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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Drummerboy:

    I don't know if the following article/video adds any additional information to the conversation regarding Darwinian Beekeeping, but I thought I would share it if there is anything helpful in here:

    https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.o...ian-beekeeping

    https://www.facebook.com/naturalbeek...2467957782147/

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Jan 2019. I just read the article last night. First time I've read about Darwinian Beekeeping. Interesting.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    I apologize for the late reply. It’s amazing how work, conferences, short courses and hive maintenance can eat up the winter.

    I said last fall when I decided to try Darwinian Beekeeping, even if I was down to one hive I would work off it.

    Well, I’m down to one hive. All of these losses were winter dead outs (not euthanized). I lost about two a month. The one that remains seems strong. I can only inspect on the weekends and every weekend has been rainy or cold or both. (BTW, whoever keeps praying for rain needs to knock it off!)

    Anyway, I’m going to stick with the plan. I’ve decided to put hives in a circle (entrances facing out) instead of 30yds. apart. I talked to Jennifer Berry at UGA and she mentioned that they did a study and found that the drifting was the same or better when the hives are in a circle.

    To answer the question about my mite threshold, I euthanized hives in the fall if they had more than 3/100 and definite signs of decline. They got a soap bath because I don’t have the freezer space.

    I haven't decided if I'm going to vary from Seeley and keep my upper entrances or not.

    The advantages of this heavy loss (and believe me, I’m looking for them) is that I now have a ton of drawn comb and I was able to do intensive equipment maintenance this winter

    I’ll have every bait hive and box I have in service as swarm traps. I’m trying to find some treatment free bees in my area but it’s tough. Most of the keepers here treat and I’m getting my share of eye rolls for trying this.

    I’m working under the old adage that it has to get worse before it gets better.

    Good, Bad, or Ugly . . . I’ll keep you posted.

  5. #44
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    great to hear back from you kathleen, many thanks for the update.

    beesource member 'tpope' is rearing queens on the other side of the state from you and may be able to help you out with some tf genetics.

    you can see his thread here:

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...treatment-free
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen Bourn View Post

    To answer the question about my mite threshold, I euthanized hives in the fall if they had more than 3/100 and definite signs of decline. They got a soap bath because I don’t have the freezer space.

    I haven't decided if I'm going to vary from Seeley and keep my upper entrances or not.
    Kathleen:

    I appreciated reading your update, and thank you for cluing us in on your threshold.

    I too have struggled with the upper entrance question- while I don't have too much to compare it to, it seems that one of my hives in particular has appreciated the upper entrance this winter- and the whole nexus between ventilation, moisture, insulation and overwintering success seems to have a lot of factors associated with it that I do hope to better understand.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathleen Bourn View Post
    I haven't decided if I'm going to vary from Seeley and keep my upper entrances or not.
    The more I study about the primitive beekeeping, the more I question Seeley's conclusions.

    He never once clarifies that his studies are really done in relatively new growth forest (typical of North America where the old growth is hard to come by).
    Hence some of the conclusions made in the "The nest of the honeybee".
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #47

    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Hence some of the conclusions made in the "The nest of the honeybee".
    Do you know, that he travelled the whole World dissecting honey bee nests? Probably he knows a thing or two about the topic, even outside the Arnot Forest.


  9. #48
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post

    Bernhard:

    Thank you for sharing the video- I enjoyed watching it. I had to look up, 'Heideimkerei' but I guess it roughly translates as 'Heath Beekeeping'?

    I suppose the normative skep in this approach employs a single upper entrance?

    Thanks again for sharing- I've enjoyed reading your posts on the Warre forum.

    Russ

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Do you know, that he travelled the whole World dissecting honey bee nests? Probably he knows a thing or two about the topic, even outside the Arnot Forest.
    I am sure he does know things.
    And I am sure he traveled far more than I.

    But his early book "The nest of the honey bee" is referred to often and is taken literally as if a "bible".
    I refer to it also - sure.
    But some depictions are not accurate if taken as a general situation, IMO.
    Like this one suggest low placed entrance as the usual case:
    NaturalBeeNestBySeeley.jpg

    Per what I have been reading, I am starting to see a different picture - typical natural bee tree entrances in the upper-half or about the middle of the cavity are more usual.
    Does it matter?
    Maybe.
    Should we be question things?
    We must.
    The standardized "small cell" global solution to all problems comes to mind (as not really working).
    As well as the doctrine that "large bee is a good bee" fits the same mold.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #50
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Location, location, location. Here the entrance in the bottom 1/4 of the cavity is the norm.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    Location, location, location. Here the entrance in the bottom 1/4 of the cavity is the norm.
    Exactly - location drives the need.
    Not some "bible".
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #52
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    Oct 2014
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    Hart County, Georgia
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Ok, today was the day to "circle up". Instead of circling the wagons, I circled the hives. (maybe that's the key to fighting varroa)Attachment 46723
    I'm also finally getting a chance to check on my remaining hive. If they have drones and the weather holds, they're getting split.

    I put out every bait hive, Langstroth, Top Bar, Warre and Layens hive I have for swarm catching. I'm even going to try some Russian Scions.
    I put all my Langs in a circle with the entrances facing out and about 15 feet apart. This is one of the variations I'm making to Seeley's Darwinian Beekeeping layout.

    Getting them level in this pasture was a bear but it'll be a lot easier managing them from inside the circle rather than 30yds. apart.
    I'm going to keep both the upper and lower entrances open but small. I've had hives before that seem to choose which one they prefer. I had only one hive propolise the upper entrance in the winter but then they opened it back up again in the spring. Also, because they'll now be in full sun, I'm hoping the extra ventilation helps.

    BTW, thank you squarepeg for the queen idea. I'll check it out.

    Keep Beeing

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Squarepeg, how do we know that bees "prefer" the hollow tree that we assume to be their natural habitat? Wouldn't that tend to make putting swarm traps in a forested area pointless? I think experience has shown us that bees willingly choose some places to set up housekeeping that we find very strange, and not at all tree-like. Maybe the tree is what they take when nothing better presents itself. Regarding #2, I imagine that bee density is relative to the perceived available forage, otherwise why would swarms choose to move into boxes in an established apiary with hundreds of acres of woodlands all around? Not trying to argue, rather, serve another course to chew on.
    Hi JWPalmer Just in the 50 years I have been snoopin around in the woods, There is no where near the hollow trees one would find in what could be described as "Old growth" I know of only a couple tracts of ground that have big old hollow trees, both great swarm capture areas BTW. Most of the woods forested areas today are less than 100 years old ( logging , farming, fires, etc,) and contain firm not yet hollowed trees. Bees find their way into roofs , Barns and other man made objects, mostly because they are there. If the forested area had tons of hollow trees then I would agree the swarm trap is pointless. As I wander the woods around my yards I am lucky to find even 1 nice hollow tree, if I do it has a family of coons in it. I some what agree they are looking for a "space", 1000 years ago it was likely a hollow tree, today it could be a wide variety of things. On the bee density topic, I would have the same argument 1000 years ago the flowers in any given 9 square mile block would only support a certain number of "colonies". Today when Man plants 2000 acres of hay crop in the 9 square mile block the bee density can vary from the time of Darwin because the "flower density" is not really "normal". Talking about the Darwinian of yesteryear , while operating in the here and now, needs some more thought. The bee density can however IMO exacerbate the spread of bee disease. so it is a big "It depends" on spreading the hives apart.
    For a rob out of a hive spreading the disease 25 yards is not going to be much different than 175 yards. What is Darwinian today and in the past are different because the environment is different.
    O and BTW honey bees are an invasive species here in the USA as they were brought here from Europe.
    So I am not really sure Darwinian concepts are at work here. Better discussion maybe is should Man limit the species and sub species here in the USA to something capable of surviving in the "wild" so we effectively re populate the ferals that must have went with the dinosaurs or some other event out of the continent.
    As most of the rule making falls in the Ag world for bees this arena will get a lot more interesting.

    I just read an article today about someone who is bringing packages bees up north with an adopt a hive program, from Georgia. Admitting hardly any are surviving the winter. And the "writer/media" seem to be gaga about it. Talk about messing up a DCA or 5 DCAs and getting public support, and funded by people who "want to help". http://www.upbees.com/adopt-a-hive/
    I am all for folks helping. I guess the definition of "saving the bees" or Help is where Some of us have different opinions. On one hand there never were bees in Sault Ste Marie area, so whats the problem, on the other can Southern types of bees gain a hold in the Sault? And what If there happen to be a few northern dark bees in the wilds of this area how will drones from 30 or 40 Packages, spread around the county help with this years swarming? So many Darwins and so little time...

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    I just read an article today about someone who is bringing packages bees up north with an adopt a hive program, from Georgia. Admitting hardly any are surviving the winter. And the "writer/media" seem to be gaga about it. Talk about messing up a DCA or 5 DCAs and getting public support, and funded by people who "want to help". http://www.upbees.com/adopt-a-hive/ .
    GG,
    +1 to your description of the "old growth" situation.
    The "old growth" habitat largely does not exist.

    Now, that "adopt a hive" program is not only a non-sense - it is outright harmful and dishonest.
    It should be discredited and shown for what it really is - using public funding to undermine the locally-adapted bee (really is worse than annual, commercial package bee dumps).
    It really should just be killed.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    This is one topic I 100% agree with you guys on. Bringing southern bees to the UP to "save the northern bees" is really doing just the opposite. DCAs flooded with southern Italian drones can serve no purpose other than to weaken the locally adapted genetics. And this group is scamming people into believing they are helping. Really it just looks like they are selling honey for $35 per pound.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    This is one topic I 100% agree with you guys on. Bringing southern bees to the UP to "save the northern bees" is really doing just the opposite. DCAs flooded with southern Italian drones can serve no purpose other than to weaken the locally adapted genetics. And this group is scamming people into believing they are helping. Really it just looks like they are selling honey for $35 per pound.
    "Really it just looks like they are selling honey for $35 per pound."

    People in general want to "help" if they perceive an issue. The 300 defrays the hive cost, the package cost was a given cost any way. First 10 pounds is the rent. spread them around the country side. Interesting business plan.

    yes I had a sad day yesterday. this area just south of the Soo was an area last year I put out a frame of honey and not a single honey bee touched it for a month. I "was" going to try to breed queens there this year. And also a friend of a friend told me that one of my neighbors is ordering packages this year because he wants to save the bees, so now my main yard could be compromised With the DCA populated with drones from was south. Don't get me wrong I think the bees in the south are GREAT for the south. When we drag them across 4 or 5 state lines, we really need to understand that we are affecting local DCAs and maybe bringing in pests with the packages. I am really OK with the adopt concept if it were locally issued swarms, catch and house. Not sure ordering Packages is even in the same category.

  18. #57

    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Just a hint...

    Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees.
    Journal of Theoretical Biology 295 (2012) 168–193
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...netal-2011.pdf

    And a followup: http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...011_edited.pdf

    "The presence of the bottom cavity beneath the level of the hive inlet greatly reduces the volume of air which directly penetrates the hive body. Instead, air exchange occurs slowly as stale hive air is drawn off by a venturi effect and fresh air is slowly drawn up to replace it. Conceivably, this could offer an advantage to honeybees who are constantly under pressure to maintain the temperature of their brood. Having a bottom cavity minimizes direct exposure of the brood to influent air, effectively buffering the internal hive environment from the external world. An implicit advantage afforded by a slow exchange between the hive and ambient environments is the increased control honeybees may exert over that exchange."

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Just a hint...

    Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees.
    Journal of Theoretical Biology 295 (2012) 168–193
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...netal-2011.pdf

    And a followup: http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...011_edited.pdf

    "The presence of the bottom cavity beneath the level of the hive inlet greatly reduces the volume of air which directly penetrates the hive body. Instead, air exchange occurs slowly as stale hive air is drawn off by a venturi effect and fresh air is slowly drawn up to replace it. Conceivably, this could offer an advantage to honeybees who are constantly under pressure to maintain the temperature of their brood. Having a bottom cavity minimizes direct exposure of the brood to influent air, effectively buffering the internal hive environment from the external world. An implicit advantage afforded by a slow exchange between the hive and ambient environments is the increased control honeybees may exert over that exchange."
    Interesting article Bernhard, I hate to rain on the parade But....
    The list of 12 assumptions, and the fact that most of the data was from "Mathematical modeling" has me kind of wondering what the real world would look like. With Bees when I make assumptions, I can easily go down the wrong trail. I have 2 hives with screened bottom boards on 2x6 on edge, with a 5 inch drawer under, next to 2 hives with the standard wood bottom boards, hived the same day in the same Apiary. All 4 had 4 supers of honey.
    the last assumption, the effect of humidity on air flow is not considered, Is a big one when you model with Fluid equations. Once main flow starts for me I place a 3/8 stick on both long sides , under the top cover to greatly increase air flow. By then I am 4 or so boxes High, these tests were all on 1 deep with/or with out 1 super, so the heat rising in the collume effect also changes with each super you add. Taller stack has different heat flow than a short stack.
    Sure with a short stack and a rounded bottom you would measure or infer more venturi effect, but most of us are cooling in taller stacks with collume effect as well.
    Also not mentioned is if you start with a higher air volume in the hive it would take more time to heat it up, So the effect is the air volume changing, would impact heat transfer as well the increased surface area of the bottom tray.
    Interesting experiment, I would rather have seen more measuring, entire year, and less assumptions. By The Way it is mathematical modeling that has the world ending in 12 years due to over heating......

    3.1.2 Assumptions of the Mathematical Model
    The flow within the enclosed hive structure can be driven by several mechanisms
    including: buoyancy driven flow and natural convection, forced convection by fanning
    bees, and draft-ventilation from external wind. As in our previous investigation, we
    refined the scope of our simulations using the following assumptions:
    1. Air temperature outside the hive is constant
    2. All honeybees in the beehive are contained within the bee cover volumes
    3. Bee thermal response mechanisms are engaged in heating only – cooling mechanisms are not considered
    4. Conjugate problem is not solved - heat transfer between comb cells is neglected
    5. Mass transfer has an effect on natural convection flow - density of air is a
    function of temperature and species concentration
    6. Bee cover modeled as a porous medium
    7. Metabolic heat generation rate modeled as a function of local bee activity and
    temperature
    8. Metabolic heat generation rate is not a function of time
    9. Comb surface temperature is not a function of time
    10. Flow is steady and laminar
    11. No thermal equilibrium between bee phase and air phase in porous medium
    12. Effect of humidity on air flow is not considered
    Detailed descriptions of each assumption and their implications for our study are
    presented in Section 3.2 of our previous report [54].

  20. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Just a hint...

    Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees.
    Journal of Theoretical Biology 295 (2012) 168–193
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...netal-2011.pdf

    And a followup: http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...011_edited.pdf

    "The presence of the bottom cavity beneath the level of the hive inlet greatly reduces the volume of air which directly penetrates the hive body. Instead, air exchange occurs slowly as stale hive air is drawn off by a venturi effect and fresh air is slowly drawn up to replace it. Conceivably, this could offer an advantage to honeybees who are constantly under pressure to maintain the temperature of their brood. Having a bottom cavity minimizes direct exposure of the brood to influent air, effectively buffering the internal hive environment from the external world. An implicit advantage afforded by a slow exchange between the hive and ambient environments is the increased control honeybees may exert over that exchange."
    Interesting article Bernhard, I hate to rain on the parade But....
    The list of 12 assumptions, and the fact that most of the data was from "Mathematical modeling" has me kind of wondering what the real world would look like. With Bees when I make assumptions, I can easily go down the wrong trail. I have 2 hives with screened bottom boards on 2x6 on edge, with a 5 inch drawer under, next to 2 hives with the standard wood bottom boards, hived the same day in the same Apiary. All 4 had 4 supers of honey.
    the last assumption, the effect of humidity on air flow is not considered, Is a big one when you model with Fluid equations. Once main flow starts for me I place a 3/8 stick on both long sides , under the top cover to greatly increase air flow. By then I am 4 or so boxes High, these tests were all on 1 deep with/or with out 1 super, so the heat rising in the collume effect also changes with each super you add. Taller stack has different heat flow than a short stack.
    Sure with a short stack and a rounded bottom you would measure or infer more venturi effect, but most of us are cooling in taller stacks with collume effect as well.
    Also not mentioned is if you start with a higher air volume in the hive it would take more time to heat it up, So the effect is the air volume changing, would impact heat transfer as well the increased surface area of the bottom tray.
    Interesting experiment, I would rather have seen more measuring, entire year, and less assumptions. By The Way it is mathematical modeling that has the world ending in 12 years due to over heating......

    3.1.2 Assumptions of the Mathematical Model
    The flow within the enclosed hive structure can be driven by several mechanisms
    including: buoyancy driven flow and natural convection, forced convection by fanning
    bees, and draft-ventilation from external wind. As in our previous investigation, we
    refined the scope of our simulations using the following assumptions:
    1. Air temperature outside the hive is constant
    2. All honeybees in the beehive are contained within the bee cover volumes
    3. Bee thermal response mechanisms are engaged in heating only – cooling mechanisms are not considered
    4. Conjugate problem is not solved - heat transfer between comb cells is neglected
    5. Mass transfer has an effect on natural convection flow - density of air is a
    function of temperature and species concentration
    6. Bee cover modeled as a porous medium
    7. Metabolic heat generation rate modeled as a function of local bee activity and
    temperature
    8. Metabolic heat generation rate is not a function of time
    9. Comb surface temperature is not a function of time
    10. Flow is steady and laminar
    11. No thermal equilibrium between bee phase and air phase in porous medium
    12. Effect of humidity on air flow is not considered
    Detailed descriptions of each assumption and their implications for our study are
    presented in Section 3.2 of our previous report [54].

  21. #60

    Default Re: Latest in Darwinian Beekeeping

    Bottom board in a honeybee nest:

    seeley_morse_1976_generalised_nest.jpg

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