction
    It is only in the last 150 years that we have such strong standardization of the beehive. The ubiquitous white boxes we associate with beehives are called 'Langstroth Hives' and lend themselves particularly well to industrial scale beekeeping. Before this and during the end of the 19th and early 20th century there was much discourse about different types of hive and hive systems ... which were best for the bees and which would produce the most honey.

    We are now at a moment when many are interested in the de-industrialization of beekeeping and the pursuit of honeybees for their health and well-being as much as for the products of their hives. To this end beekeepers and innovators are looking at how to support bees, letting them build and live their lives as they would with little human intervention. To this goal beekeepers are coming back to some old ideas that worked well to begin with.
    http://beerepair.com/index.php/alter...-hive-systems/
    But - having suggested that there were numerous hives and systems under discussion in 'the early days', the writer then unfortunately succumbs to the 'old trap' of comparing just Top Bar, Warre, and Langstroth hives - almost as if these are the only three options available. (Which was also mirrored in this forum's structure until the last few days.)
    I'm not without sympathy for this perspective however, as people cannot reasonably be expected to be aware of those things which have - for all intents-and-purposes - disappeared off the radar during the last century or so.

    I think it's worthwhile bearing in mind that beekeeping systems (box and frame sizes etc) in the immediate post-Langstroth era were promoted by hive manufacturers with profit in mind: how to achieve maximum revenue from minimal manufacturing and material costs - with the most aggressive marketing winning the day. And of course, once the 'opposition' has been effectively destroyed - that's that - it's highly unlikely to get a second bite at the cherry against an existing and well-established customer-base.

    A straw poll was held in 'Gleanings', Jan, 1890 regarding the frame sizes preferred by prominent beekeepers of the day. This is what the Editor (A.I. Root - the principle manufacturer of Langstroth equipment) concluded:

    The general preference seems to be for the Langstroth frame, and we had no doubt that it would ; and the fact that it is in so general use, if for no other reason, should induce not only those just commencing, but those who can think of making a change, to get as quickly as possible into line. From the above, the Gallup frame seems to come next in the way of preference. Very likely, however, the American frame would answer almost every purpose, unless it is that it is a little too deep. There are some very good reasons for having a frame still larger than the Langstroth, such as the suspended Quinby, used by the Dadants ; but I think that he who uses something different from the common run will sooner or later suffer by it. Our friend Dr. C. C. Miller has something almost like the L., but not quite. During years past he has raised only comb honey, and has therefore got along very well ; but should he undertake selling bees and queens, as I think he has some idea of doing, he will find himself in an embarrassing situation. Nobody wants to buy bees in a frame that is almost but not quite an L. A great deal depends upon what one is accustomed to ; and I feel quite certain that those who have expressed a preference for something different from the L. could, with very little loss, when they really got at it, manage to accomplish every thing with the L. that they accomplish with the other frames. In our manufacturing business, every year that passes brings us larger orders for the L. frame, and smaller ones for all other kinds. A few days ago a man sent in an order for a single Gallup hive. Now, although we have illustrated and given the dimensions of the Gallup frame for 12 or 15 years, we have not had a single order for a Gallup hive in two or three years. Not one of our hands, not even the oldest ones, knew how to go to work to make one, without instruction ; and this is the case while we have shipments of hives holding the L. frame, going out by the carload almost constantly.
    Standardisation within the commercial sector may well be highly desirable, but I find it difficult not to be a tad cynical about such highly influential marketing pressure from someone who was both an editor AND manufacturer.

    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    I recently came across one maverick beekeeper in Wisconsin who used Langstroth hives for comb honey, but much preferred his "shot-tower hives" for extracting - these had two boxes, each containing nine frames 21" tall by 13" wide, which he said wintered better and swarmed less.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I recently came across one maverick beekeeper in Wisconsin who used Langstroth hives for comb honey, but much preferred his "shot-tower hives" for extracting - these had two boxes, each containing nine frames 21" tall by 13" wide, which he said wintered better and swarmed less.
    LJ
    Ask him for a picture or something?
    I am all eyes!
    He could be near and I did now know.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post

    I think it's worthwhile bearing in mind that beekeeping systems (box and frame sizes etc) in the immediate post-Langstroth era were promoted by hive manufacturers with profit in mind: how to achieve maximum revenue from minimal manufacturing and material costs - with the most aggressive marketing winning the day. And of course, once the 'opposition' has been effectively destroyed - that's that - it's highly unlikely to get a second bite at the cherry against an existing and well-established customer-base.
    LJ
    LJ, let me add a bit..

    Not only big private business pushed for their preferred frame (and box around it).

    The state-driven business did exactly the same - the mega-farm, communisitic approach in former Soviet Union did the same - eliminated anything and everything in the name of universal standardization and even made alternative hive models virtually illegal (one prominent Ukrainian beekeeper was made into an example and sent to Siberian camps).

    Who won?
    Dadant.
    Well, they (the Dadants) did not see any profits from the universal adoption of their standards by a communist state, obviously...

    But you can see how similar are state-driven and privately driven monopolies. Beekeeping is a perfect example.

    I have some interesting translation to do just about this happening in early 20th century in the young Soviet Union.
    When I get to it.
    Last edited by GregV; 02-05-2019 at 03:25 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Apologises for the delay in getting some of the 'Gleanings' posts into a form suitable for download. I've just compiled 2 for now - the Doolittle Queen-Rearing post I mentioned earlier - and the Gallup/ Long Hive thread which is a monster at some 6000 words.
    Rather than display these as .html pages - which I might do later - I thought I'd just upload them as .txt files for now. They can be downloaded from : http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beekxx.htm - or via my website 'front page'.

    Hope somebody finds these of interest - any problems with those files, give me shout.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Ask him for a picture or something?
    I am all eyes!
    He could be near and I did now know.
    Oh - sorry mate - I meant "came across" in Gleanings, 1880-ish ...
    No pics, just a passing mention - from a subscriber to the magazine.

    It must have been quite a hive - I'd have loved to have seen that !
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Oh - sorry mate - I meant "came across" in Gleanings, 1880-ish ...
    No pics, just a passing mention - from a subscriber to the magazine.

    It must have been quite a hive - I'd have loved to have seen that !
    LJ
    Oh, gee, man!
    I thought for a minute there you found one of those old back-wood folks who just quietly keep the bees and don't give a hoot about the Internet. I was getting ready to drive there somewhere!
    1880-ish.. shucks.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    watching

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    Default Re: The 'Gallup' Long Hive.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Apologises for the delay in getting some of the 'Gleanings' posts into a form suitable for download. I've just compiled 2 for now - the Doolittle Queen-Rearing post I mentioned earlier - and the Gallup/ Long Hive thread which is a monster at some 6000 words.
    Rather than display these as .html pages - which I might do later - I thought I'd just upload them as .txt files for now. They can be downloaded from : http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beekxx.htm - or via my website 'front page'.

    Hope somebody finds these of interest - any problems with those files, give me shout.

    LJ
    Thanks LJ.
    Downloaded just fine.
    A simple text file is about the best, the most efficient, and the most reliable media - it just works for those willing to read it (no IFs or BUTs).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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