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  1. #121
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    We could argue for another 6 pages about what constitutes "air pollution."
    There are few simple enough items on the "air pollution" list:
    - vehicular exhaust
    - industrial manufacturing exhaust
    - fossil fuel burn exhaust

    If just the most obvious things are addressed - that is some good progress.

    I sometimes wonder if the climate change discussion is a huge big "red herring" invented by large manufacturing/energy business.
    You complicate and convolute the thing on purpose so that more simple and obvious things do not get addressed due to "complications".

    Who immediately wins from doing nothing?
    Well, everyone - kind of wins (and it shows right on this forum - everyone is better off by doing nothing - in short term).
    (But just like everyone kind of wins from latest tax cuts - except some win $50 and the others win $50000000...).
    So, those who win the biggest - those people actually drive the discussion (quietly, but they do).

    Meanwhile, the execs just keep laughing all way to the bank, and eventually happily retire to their private Caribbean islands.
    And so it goes....
    The "red herring" thing works too well.
    But cutting the pollution is really simple (unpopular - yes; but still simple - jack the prices up).

    PS: google up how the sugar industry invented the big, bad fat stories (and low-fat diet diversions, etc, etc) and sold it for generations (just so the sugar dangers stayed under the radar - a classic red herring);
    the sugar execs kept laughing all way to the bank for good old time; and still do..

    OK, here are quick links about you proactively and thoughtfully shift the blame and convolute things for your own gain:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/w...me-to-fat.html
    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...t-blame-at-fat
    https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...-didnt-tell-us
    Last edited by GregV; 02-05-2019 at 02:33 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    It's the incessant building of mountains out of mole hills that sticks in my craw.
    Many are always fearful, afraid even of their own shadows.
    Unable to admit that fear is the root cause of their views and driving their actions.

  4. #123
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Greg:

    "Exhaust" is not simple at all. I am familiar with coal plants from the work that I do. Burning coal releases mercury, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and at least 10 additional pollutants into the air. The resultant ash produces arsenic, cadmium, lead, selenium and at least a dozen more toxins into the ground and potentially the ground water.

    We can actually "scrub" many of those chemicals out of the air and ash, and we (at least theoretically) can contain many of those pollutants that can't be scrubbed into lined and capped landfills. This is what many are attempting to call "Clean Coal." What has proven out, however, is that this effort to burn "Clean Coal" has negated the whole reason we liked to burn coal: it was cheap.

    But not anymore. With the political uncertainty surrounding coal, energy producers simply cannot take the economic gamble of investing hundreds of millions of dollars into these plant to render them "Clean." That is why we are all shuttering our coal plants all across the country.

    The irony is that it was never going to be "Clean Coal" anyway. For all the advances we have made, we have never been able to capture or "scrub" the carbon dioxide released from the burning of coal.

    So, good riddance to coal? Well . . .

    Our country is now becoming almost totally dependent on natural gas. We are slowly losing any ability to diversify. Renewables -- unless you live in the Pacific Northwest, the wind-blown mid-west states or already have a vast system of hydros like you will find in Canada and limited other places -- are just not ready for Utility scale energy production yet. I hope they will get there and feel that they, along with advanced battery technology, will be the future. But no one that understands the power industry believes that we are there now.

    It personally makes me nervous to be completely dependent on a single commodities market -- natural gas. What would happen if fracking were banned? What might happen to the markets if it is even seriously considered? Natural gas could go from $3.00/mmBTU to $18.00. And if that happens on a -5 degree night in Missouri, where there is no wind and no sun and no hydroelectric dams, you will either pay that $1,200 electric bill or freeze to death. Utilities will no longer have the power to switch you to another fuel.

    I ride the fence on global warming. I believe it is happening and I believe we are the cause. However, I live in a poor area of the country. The majority of the older people in my county live almost exclusively from their Social Security checks. Cheap power is important not only to their way of life, but to their maintenance of life.

    There is nothing about these decisions that is simple. It is all very difficult in my view.

  5. #124
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Greg:

    "Exhaust" is not simple at all. It is all very difficult in my view.
    So, I did not mean simple in terms of implementation.
    Simple in terms of identification of the worthy target.

    There are too many targets; some are not worthy; others are not obvious.

    Exhaust is worthy and obvious target.
    Even just car exhaust segment is a worthy target.

    Cow poop generated methane?
    How about cow farts? Also pollution, technically.
    Let this one slide for now and not get distracted.... This is peanuts.
    For an example of simple vs. not simple.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #125
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Greg:
    ... Cheap power is important not only to their way of life, but to their maintenance of life....
    Here, I grew up with this heating device.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%...CAQQDg#imgrc=_

    It works great but requires some physical labor (to handle the fire wood, you know).
    Wood is cheap (free for taking all over at my location), and a renewable resource.
    BUT still emits pollution.
    BUT makes you independent of the markets and calamities in many ways.
    So - an efficient, modern wood stove is one thing I still mean to install in my dwelling.
    1)Just in case for heating and cooking, 2)to burn hive making leftovers and any wooden scraps from the area, and 3)to bring back the childhood memories of watching the fire.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #126
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    psm1212
    The low hanging fruit in the NE to my view is heat pumps. To me the analysis of comparative efficiency with oil furnaces/boilers is odd. Can't do one without the other. Oil heat at 50 degrees and 90 to 120 btu per hour capacity is like driving a tractor trailer to pick up groceries because you move every 5 years. HPs are wrong at 0 and oil is wrong at 50. Together works. Well worth tax support.

    Impact on daily living; not much.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #127
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    I don't profess to have the answers or the solutions. New technologies cannabalize old ones every day and there will always be pain in that.

    As to wood burning stoves, that would be excellent, so long as the trees are growing as fast as you are cutting them down. Wood burning is said to be carbon-neutral provided that the wood is burned in the exact proportion that it is grown.

    However, if we must replace all of the BTUs currently produced through burning coal, I think you know what will happen there.

  9. #128
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    This is what "extreme" weather looks like today: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-...ziers/10785588

    Dry as a bone yesterday flood today.
    Last edited by max2; 02-06-2019 at 01:46 AM. Reason: Up-date
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

  10. #129
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    This is what " extreme " weather looks like today: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-...-home/10782008
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

  11. #130
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    http://www.bushfarms.com/images/450k...o2_524x291.jpg

    Here's the temperature and CO2 over the last 450,000 years... I'm sure we did not create all these ups and downs since people were supposedly not even here for most of this...
    Mike,
    As Paul Harvey demonstrated many times, the whole story is important and often leads to a different conclusion than an an excerpt.
    Here is the entire graphic from NASA which shows the amount of CO2 from 400,000 BC to 2005. (see attached also)

    A comment about man-induced vs "natural" climate changes:
    The eruption of Krakatoa in August of 1883 released 20 million tons of sulfur into the atmosphere and produced a volcanic winter (reducing worldwide temperatures by an average of 2.2F for five years). This was significant change in the weather but short lived because natural environmental processes were able to absorb the sulfur and restore the atmospheric equilibrium.

    Anthroprogenic CO2 is not a single event but a continuous release which has been growing for the past 300 years. In 1751, the estimated release of CO2 was 11 million tonnes; in 2008 it was 32 billion tonnes.
    1) The start of the growth in CO2 atmospheric concentration coincides with the start of the industrial revolution, hence anthropogenic;
    2) The increase in CO2 concentration over the long term almost exactly correlates with cumulative anthropogenic emissions, hence anthropogenic;
    3) The Annual CO2 concentration growth is less than Annual CO2 emissions, hence anthropogenic;
    4) The declining C14 ratio indicates the source is very old, hence fossil fuel or volcanic (ie, not oceanic outgassing or a recent biological source);
    5) The declining C13 ratio indicates a biological source, hence not volcanic;
    6) The declining O2 concentration indicate combustion, hence not volcanic;
    7) The partial pressure of CO2 in the ocean is increasing, hence not oceanic outgassing;
    8) The measured CO2 emissions from all (surface and beneath the sea) volcanoes are one-hundredth of anthropogenic CO2 emissions; hence not volcanic;
    9) The known changes in biomass too small by a factor of 10, hence not deforestation; and
    10) The known changes of CO2 concentration with temperature are too small by a factor of 10, hence not ocean outgassing.

    Conclusion: Anthroprogenic CO2 releases have surpassed the planet's ability to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  12. #131
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    This is what " extreme " weather looks like today: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-...-home/10782008
    Very sad Max, my sympathies to those people.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #132
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Very sad Max, my sympathies to those people.
    And meanwhile, the entire topic was started as:

    "How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?"

    Well, not too well.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #133
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    78 degrees here on February 06, 2019 in NC. Record breaking. Maybe we need to change the subject . . . .

  15. #134
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    This should be kept simple - cut the air pollution.
    Whatever happens after that - is out of human control and is to be adapted to.
    But the pollution must go.
    In addition to air pollution, there is ocean pollution in the form of mercury and other residues of fossil fuel use. This is a major issue.

    Recent catastrophic storms: Puerto Rico, Kauai, Australia, and there are others that don't come to mind. So, sorry for those which I failed to mention.
    Hyper storms are enhanced by warmer ocean water.

  16. #135
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by roddo27846 View Post
    78 degrees here on February 06, 2019 in NC. Record breaking. Maybe we need to change the subject . . . .
    -14 here right now and still dropping. Hasn't been above zero F in nearly a week. Supposed to get really cold this coming weekend.

  17. #136
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the bee guy View Post
    Big blobs of cold air has been coming down from the poles as long as I can remember. Sometime they think they are the first ones to have noticed that it's happened. Whats new to them is old news to me. The cold air is moving on to some other part of the world this weekend my old bones will be happy then.
    I'm only in my 70's, but our cold snaps up here used to last considerably longer than they have over last 10-15 years. Our winter's overall have been getting milder. It was once common to expect up to 4' of annual snowfall and at least 2-3 week stretches of sub zero temps during December/Jan/Feb, now we get a day or three and then it gets relatively mild again. Our biggest accumulations would occur in November/December, now we get most of our big storms in March and Even April some years (and that really sucks for bees!!) Hunting season this past Fall was snow free and in the 60's (not good tracking or meat packing weather).

    This particular Winter we've witnessed something never experience before. One full day of Rain (temps in mid 30's) around Xmas followed by freezing and then 2 more days of rain in January with same result.

    Consistent and unusual FREEZE and THAW has made a mess of things in Northern Wisconsin. Added to that, we've had less than normal snow falls, and anyone with septic tanks knows how important ample snow is for such systems to operate properly. All around us our neighbors are dealing with frozen pipes that never froze before, due to less than desirable snow.

    ICE in particular has been the primary issue up here with all the temp swings that are causing thaws (no place for water to go when the ground is frozen) and freezing. This change in our climate has been been slow coming but coming it is. Personally, I think it's speeding up TBH, but what do I know? I do remember reading over 30 years ago that Northern Wisconsin would eventually be more like Southern Illinois by the end of the century.

    Glad I won't be around for that.

    "I've seen the future brother, it is murder" - Leonard Cohen

  18. #137
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy View Post
    I'm only in my 70's, but our cold snaps up here used to last considerably longer than they have over last 10-15 years. Our winter's overall have been getting milder. It was once common to expect up to 4' of annual snowfall and at least 2-3 week stretches of sub zero temps during December/Jan/Feb, now we get a day or three and then it gets relatively mild again. Our biggest accumulations would occur in November/December, now we get most of our big storms in March and Even April some years (and that really sucks for bees!!) Hunting season this past Fall was snow free and in the 60's (not good tracking or meat packing weather).

    This particular Winter we've witnessed something never experience before. One full day of Rain (temps in mid 30's) around Xmas followed by freezing and then 2 more days of rain in January with same result.

    Consistent and unusual FREEZE and THAW has made a mess of things in Northern Wisconsin. Added to that, we've had less than normal snow falls, and anyone with septic tanks knows how important ample snow is for such systems to operate properly. All around us our neighbors are dealing with frozen pipes that never froze before, due to less than desirable snow.

    ICE in particular has been the primary issue up here with all the temp swings that are causing thaws (no place for water to go when the ground is frozen) and freezing. This change in our climate has been been slow coming but coming it is. Personally, I think it's speeding up TBH, but what do I know? I do remember reading over 30 years ago that Northern Wisconsin would eventually be more like Southern Illinois by the end of the century.

    Glad I won't be around for that.

    "I've seen the future brother, it is murder" - Leonard Cohen
    I seriously doubt we are seeing something never seen before. Never is a long long time. Change is the constant.

    The perfect illustration of change for me came in the eighties when a friend took me waterfowling a hundred miles from my area on his homesteader families farm. When we walked out to the 'lake' in the pasture, we walked by what had been a feedlot with the tops just sticking out of the water. A large steel machine shop opened on a lapping shore of that lake. You could see a good gravel yard running in front of the rest of the farmstead running into the lake. A hundred yards out in the water a yellow road sign saying narrow bridge was underwater up to that message.

    We sat on the shore of the "lake" in a washed gravel shoreline hiding in the weeds on a cut bank like water had lapped there for centuries. We started marveling about our surroundings and though this lake was only a few years having been dry broken ground grazed by cattle, it was now 15 feet deep in the middle according to the farmer. As we sat on our beach, we looked up the sidehill at a succession of other beaches cut into the hillside and the water rounded stones sticking out of the overgrazed land. This had once been a much larger body of water! My family settled in North Dakota a hundred miles south of this area near Devils Lake ND My dad would relate everytime we drove in to that town to visit that there was a lot of farm machinery out under that water as that lake had been dry in the thirties and people were farming the rich lake bottom. Thirty miles out of the town was a town called Churches Ferry which my mother instructed was there because a ferry had once taken people across the lake. That lake is now huge and a great fishery. But when the white man settled there in the 1870's, the Indians called it devils lake because it had previously been shallow and alkaline enough no fish lived in it. So that lake and region has been under water and then dry twice since the civil war!

    We just are not permanent here. We could not change the motor of this change if we tried.

  19. #138
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    We could not change the motor of this change if we tried.
    More afraid that by not trying we are the motor. Even if not the motor, pulling on the wheel.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  20. #139
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    I seriously doubt we are seeing something never seen before. Never is a long long time. Change is the constant.


    We just are not permanent here. We could not change the motor of this change if we tried.
    I agree, change is the constant.

    I remember hunting the hills near Trent, Texas as a young man. Everywhere you looked there were all sorts of fossilized sea life. Now there are wind turbines on those hills that can be easily seen from I-20.

    I also remember back in the '80's we had to get rid of the cfc's and phase out and replace refrigerant for our air conditioning in order to save the planet. I thought it was all worked out. I guess all that money made has been spent, so on to the next crisis.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  21. #140
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    Default Re: How is that Global Warming thing working out for you?

    just normal weather in Minn. luckily Vance G was able so find his cat.

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/animal-cli...opstories.html
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

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