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19K views 120 replies 24 participants last post by  Litsinger 
#1 ·
Anyone else in the TF community heading this direction?

Tom Seeley spells it out pretty clearly in latest BC issue. Wife and I both think we've been having more fun with our bees since going this direction. 2019 will be our third year keeping colonies small and more spread out. A little more work, a little more spread out, but if you're a hobbiest Beek and have the space its been worth it for us...so far.
 
#2 ·
Anyone else in the TF community heading this direction?
i am not leaning that way at this time db, although i do see some merit in implementing those ideas, especially for those just starting out and/or those in locations more challenged than mine.

all of my hives are in a straight row and separated by about a hive width of space. they are are indentical in appearance except for maybe the number of supers at any given time.

i'm pretty sure i have a lot of drifting. i see it happening at times when a pollen laden forager returns to the wrong hive, wanders in for a moment, and then comes right back out and goes into the to hive next door.

going forward i'm going to pay more attention to the impact of drifting. i may put differing markers on the fronts of the hive for example. i started this year putting robber screens on hives that i see dwv and crawlers coming out of, and i may start putting them on more if not all the hives. i'm also reducing my entrances much more in the late fall and through the winter months.

the degree of acceptance of drifting bees as well as the propensity to rob may be traits that play a role in mite resistance. as far as drifting goes here is an interesting discussion that took place on bee-l some time back:


https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1607&L=BEE-L&D=0&P=88357

(click on 'next' to the right of 'by topic' to follow the discussion).


as far as smaller colonies go i really hope it doesn't come to that. my populations peak at about 2.5 ten frame deeps worth of bees on average, hived in a single deep with 4 - 5 medium supers. a colony like that will yield as much as 150 lbs. of harvestable honey under good conditions.

smaller colonies such as splits, a swarmed colony, or a caught swarm will typically produce half or less as much honey as one of those larger ones will.
 
#4 ·
Something we've been doing for a couple seasons is the staggering of hives, instead of placing them in 'neat' rows. A slight turn 'away' from the closest one (Usually 6-8').

We used to have one yard, located about fifty yards from our front door. It could handle up to a dozen or so hives, plus a few Nuc's, more if we placed them closer together. Now we have two yards (more fencing, another fencer) with only 2-4 hives in each and each yard separated by 75-100 yards. We haven't been doing it this way long enough to realize any benefits so far, but the methodology as described by Tom Seeley seems logical enough that its the direction we're going.

We've always treated or thought of Honey Production, kinda like we think about fishing. I simply enjoy being on the water (or ice, depending on the season), and catching any fish (or harvesting a lot of honey) simply becomes a bonus for us. Good thing we're no longer trying to add income to the reserves anymore.

We keep bees now days because we love keeping them, and after many years we still enjoy the 'relatively' small amount of effort it takes to have them around.
 
#5 ·
We've always treated or thought of Honey Production, kinda like we think about fishing. I simply enjoy being on the water (or ice, depending on the season), and catching any fish (or harvesting a lot of honey) simply becomes a bonus for us. Good thing we're no longer trying to add income to the reserves anymore.

We keep bees now days because we love keeping them, and after many years we still enjoy the 'relatively' small amount of effort it takes to have them around.
very cool db.

this points out the reality of how diverse the universe of beekeeping is in terms of desires, goals, and purposes all of which very much impact management decisions.

there's nothing wrong with doing it for just the enjoyment of it, just like there's nothing wrong with doing it to pay your mortgage and put your kids through college.

as to darwinian beekeeping:

placement of hives is an easy thing to control especially for smaller apiaries. i suggested to litsinger in his 'bungling' thread to scatter the placement of his hives as he grows his apiary.

i think colony size is going to be mostly determined by factors such local climate, forage availability, genetics, and whether or not swarm prevention and/or splitting are practiced.

i don't have access to seeley's bc article, but i'm not surprised at his findings that left up to their own devices bees tend to maintain colony size smaller than managed colonies and prefer keeping some distance from their neighbors. it makes sense and the bees' needs are met perfectly.

the minute we put them in our box, place them closer together, invade and rearrange their space, and take things from them is the minute we add stressors to the bees that their feral cousins don't have to contend with.
 
#9 ·
This is a really neat discussion and I look forward to the continued conversation. I'll readily admit that I don't have enough first-hand experience to contribute anything of value to the discussion, but I am acutely interested in what our experienced forum members have to say on the subject - I guess this is my verbose way of saying "following". 😉
 
#13 ·
Squarepeg, how do we know that bees "prefer" the hollow tree that we assume to be their natural habitat? Wouldn't that tend to make putting swarm traps in a forested area pointless? I think experience has shown us that bees willingly choose some places to set up housekeeping that we find very strange, and not at all tree-like. Maybe the tree is what they take when nothing better presents itself. Regarding #2, I imagine that bee density is relative to the perceived available forage, otherwise why would swarms choose to move into boxes in an established apiary with hundreds of acres of woodlands all around? Not trying to argue, rather, serve another course to chew on.
 
#14 ·
Squarepeg, how do we know that bees "prefer" the hollow tree that we assume to be their natural habitat?
good questions jwp.

i used the term 'choose' but i can see how that might be interpreted as 'prefer'.

when i put swarm traps up 100 yards or so from the hives i keep in the somewhat forested area i live in, about half the swarms that issue from my hives move into the traps and the other half take off for the woods.

i can't be sure if swarms take off because they have found and given preference to a tree hollow, or if it is because of a natural tendency to put some distance between themselves and the parent colony, or if it is for some other unknown reason.

supposedly the scout bees spend some time investigating and locating potential new homes. if there is more than one choice they supposedly compare and end up picking the one that best suits them.

i can see how the decision could go either way depending on what's available at the time.

i believe this process is described in seeley's 'honey bee democracy', but i haven't read it or too much else of seeley's work. i also haven't had the chance to read the bc article(s) in which the 'darwinian approach was discussed. so like michael, i'm not sure exactly what that entails.

from the op, i am assuming it has to do with spacing out hives more, keeping smaller colonies, and perhaps allowing them to swarm.
 
#19 ·
I have some acreage with mixed hardwoods. The red oaks are starting to have hollow hearts. I would not call it old growth. I have two pine stumps that were cut with a crosscut saw. The hearts are about 3 feet in diameter. That was a massive tree. I am not sure that there are any cavities that are suitable for bees.
I do know that the pines grown in my area for pulp production are seeing low prices. This will hopefully cause the high density, single species forest to diversify.
 
#23 ·
Has anyone else besides me actually read the BC article by Seeley? Its in the latest issue, but NOT the first time he's offered info/data on the subject/topic.

It'd be great if we were all at least talking about the same thing instead of assuming, no? :)

GregV, you gotta get out of Dane County Bro, there's still lots of forest in Northern Wisconsin, despite over 100 years of logging and development.

In fact I can still see a few old (3-400 year old) white pines from our back door. They really do stand out this time of year.

The burning that took place in the 20's and 30's after the theft of the White Pine, replenished and then prepared the region for what today is a pretty diverse stand of trees. Do I wish we logged less? Heck Ya! Lots of logging around here takes place during winter months (often in the middle of the night), so whatever may/might be living in or nearby a selected tree/log is very likely doomed, whether it be a colony of Honeybees, a family of squirrels or raccoons, woodpeckers...etc....the list is very long.

But as we all know, profit usually trumps life in this world, no?
 
#24 ·
It'd be great if we were all at least talking about the same thing instead of assuming, no? :)
fair point and i agree. for those of us that don't have access to the article you mention can you give us a cliff note synopsis of what's there, and more specifically how you are interpreting and implementing 'darwinian' beekeeping.

from what you have written so far it sounds like that is taking the form of no treatments, limiting the number of hives per yard, and more spacing/staggering of the hives.

and no, profit doesn't have to trump life, but in the universe of beekeepings profit can certainly occupy a higher rung on the ladder for some compared to others, and that isn't inherently a bad thing.

i noticed in one of your other posts that you are a military veteran. many thanks for your prior service db! :)
 
#26 ·
So Drummerboy’s admonition challenged me to look this up. I went to Bee Culture and found two recent articles which speak to Darwinian Beekeeping:

https://www.beeculture.com/bee-audacious/

Just a few of the management paradigms in this beekeeping philosophy include:

1. Smaller colony sizes closer to that of average wild colonies;
2. More space between apiaries, fewer colonies per apiary, and more distance between colonies within apiaries;
3. Use of local queens, selected and reared for local conditions;
4. Reduced or no swarm control, and capturing swarms to initiate new colonies and replace colonies that have died;
5. No chemical disease or pest management, allowing natural selection to play a stronger role.

Darwinian beekeeping may be best suited to hobbyists or sideline beekeepers, but many elements in this management philosophy would be adaptable for commercial beekeeping as well.


https://www.beeculture.com/bees-in-trees/

Some key managements to “natural” Langstroth hive beekeeping, based on what he finds common to bees living in trees, are:

1. Average in the wild is 2.5 colonies per square mile; space colonies as widely as possible
2. Use small nests; one deep and one shallow; make less honey but colony healthier
3. Use rough cut lumber on inside of hive to increase propolis coating
4. Maintain 10% to 20% drone comb, as found in feral tree nests
5. Keep nest structure and orientation and frame location in hive intact; do not reverse boxes in Spring. Do not disturb colonies in Winter; don’t supplementally feed syrup or pollen
6. Don’t use top entrances and limit bottom opening to two-inch opening.


This article also referred to a recent presentation that Dr. Seeley gave at EAS:

https://www.easternapiculture.org/images/stories/extentions/DarwinianBeekeeping-EAS17.pdf

… bees are superb “beekeepers.”
They have been “beekeeping” for a long time

1. Colonies genetically adapted to their location
2. Colonies live widely spaced in woods
3. Colonies live in small nest cavities (ca. 1 deep hive body) and swarm freely
4. Nest cavity walls are coated with propolis
5. Nest entrance is high off ground (avg. ca. 25 feet)
6. Colonies have diverse pollen sources
7. Colonies are not treated for diseases.
8. Colonies build drone comb freely; produce many drones
 
#28 ·
I have read Seeley's article recent BC issue. Agree pretty much with everything and would love to separate my colonies further apart. The biggest issue is the bear pressure where I am in Central Vermont means an extensive, powerful and strong fence. Can't do that and spread them out. So for now I have 15 colonies all different colors, different directions facing...do what I can.
 
#30 ·
Cool, doing what we can is still doing, right? Certainly this method wouldn't be acceptable for anyone keeping more than ? number of colonies....its definitely a Not-for-Profit form of keeping bees, but isn't the data telling us that most folks keeping bees never or rarely see a monetary profit for their efforts. I'm happy to break even and don't do that very often. We've had a great Honey season perhaps every 3-4 years, and we tend to have a great Bee season that follows suit.

IMHO; if you just want some bees, are resistant to treatments, want to imitate a more natural habitat/conditions, Seeley's methods appear the most promising.
 
#29 ·
Last fall I decided to give Selley's ideas a try.

I think I have the perfect set up to see what happens with Darwinian Beekeeping. I have 170 acres in an agriculture/timber area. I'm a hobbyist that doesn't worry about how much honey I'm getting from my hives. Last fall I had 13 hives and right now I'm down to 8.

One of Seeley's points, that I think is hardest for beekeepers to do, is to euthanize failing hives that have heavy mite loads. I started doing that last fall and ended up drowning 3 colonies in soapy water. It was tough but I want to faithfully try this method. I've never treated my hives but I do monitor.

Another point is the distance between hives. I planned on moving my langstroths at least 30yards apart this spring. Just the other day, Jennifer Berry told me that they did a study at the University of Georgia that showed that you can get the same results (minimum drifting) from putting the hives in a circle with the entrances facing out. I'm going to try that because it's a lot easier on the beekeeping.

I have 8 frame mediums and I plan to keep them to no more than 3 boxes. I also have top bar hives that have 24 bars. I will be putting out a ton of bait hives.

I'm also going to break my cycle of buying bees. I'll work with whatever I have coming out of winter (unless I'm down to zero).

My plan is to keep good records and see how this goes.
 
#33 ·
One of Seeley's points, that I think is hardest for beekeepers to do, is to euthanize failing hives that have heavy mite loads. I started doing that last fall and ended up drowning 3 colonies in soapy water. It was tough but I want to faithfully try this method. I've never treated my hives but I do monitor.
Kathleen:

I enjoyed reading about your efforts. If you don't mind sharing, what are you using as your benchmarks to decide when you need to step-in regarding a failing colony?

Thanks again for the outline-

Russ
 
#32 ·
I haven't been active on Beesource, but I do get the "trending forums" emails occasionally, so I just read this thread. I am a hobby beek myself and have gone the more natural route in my beekeeping efforts. Sometimes successful, other times not so much.
As a Vietnam vet myself ('68-'69), I appreciate DB's last response. Maybe slightly off topic, but still needed to be said, IMHO. When I returned home in '69, I did not experience the hostility that some did, but it was a pretty cold reception from some of my friends. It was a very unpopular war. I'm glad that vets are getting the recognition they deserve now. But as DB pointed out, the actions of some folks are honorable, and some less so. Just like right here stateside. So, thanks for the recognition, and just remember, there are true heroes in any vocation, there are just the regular guys doing their job, and there are a few scoundrels mixed in as well. We need to be careful about putting people on a pedestal just because they are part of any certain large group of individuals.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I'm wondering about the comments about having a small entrance at the bottom and none at the top, with the brood nest at the bottom. The wild hives I saw had various entrances and brood nests were all at the top with honey below and to the sides. I wonder if queen excluders cause issues. Do those of you following the Darwinian ideas find that the queens move the brood nest to the top?

The oldest hive I pulled filled about 8 feet top to bottom and the others were expanding to that size. Around here oak trees often get hollows as they age. Some of them can be hollow in the center, not just a small cavity created by a lost branch. This makes me wonder about the assertion that the hives should be kept small. If you use this method, what is your opinion on the need for a small hive that won't allow them to store large amounts of honey. FWIW, the second largest hive I pulled yielded over 40# of honey and had more in there that I didn't manage to harvest or that was fed back to them. Maybe the issue is standard boxes are wide and the square footage the goal.
 
#37 ·
We still use both a top and a bottom entrance, thinking the bees like having more than one option. During Winter the top one (a small notch on inner cover bottom) is used more often by our bees, it allows moisture/condensation to escape and when its really cold (sub zero), frost at the top entrance ensures that we still have a live colony. :)

As for queen excluders, we remain somewhat confused by Seeley's advise. He tells us to use excluders to confine queen in the bottom (a Deep or 2 mediums) which makes sense, but doesn't offer any advise (that I've seen, so far) on when (or if) to remove the excluder, so we do what we've always done whenever using excluders. Upon Winter wrap up time we just remove them, so the entire colony can move freely up into the honey stores. We'll keep doing that until we learn different.
 
#36 · (Edited)
i'll make a deal with you msl. if i should ever end up with a colony in the late season that is heavily mite infested and has dwindled so small that there is no chance for surviving winter, i'll sell it to you for $398, you can apply the $2 treatment, and resell for $600. an easy $200 for you, right? :)

i've been lucky in that winter has done all the euthanizing for me so far. i did have a colony several years ago that got down to a couple handful of bees by late fall and alcohol wash revealed there were more mites than bees in the hive. i shook them out, but later regretted not placing them in the freezer.

if one buys into the idea that there is a selection process taking place with the mites and the viruses as well as the bees, (and i do), then euthanizing makes good sense as it causes a genetic dead end to the colony collapsing mites and viruses as well as the bees.

in the treatment free context, by the time a colony reaches the point of being a candidate for euthanizing it's way too late to consider a treatment. it is what i will do going forward if i ever find a colony like the one described above.

kathleen, another option is plugging up the entrance and placing the hive in a deep freeze for a few nights. remove the top after the first night.
We used to just 'dump' our dink colonies (dwindlers) on the ground in the Fall, allowing them to die or take up residence wherever they could. An old practice that is no longer advisable or practical for modern beekeeping due to obvious issues with disease, mites etc. We've since learned to just soap them dead so other colonies will have a better chance for survival. It gets easier after doing a few and you'll sleep better knowing that at least 'your' bees aren't spreading varroa around and back.
 
#43 ·
I apologize for the late reply. It’s amazing how work, conferences, short courses and hive maintenance can eat up the winter.

I said last fall when I decided to try Darwinian Beekeeping, even if I was down to one hive I would work off it.

Well, I’m down to one hive. All of these losses were winter dead outs (not euthanized). I lost about two a month. The one that remains seems strong. I can only inspect on the weekends and every weekend has been rainy or cold or both. (BTW, whoever keeps praying for rain needs to knock it off!)

Anyway, I’m going to stick with the plan. I’ve decided to put hives in a circle (entrances facing out) instead of 30yds. apart. I talked to Jennifer Berry at UGA and she mentioned that they did a study and found that the drifting was the same or better when the hives are in a circle.

To answer the question about my mite threshold, I euthanized hives in the fall if they had more than 3/100 and definite signs of decline. They got a soap bath because I don’t have the freezer space.

I haven't decided if I'm going to vary from Seeley and keep my upper entrances or not.

The advantages of this heavy loss (and believe me, I’m looking for them) is that I now have a ton of drawn comb and I was able to do intensive equipment maintenance this winter

I’ll have every bait hive and box I have in service as swarm traps. I’m trying to find some treatment free bees in my area but it’s tough. Most of the keepers here treat and I’m getting my share of eye rolls for trying this.

I’m working under the old adage that it has to get worse before it gets better.

Good, Bad, or Ugly . . . I’ll keep you posted.
 
#45 ·
To answer the question about my mite threshold, I euthanized hives in the fall if they had more than 3/100 and definite signs of decline. They got a soap bath because I don’t have the freezer space.

I haven't decided if I'm going to vary from Seeley and keep my upper entrances or not.
Kathleen:

I appreciated reading your update, and thank you for cluing us in on your threshold.

I too have struggled with the upper entrance question- while I don't have too much to compare it to, it seems that one of my hives in particular has appreciated the upper entrance this winter- and the whole nexus between ventilation, moisture, insulation and overwintering success seems to have a lot of factors associated with it that I do hope to better understand.
 
#52 ·
Ok, today was the day to "circle up". Instead of circling the wagons, I circled the hives. (maybe that's the key to fighting varroa) View attachment 46723
I'm also finally getting a chance to check on my remaining hive. If they have drones and the weather holds, they're getting split.

I put out every bait hive, Langstroth, Top Bar, Warre and Layens hive I have for swarm catching. I'm even going to try some Russian Scions.
I put all my Langs in a circle with the entrances facing out and about 15 feet apart. This is one of the variations I'm making to Seeley's Darwinian Beekeeping layout.

Getting them level in this pasture was a bear but it'll be a lot easier managing them from inside the circle rather than 30yds. apart.
I'm going to keep both the upper and lower entrances open but small. I've had hives before that seem to choose which one they prefer. I had only one hive propolise the upper entrance in the winter but then they opened it back up again in the spring. Also, because they'll now be in full sun, I'm hoping the extra ventilation helps.

BTW, thank you squarepeg for the queen idea. I'll check it out.

Keep Beeing
 
#55 ·
This is one topic I 100% agree with you guys on. Bringing southern bees to the UP to "save the northern bees" is really doing just the opposite. DCAs flooded with southern Italian drones can serve no purpose other than to weaken the locally adapted genetics. And this group is scamming people into believing they are helping. Really it just looks like they are selling honey for $35 per pound.
 
#56 ·
"Really it just looks like they are selling honey for $35 per pound."

People in general want to "help" if they perceive an issue. The 300 defrays the hive cost, the package cost was a given cost any way. First 10 pounds is the rent. spread them around the country side. Interesting business plan.

yes I had a sad day yesterday. this area just south of the Soo was an area last year I put out a frame of honey and not a single honey bee touched it for a month. I "was" going to try to breed queens there this year. And also a friend of a friend told me that one of my neighbors is ordering packages this year because he wants to save the bees, so now my main yard could be compromised With the DCA populated with drones from was south. Don't get me wrong I think the bees in the south are GREAT for the south. When we drag them across 4 or 5 state lines, we really need to understand that we are affecting local DCAs and maybe bringing in pests with the packages. I am really OK with the adopt concept if it were locally issued swarms, catch and house. Not sure ordering Packages is even in the same category.
 
#57 ·
Just a hint...

Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees.
Journal of Theoretical Biology 295 (2012) 168–193
http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/JTB-PAPER-Sudarsanetal-2011.pdf

And a followup: http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/ThompsonCody_MSc2011_edited.pdf

"The presence of the bottom cavity beneath the level of the hive inlet greatly reduces the volume of air which directly penetrates the hive body. Instead, air exchange occurs slowly as stale hive air is drawn off by a venturi effect and fresh air is slowly drawn up to replace it. Conceivably, this could offer an advantage to honeybees who are constantly under pressure to maintain the temperature of their brood. Having a bottom cavity minimizes direct exposure of the brood to influent air, effectively buffering the internal hive environment from the external world. An implicit advantage afforded by a slow exchange between the hive and ambient environments is the increased control honeybees may exert over that exchange."
 
#58 ·
Interesting article Bernhard, I hate to rain on the parade But....
The list of 12 assumptions, and the fact that most of the data was from "Mathematical modeling" has me kind of wondering what the real world would look like. With Bees when I make assumptions, I can easily go down the wrong trail. I have 2 hives with screened bottom boards on 2x6 on edge, with a 5 inch drawer under, next to 2 hives with the standard wood bottom boards, hived the same day in the same Apiary. All 4 had 4 supers of honey.
the last assumption, the effect of humidity on air flow is not considered, Is a big one when you model with Fluid equations. Once main flow starts for me I place a 3/8 stick on both long sides , under the top cover to greatly increase air flow. By then I am 4 or so boxes High, these tests were all on 1 deep with/or with out 1 super, so the heat rising in the collume effect also changes with each super you add. Taller stack has different heat flow than a short stack.
Sure with a short stack and a rounded bottom you would measure or infer more venturi effect, but most of us are cooling in taller stacks with collume effect as well.
Also not mentioned is if you start with a higher air volume in the hive it would take more time to heat it up, So the effect is the air volume changing, would impact heat transfer as well the increased surface area of the bottom tray.
Interesting experiment, I would rather have seen more measuring, entire year, and less assumptions. By The Way it is mathematical modeling that has the world ending in 12 years due to over heating......

3.1.2 Assumptions of the Mathematical Model
The flow within the enclosed hive structure can be driven by several mechanisms
including: buoyancy driven flow and natural convection, forced convection by fanning
bees, and draft-ventilation from external wind. As in our previous investigation, we
refined the scope of our simulations using the following assumptions:
1. Air temperature outside the hive is constant
2. All honeybees in the beehive are contained within the bee cover volumes
3. Bee thermal response mechanisms are engaged in heating only – cooling mechanisms are not considered
4. Conjugate problem is not solved - heat transfer between comb cells is neglected
5. Mass transfer has an effect on natural convection flow - density of air is a
function of temperature and species concentration
6. Bee cover modeled as a porous medium
7. Metabolic heat generation rate modeled as a function of local bee activity and
temperature
8. Metabolic heat generation rate is not a function of time
9. Comb surface temperature is not a function of time
10. Flow is steady and laminar
11. No thermal equilibrium between bee phase and air phase in porous medium
12. Effect of humidity on air flow is not considered
Detailed descriptions of each assumption and their implications for our study are
presented in Section 3.2 of our previous report [54].
 
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