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#1 ·
Anyone else in the TF community heading this direction?

Tom Seeley spells it out pretty clearly in latest BC issue. Wife and I both think we've been having more fun with our bees since going this direction. 2019 will be our third year keeping colonies small and more spread out. A little more work, a little more spread out, but if you're a hobbiest Beek and have the space its been worth it for us...so far.
 
#64 ·
works for me david. i've got several hives right now with an excluder about a single deep and 7 or 8 medium supers above the excluder all full of honey on our main spring flow. will be harvesting soon.

although i'm seeing that the excluder isn't needed anymore after the upper half of the first super becomes a honey dome. in fact it appears that removing the excluder at that point might even boost production by a bit.
 
#65 ·
Anyone else in the TF community heading this direction?

2019 will be our third year keeping colonies small and more spread out.

A little more work, a little more spread out, but if you're a hobbiest Beek and have the space its been worth it for us...so far.
i am not leaning that way at this time db, although i do see some merit in implementing those ideas, especially for those just starting out and/or those in locations more challenged than mine.
that exchange took place only 5 short months ago.

fast forward to today and yes i'll be heading in the spreading them out direction for sure after seeing how fast efb can drift through a congested yard.

in terms of colony size i plan to continue swarm prevention management with the goal of large, strong, productive colonies.
 
#66 ·
While fewer colonies spread across more landscape makes some sense, there is a point where it becomes uneconomic. Brother Adam was in favor of a hive stand that held 2 colonies. This has huge advantages when managing bees as there is another colony nearby if brood is needed or to facilitate other manipulations.
 
#67 ·
i agree with that dar, but for now and until i see if and how my yards recover from the efb outbreak, there won't be any moving of any resources or equipment from one hive to another.

the exception to this is that after this season's honey is harvested from what at this point appear to be hives unaffected by the efb, i plan to remove one frame of brood, one frame of stores, and a couple frame's shake of bees to make up nucs.

it make take another season or two to see if recovery is possible. once i get the hives more widely separated and decrease the # of hives per yard, and if irradiation or some other means of equipment sterilization does not become available, i'll be moving to a strict destruction by fire approach for any that i find efb in.

i've got a least one affected hive that appears to have a terramycin resistant strain of efb. it continues to dwindle and has affected larvae after 2 weeks of treatment. this colony will likely get euthanized next weekend and the frames sent off for analysis.
 
#69 ·
the experts at the bee lab aren't sure exactly how long efb can survive on the frames.

i haven't been too careful going about how frames got mixed up in the extractor and placed afterward but i will going forward.
 
#70 ·
That is a discouraging scenario to consider. Your uncapping tools, and station, everything you transport and stack supers on etc. No more having the bees clean up wet frames.

I have gathered (perhaps because that is what I want to believe) is that the pollen or bee bread is the long lasting reservoir of the bacteria on the combs. Of course most honey frames have the odd pollen pockets.

If the honey super frames prove to be a source of recontamination I will pack it in.
 
#71 ·
If the honey super frames prove to be a source of recontamination I will pack it in.
yes. i've reconciled myself to the fact that i can't keep bees under a laboratory hood or in an autoclave. at some point my colonies are going to have to be able to deal with coming in contact with a little bit of m. plutonius from time to time. if the measures i am undertaking don't result in the majority of colonies surviving my strict burn policy going forward i'll pack it in.

the only wet supers i'll have this year are coming off of super strong colonies somehow apparently unaffected by efb. some of these have 7 or 8 supers full of honey on them. some of those wet supers will be given to the colonies that recovered after the terramycin treatment. (as of now there are only 3 out of 6 that look hopeful in that regard).

otherwise all wet supers will be put back on the stacks they come off of.
 
#75 · (Edited)
I just found the latest book by T. Seeley - published 2019 (relevant to the Darwinian Beekeeping - hence posting).
Apologies if this is a repeat (but the book is really fresh - Publisher: Princeton University Press (May 28, 2019)).

The Lives of Bees: The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild

https://www.amazon.com/Lives-Bees-U...e+in+the+Wild&qid=1560966026&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Free preview is on Google:
https://books.google.com/books?id=R...ousand Years of Beekeeping in Russia.&f=false

Added:
On the free preview on Google - do scroll all way down and look at a short preview of CHAPTER 11: DARWINIAN BEEKEEPING - this is a must-read, potentially.
I feel this particular book is worth buying, actually.
The latest pretty much includes anything worthy from the past and much more.
The author also is much more seasoned now - always a good thing.
 
#78 · (Edited)
I just found the latest book by T. Seeley - published 2019 (relevant to the Darwinian Beekeeping - hence posting).
The Lives of Bees: The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild
GregV:

Thank you for your post- glad to see the book is out now. Dr. Seeley spoke with Mr. Kim Flottum in February on the Beekeeping Today podcast on this subject, and it was well-worth the hour invested: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...-in-the-wild-019/id1402749634?i=1000429186500
 
#80 ·
Another update on my Darwinian adventure.

Last year when I started my move toward Darwinian Beekeeping, I had 13 colonies. Most were in 8 frame medium Langs, 2 in Warres and 4 in top bars. I said I was going to stop buying treated bees even if I end up with only one hive. Well, after euthanizing high mite count hives and the rest not making it through the winter, I ended up with only one hive. So, I'm working with it.
Right now I'm back up to 14 hives. I split my survivor, caught a great swarm that came out of a house, did more splits, caught good colonies in bait hives and got colonies from a friend who does bee removals and did more splits. No, I can't guarentee that these bees are treatment free but the chances are good considering they've been in buildings for more than one season. I also haven't taken any honey from them this year.

I've made a couple compromises to Seeley's layout of evolutionary beekeeping. The biggest one is the placement of the hives. I decided to put all the Langs in a circle in my pasture. Jennifer Berry mentioned to me that the University of Georgia Bee Lab did an experiment and found out that the drifting problem was reduced if the hives were in a circle with the entrances facing out. My circle is about 75' in diameter (with 11 hives) and the hives are about 20' apart. I like working them in this layout so I hope it works.
My top bars and Warres are semi-permenant so they stayed lined up against a tree line and 20'-30' apart.

The other compromise I've made is a top entrance. I have screened inner covers that have an inch and a half opening that can be reduced or closed off. I also give them an inch and a half entrance at the bottom board. The hives are in full Georgia sun so I like that they have the ventilation. Each colony seems to have a different entrance preference.

I'm done splitting for the summer and getting ready to do mite counts. The Langs will get no more than 3 mediums and the top bars have no more than 32 (medium sized) bars. I still have bait hives up if anyone is interested in moving in. We'll see what the fall brings.

Please let me know if anyone else is going the Darwinian route and what your experiences are. Thanks
 
#81 · (Edited)
Another update on my Darwinian adventure.
.............
Please let me know if anyone else is going the Darwinian route and what your experiences are. Thanks
I am and I said so few times.
Since you took the time to describe your location setup, I will describe mine a little.

Currently I have 7 locations, roughly placed along a driving route (some places I drive up to the very hives; the other places this is 300-400 feet walk, carrying the stuff - not much fun, but the sites are worth keeping strategically; I got stuck and yanked by a tractor another day - not too fun).
6 sites are currently active; 1 site is only a trap (I need a swarm captured to get this site going).
I intend to keep each yard population to a maximum of 3-4 units (if more, I will move extra units elsewhere).
If I have all my sites full, that will amount to about 20 units - my max # as anything above is not reasonable for me to manage.

Each one of the sites is simultaneously a trapping location too.
That makes it seven (7) swarm trapping locations.

Imagine a rectangle, 5 miles by 2 miles, the long side oriented North to South - that would be my beekeeping route.
Yes - it is a hassle to get to all the hives at once (have to be strategic with your time and effort).
Yes - it helps to stay out of the bees (some units I don't open 3-4 weeks in a row) - oh well and maybe for the better (set it and forget it).
But even my backyard resource unit I only open a couple times a month.
Granted I am not around daily and weekly even, I have to be proactive and efficient with my visits (and am doing pretty well on that).

I have the "Northern" cluster (4 sites) and the "Sourthern" cluster (3 sites).
The yards within each cluster are close enough to be within a mating range.
But the "northerners" and "southerners" are rather sufficiently separated to consider them not-mating.
Of course, there are other bees are around outside of my control (but no large commercials exist).
Currently my southerners are the dump-grounds/testing-grounds for the captured swarms with the focus on honey crop (for this year).
The northerners are largely a project on pseudo-feral population creation and my TF lines' propagation and cross-mating.
The northerners also overlap with a TF beek that we try to collaborate and maintain a common TF drone flying sector.

Why all of these?
Because this is how initially my bee-yards turned out (original owners who let me in just happened to be that way).
Then later the ideas described above came to mind.
With the ideas in the head, I seeked out and got me more strategic locations so to fit the existing program.

Will see how the season goes!
I feel I again will have more bees that I can manage (and less honey that I may want).
:)
 
#92 ·
I got a swarm call for bees moving into an outside speaker....... those bees definitely didn't calculate their space requirements other than they all fit inside. The speaker is 14" tall and about 4" in depth and width.... Not all the inside space was usable either.... They've surprisingly built up very fast and we're trying to get the queen to move out onto proper frames but she really likes it inside the speaker apparently but the workers are occupying 3-4 deep frames now and using it for stores....
 
#95 ·
OK, here is the continued "evolution" of my Darwinian experiment.

With bait hives, caught swarms from houses, cut-outs, and splits, I'm up to 16 hives. 1 Warre, 4 Top Bars (medium lang frame size) and 11 - 8 frame medium Langs.

The Langs are in a circle (with the entrances facing out) that's about 50' in diameter. The top bars and warre are in a row but 30' apart.
I haven't taken any honey from them this year and I probably won't unless there is a tremendous fall flow. I'm not in a great honey producing area (a lot of pine trees and pasture) but it's my own property and I really don't want out yards.

I am working a 10 frame hive for some friends that have never been treated. They are in a good honey area and the girls crank it out. I just split them but haven't had a chance to do a mite check yet.

All the hives are the size of 32 medium frames/bars and I plan to keep them that way. Some have room to spare and some are full. My understanding is that a big part of Seeley's approach is to keep the size limited and let them swarm. I know that kills most beekeepers but I think the idea is that it's better for them (not us). That's why my plan includes a ton of bait hives.

I just did mite checks (alcohol wash) and everyone is under 3/100. That's the threshold I'm going with. If they climb higher they'll get a soapy water bath.

Once again, I'm going to work with whatever I have coming out of winter.
I'll let you know how it goes.
 
#98 ·
Gray Goose, a big part of the Darwinian concept is to be willing to euthanize any colony with high mite counts.
Last year I had to do that to a couple of colonies by using a big restaurant bussing tub filled with soapy water. I just shake the bees in the water and the soap soon suffocates them. I feel that these hives were dead already . . .they just didn't know it.

Greg V, I don't need to get a lot of honey from my bees which is one of the reasons I wanted to try this method. If you keep the hives small and don't worry about how much honey you take, you don't have to worry about swarm management. Once again, the idea is that it's healthy for the bees to swarm.
 
#99 · (Edited)
Gray Goose, a big part of the Darwinian concept is to be willing to euthanize any colony with high mite counts.
Last year I had to do that to a couple of colonies by using a big restaurant bussing tub filled with soapy water. I just shake the bees in the water and the soap soon suffocates them. I feel that these hives were dead already . . .they just didn't know it.

Greg V, I don't need to get a lot of honey from my bees which is one of the reasons I wanted to try this method. If you keep the hives small and don't worry about how much honey you take, you don't have to worry about swarm management. Once again, the idea is that it's healthy for the bees to swarm.
We understand the idea of swarming (i.e. natural bee colony propagation and the mother colony "cleansing" as a side-affect).
I myself just do it on my own terms via planned (or emergency) splitting.

Speaking of euthanizing the bees, I got this idea - don't kill them.
Use them as a resource to the max via forcing them through the shook swarm.

1)Shake them ALL into a completely empty hive.
2)Give them empty frames and nothing else.
3)Take all the frames and use as you wish
- store/extract honey and pollen
- freeze the brood (or use it some other way - I would use it differently), but still kill the brood as it is the mite propagation factory (this is what you mean to do when euthanizing the worker population anyway)
4)Bees/queen in the completely empty hive will rebuild the best they can and will generate some comb/honey again and maybe will rebuild completely (depending on the timing)
they will go via the shock and forced brood break;
they may or may not die in the end (BUT - only after you got them to produce more resources to your benefit)

I would not kill them.
I would use the potentially doomed workforce IF it is strong enough to produce.
Another reason for this is - you decided to kill them upon artificially determined number (3/100) - well, on this exact TF forum it has been shown how certain bees are doing fine with higher mite counts (this is how they operate).
So - I am not qualified to kill any bees myself based on some theory (be it even from T. Seeley) - it is up to the bees to die (my job is to prevent robbing if possible).
 
#103 ·
Kathleen:

I do apologize for appearing a critic.
I am more into criticizing the so called "qualified content providers" because they supposedly know something and teach others.
Well...
There is much to be said of that - that's what I am doing.

Yes - do share.
We are here to learn from each other so we all (the TF crowd) succeed in the end (maybe even convince the others).

I share all the time; too much even.
:)
 
#104 · (Edited)
Fascinating discussion with equally fascinating insights and opines...Applause to all participants!!

I've not been too active around here despite my deep interest in Seeley's methods, particularly Darwinian beekeeping as a means to keep bees alive and hopefully thriving.

Our summers are short and our winters are long in Northern WI, so our summer days are mostly filled with the many outside farm activities accumulated over the winter, lots of time scratching things off the never ending list B4 snow fly (but days are getting shorter).

I've noticed that some of you contributors to the discussion continue to use 'top' (and bottom) entrances as I have too, while we're experimenting with Seeley's methods and I was wondering if any of those who do still use top entrances have ever experienced a Queens return to the top entrance 'above' the queen excluder, after mating, and (at least twice in my case) resulting in a 'two queen' colony separated only by the still in place excluder, and one or 2 honey supers. This has happened to us twice until we began following Seeley's advise and started blocking the top entrance once we knew the colony had swarmed, forcing the returning queen to only use the bottom, below the excluder.

Both times this occurred we were able to split them before any fighting or robbing took place, lucky heh? In both cases we were pulling honey supers, not even looking for brood, but there it was just the same:)

Anyhow I was just wondering whether anyone else still using both top and bottom entrances and is experimenting with these ideas has had similar experience and how they dealt with it.

Thanks again for continuing this discussion. I'll try to add more as winter closes in. I personally believe keeping bees using these methods will only benefit bees, along with our understanding of them in the long run.
 
#105 ·
I've noticed that some of you contributors to the discussion continue to use 'top' (and bottom) entrances as I have too, while we're experimenting with Seeley's methods and I was wondering if any of those who do still use top entrances have ever experienced a Queens return to the top entrance 'above' the queen excluder, after mating, and (at least twice in my case) resulting in a 'two queen' colony separated only by the still in place excluder, and one or 2 honey supers. This has happened to us twice until we began following Seeley's advise and started blocking the top entrance once we knew the colony had swarmed, forcing the returning queen to only use the bottom, below the excluder.
Drummerboy:

Glad to read your post- and while our summers down here in Kentucky are no doubt longer than yours, we still deal with the problem of more work than hours in the day (or days in the season) so I understand your need to make that proverbial hay while the sun is shining.

While my beekeeping experience is limited (so please discount my observations accordingly), I observed a very similar situation in an overwintered colony with both top and bottom entrances a few weeks ago. Specifically, it is a stack of 8 eight-frame medium boxes and there was brood in the bottom three boxes, two boxes of solid nectar and then the three top boxes had brood in them as well. I decided to leave it alone to see what happens. I should also point out that this stack does not have a queen excluder.

Currently, they are hauling in nectar and pollen frenetically like the early days of spring (we have an oddly-timed flow going on here locally) to an extent that I would not be at all surprised if they swarm in the next few weeks.

The funny thing is that they started using the upper entrance in the Winter and have never really gone back to using the bottom entrance. I see guard bees and fanners at the lower entrance, but very little in terms of returning foragers.

Given that you have now had this occur multiple times, do you conclude that having two entrances is the primary contributor to this issue manifesting itself?
 
#113 ·
One reason I don't use excluders - with the tall frames the queen is supposed to just stay in the first tier and never go up.
Well, that my be true for the folks with strictly bottom-only entrances.

I now know this is NOT true for me.
My queens laid up into the first super above the main brood chamber - not a problem.
Bad or good - what it is.
I think availability of the upper entrances allows the queen to go everywhere she pleases to go (plenty of air - everywhere).
I have no idea how the nests are organized in my hybrids at the moments (been 1-2 months since I ever looked down inside).

My hybrids look like this at the moment (deep brood chamber of the 3 fused boxes with asymmetric entrances; 2 Lang supers stacked on the top for honey).
Apiary Bee Insect Beehive Honeybee
 
#114 ·
One reason I don't use excluders - with the tall frames the queen is supposed to just stay in the first tier and never go up.
Well, that my be true for the folks with strictly bottom-only entrances.

I now know this is NOT true for me.
My queens laid up into the first super above the main brood chamber - not a problem.
Bad or good - what it is.
I think availability of the upper entrances allows the queen to go everywhere she pleases to go (plenty of air - everywhere).
I have no idea how the nests are organized in my hybrids at the moments (been 1-2 months since I ever looked down inside).

My hybrids look like this at the moment (deep brood chamber of the 3 fused boxes with asymmetric entrances; 2 Lang supers stacked on the top for honey).
View attachment 50737
Hi Greg, IMO and from what I have read, the bees place the brood, close to the Air source, (somewhat move toward the air in the spring and away in the fall, with max air needed mid summer) this would make sense with the bottom entrance model. As you add entrances ,you change the dynamics a bit. For an experiment try to use low entrance until the first super is filled, then when adding the second super open the second super air hole so there is a honey barrier. if you keep sequentially, opening a hole higher, you have the chance of the queen moving up to the new air source. Unless it really does not matter. I played with this a bit in the 80's with 2 queen hives they each "need" an air hole to pull it off the best. If I ever do the 2 queen again it would be in a side by side setup, 8 to 10 foot stacks of langs are a pain to work, late season. try playing with a full deep on a ladder.
GG
 
#116 ·
Right; I know about "the queens sticking close to the entrance".
Pretty much no one is doing what I am trying to do - hence different outcomes are always a possibility.
Shorter frame should allow for smaller increments (and more control over where I want the honey stores placed for wintering).
This is how I now dislike the long Lang frames (they are not fitting into the square-tall structure I would like to construct for the wintering - inside the hybrid hive).

Most of the advice given around is always attached to some context.
My own context is different that way.
So when the tall frame keeps swear the queen will only stay on the tall frames - they neglect to mention their own entrance configurations (assuming everyone is doing the same).
 
#117 ·
Time to reawaken the thread? How are the Darwinians doing? I don't mind swarming. It costs honey but if I am too far behind I can't complain of they go.... I do overwinter many smaller colonies, like the equivalent of 8 deep langs, there are always a few on 5 deeps. This is not for Darwinian purposes but just because I think many smaller units works better and gives more potential. Each year I have some 5s that do not require any feeding and just boom when the weather is right. For my upstate NY location we need 5/8 honey, some pollen and about 1.5-2 empty frames for cluster space. That's about 30-50# honey per colony going in to winter. They boom in the spring. The ones I keep ahead of are productive, the ones that swarm are Darwinian! 🙂
Happy beekeeping every one. Spring is here ... Ish...
 
#119 ·
Social benefits require a community: the influence of colony size on behavioral immunity in honey bees

Abstract
Emergent properties of eusocial insect colonies (e.g., nest architecture and defense) highlight benefits of group living. Such emergent properties, however, may only function as a benefit if the group is large enough. We tested the effect of group size on colony-level fever in honey bees. When a colony is infected with Ascosphaera apis, a heat-sensitive brood pathogen, adult bees raise the temperature to kill the pathogen and keep brood disease free. In relatively large colonies, we show a rhythm to honey bee fever: colonies inoculated with A. apis generated a fever in the afternoon and at night but not in the morning. In comparison, relatively small colonies did not generate a fever following inoculation, although they invested more in thermoregulation on a “per bee” basis than control colonies. Thus, in small colonies, honey bee fever could be regarded as a cost of group living: individuals futilely exerted valuable energy towards fighting a pathogen.

Bonoan, R.E., Iglesias Feliciano, P.M., Chang, J. et al. Social benefits require a community: the influence of colony size on behavioral immunity in honey bees. Apidologie (2020). https://doi.org/10.1007/s13592-020-00754-5

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-020-00754-5#Sec8
 
#121 ·
Social benefits require a community: the influence of colony size on behavioral immunity in honey bees
Bernhard:

Thank you for posting this article, and I apologize for the delayed reply as I just now had the opportunity to read it.

Two things from the article stuck out to me:

1. Meunier's definition of social immunity: any collective or individual mechanism that has emerged and/or is maintained at least partly due to the anti-parasite defense it provides to other group members.

Suggesting further support for genetic diversity within a colony contributing to overall survival.

2. Optimal colony size: The author references a 1985 Harbo study that suggests that the optimal colony size is 9,000 bees, which is quite small indeed.
 
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