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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post

    It appears to be a common phenomenon with message boards. Those that have the knowledge, donít need the board and are not going to tolerate being abused for sharing their knowledge for very long.
    very true, well said

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Thanks for the kind words by some of the contributors here. I later suffered from posters remorse for my contributions to the thread in question but I guess the original thread title (it was later amended) and tone from such an experienced beekeeper struck me as a bit odd and overstated. I hope tenbears is well.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I hope tenbears is well.
    Jim If your query is sincere He is doing well. I see him half a dozen times a year. In spite of the fact he chooses not to participate here he still lectures, mentors and keeps around 100 hives.
    I have read this thread and all associated links. A hand full of negative posts, we need to remember that Tenbears has posted over 5000 post. He has guided countless beginners and offered a great deal of valuable information. Maybe we should start a thread asking just who he has befriended, who he has sent queens free, Who he has sent BT to in a medicine bottle in order to save them from buying a package that would expire before they could use it, Who he has sent a bottle of his mead to and not even asked for shipping, who he has driven hundreds of miles to help simply because he loves bees. He has done all of that for me long before I ever met him. I know he has for others here too.
    Yes, at times he can be short and sometimes he may drive a point home in an unusual manner. However he offers a lot to the beekeeping community. If you knew him you would probably really like him. I am not saying it is your fault he left. but I can understand how he felt. I have gained more beekeeping knowledge from you and he than all others here combined. It is a shame that it was you that delivered the Coup De Gr‚ce Maybe someday you and he will come to a meeting of the minds.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Agreed
    The real question is "why is he gone"
    We have had a very large brain drain of late with experienced and valued voices trailing off

    Lauri is showing up like once a mouth, made 34 posts in the last year despite a 1.13 post per day over all average
    DRRC is gone
    Ian made 28 post in the last year despite a 1.58 post per day average
    JSL hasn't logged in sense Sept
    etc
    The list goes on and on, mean while we have the stroking of new members that haven't overwintered a hive yet, writing "overwintering manifestos" and claiming all sorts of things, that their youtube posts refutes.. ie https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ping-Manifesto

    psm1212 put it well
    Those that have the knowledge, don’t need the board and are not going to tolerate being abused for sharing their knowledge for very long.
    We would do well if the mid range 4+ year beekeeper would speak up, and not leave chaff un challenged to infect the next gen
    If it falls to the few, they fast become bitter and short.
    A hole I am trying to dig my self out of,. And yes, I did become an A hole I am looking for a way back... or out like many before me (NOT that I am putting my self in the same class as the people I mentioned)

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    psm1212 put it well
    Those that have the knowledge, don’t need the board and are not going to tolerate being abused for sharing their knowledge for very long.
    same thing is happening at bee club meetings, must be the changing of the guard
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    delete
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by I'llbeedan View Post
    Jim If your query is sincere He is doing well. I see him half a dozen times a year. In spite of the fact he chooses not to participate here he still lectures, mentors and keeps around 100 hives.
    I have read this thread and all associated links. A hand full of negative posts, we need to remember that Tenbears has posted over 5000 post. He has guided countless beginners and offered a great deal of valuable information. Maybe we should start a thread asking just who he has befriended, who he has sent queens free, Who he has sent BT to in a medicine bottle in order to save them from buying a package that would expire before they could use it, Who he has sent a bottle of his mead to and not even asked for shipping, who he has driven hundreds of miles to help simply because he loves bees. He has done all of that for me long before I ever met him. I know he has for others here too.
    Yes, at times he can be short and sometimes he may drive a point home in an unusual manner. However he offers a lot to the beekeeping community. If you knew him you would probably really like him. I am not saying it is your fault he left. but I can understand how he felt. I have gained more beekeeping knowledge from you and he than all others here combined. It is a shame that it was you that delivered the Coup De Gr‚ce Maybe someday you and he will come to a meeting of the minds.
    Of course I was sincere. Before you suggest that he left solely because of a couple of posts of mine it should be noted that he hadn't been seen on here for quite sometime before the post in question.
    As a person, myself, who has spent the better part of the past 50 years with my head in a beehive (I like to say I've never had a real job), I appreciate how difficult it can be to post here on Beesource and be questioned and challenged by the inexperienced among us. So, yes, I get the frustration that Tenbears has experienced. I've chosen to deal with my frustration not with posts like those in question but rather by posting a little more selectively and infrequently. To each his own.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    We would do well if the mid range 4+ year beekeeper would speak up, and not leave chaff un challenged to infect the next gen
    I am one of these beekeepers you speak of. I speak only for myself here. The reason I don't contribute is I'm not confident enough. I am in my 6th winter, yet I still consider myself a beginner or barely an intermediate at best. I believe clyderoad made a point on this very forum about beekeeping activities not being repetitive throughout the season. So although 1 can have 5 years experience, that's only 5 winters, 5 swarm seasons, only 4 or 5 honey harvests. It's not like learning a musical instrument and practicing scales over and over then all of a sudden 2 years at it and you're a riff master.

    I was starting to feel confident until this winter. Im at a 30% loss(and still not out of the woods yet). My biggest loss since year 2. My confidence and spirits have been kicked back a notch.

    I will try to contribute more with the questions and topics that I feel I am qualified to do so, but all I ask of the experienced folks left. Please correct (gently) if you believe poor advice was given.

    And to the veteran beekeepers on this forum. Please stick around. We, the barely intermediates really do need you around. And i know I (and hope others) will try to make it a point to show.appreciation more and hopefully the appreciation will outweigh the negativity of the sophomoric 2nd year bookworms who know it all already.

    Thank you to all on this forum for sharing your experience and wisdom.

    Todd

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by trottet1 View Post
    I am one of these beekeepers you speak of. I speak only for myself here. The reason I don't contribute is I'm not confident enough. I am in my 6th winter, yet I still consider myself a beginner or barely an intermediate at best. I believe clyderoad made a point on this very forum about beekeeping activities not being repetitive throughout the season. So although 1 can have 5 years experience, that's only 5 winters, 5 swarm seasons, only 4 or 5 honey harvests. It's not like learning a musical instrument and practicing scales over and over then all of a sudden 2 years at it and you're a riff master.

    I was starting to feel confident until this winter. Im at a 30% loss(and still not out of the woods yet). My biggest loss since year 2. My confidence and spirits have been kicked back a notch.

    I will try to contribute more with the questions and topics that I feel I am qualified to do so, but all I ask of the experienced folks left. Please correct (gently) if you believe poor advice was given.

    And to the veteran beekeepers on this forum. Please stick around. We, the barely intermediates really do need you around. And i know I (and hope others) will try to make it a point to show.appreciation more and hopefully the appreciation will outweigh the negativity of the sophomoric 2nd year bookworms who know it all already.

    Thank you to all on this forum for sharing your experience and wisdom.

    Todd
    yup me too. 5th year beekeeper now. I have a couple dozen hives and will be expanding more this year but still consider myself to be too inexperienced to be giving out a ton of info to newbies yet.
    Seems every year the list of things i have learned is dwarfed by the list of things i have yet to learn..in beekeeping and in life for that matter.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    "It is a shame that it was you that delivered the Coup De Gr‚ce"....


    I think that statement is extremely presumptive to say the least, and its precisely those types of comments that could make individuals such as Jim Lyon perhaps question why they should even bother trying to share years of professional experience in trying to make this site something worth wanting to participate in.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riskybizz View Post
    "It is a shame that it was you that delivered the Coup De Gr‚ce"....


    I think that statement is extremely presumptive to say the least, and its precisely those types of comments that could make individuals such as Jim Lyon perhaps question why they should even bother trying to share years of professional experience in trying to make this site something worth wanting to participate in.
    Re: Mann lake

    Originally Posted by jim lyon
    I tend to agree and I do a lot of business with them.
    Sorry, but I just have to make an observation here. Iím not going to say ML handled this very well but am I the only one here that finds it a bit odd that someone who ďmaintains a 100 hives and mentors dozens of studentsĒ is paying over $140 for a package and isnít able to diagnose the problem a bit sooner and come up with some brood to remedy the occasional queen issue one gets with packages? I expect that from a newbie not from someone claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience.

    Originally Posted by Tenbears
    Not that it is any of your business, But, we are doing a study with saskatraz bees, and Olivarez Honey bee is a large supplier, They sell through Mann Lake. No I realize we could have ordered Queens direct from Oliverez, and re-queened existing hives However carni queen seem to have trouble indoctrinating to Italian hives, Beside the time involved in breed conversion of the hive would impact the study. NOW, since you have NO idea as to the basis of the study you really should not assume and should expect NOTHING!

    I too do a lot of business with Mann Lake. I buy boxes by the pallet. and frames by the case. And yes over the years I have had a bump in the road here and there with them. That is to be expected. But to call and have the girl that answers the phone be rude, uncooperative and refuse to let you speak to the supervisor, Saying he is not in today. When you request to have him call you back he/she never does. Making you call dozens of times to speak to a supervisor. That is just wrong. Them to offer an unreasonable solution is offensive. And it has been this way ever since they opened their facility in Pennsylvania.




    Originally Posted by enjambres
    Well, that sounds really vexing, and I am sorry you are having trouble with ML.

    But maybe it will make you feel a bit better if I say that I, for one, am glad to see you posting again on BeeSource, Several of us wondered at your absence and were hoping all was well. There even was a thread about it sometime this spring!

    Nancy

    Originally Posted by Tenbears
    People like this are the reason I left beesource. They make it not about the discussion But one's experience, and veracity! Thanks Jim For the reminder. Good of you to offer it early on so I waste no more of my time!

    All this was posted in a thread about Mann lake in June of 2018 I do believe there is not much to presume there since Tenbears has not been back since! Did I say Jim Lions wan totally responsible? NO! in fact I said "I am not saying it is your fault he left" and my statement was not intended to blame I was expressing my regret that one of the beekeepers I admires was the cause of the other beekeeper I admire leaving the site. I never said it was intentional. But you must admit that Jim rather than discuss the facts at hand chose to attack Tenbears integrity.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by I'llbeedan View Post
    .But you must admit that Jim rather than discuss the facts at hand chose to attack Tenbears integrity.
    I did? Ok, if that's how you wish to characterize it. Perhaps you could have also pointed out that I apologized in a subsequent post though to say it wasn't accepted would be an understatement. In any case, I hold no ill will nor do I dwell on one brief forum exchange.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    same thing is happening at bee club meetings, must be the changing of the guard
    Just curious, what is being challenged at bee club meetings? Treatment, non treatment, how to treat, are my first 3 guesses.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I did? Ok, if that's how you wish to characterize it. Perhaps you could have also pointed out that I apologized in a subsequent post though to say it wasn't accepted would be an understatement. In any case, I hold no ill will nor do I dwell on one brief forum exchange.
    Jim, I was Not Blaming you I was just pointing out to riskybiz that my statement was by no means presumptive. I am not trying to argue with you nor am I passing judgment. I appreciate your contribution. Just pointing out facts. Yes I consider tenbears a friend. But before our interaction on beesource I did not know him. Same as I did not know you until bee source and I would proclaim to anyone that you are an internet friend. Yes, you apologized after a statement of self vindication which tends to negate an apology. Sort of like someone saying sorry BUT. Now I will apologize for opening a can of worms Sorry!

  16. #35
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    Thumbs Up Re: Tenbears?

    I've read this thread twice, parts of it three times. Continued discussion will add no value, it's all been said. I think the horse is dead & we need a group hug.

    If I were a moderator here, I'd say, "Lets move on..."
    ...We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are...

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    You're very welcome. Ironically I'm building 4 of them now. In all honesty I couldn't figure out a reasonable way to market it. Knowing that and how much I've learned from other beekeepers I decided to contribute my idea. I'd be lying if I told you I didn't feel a tinge of happiness when I see folks using them all over the place in photos and videos.
    there are 40 of them freshly made in my garage waiting for spring right now mate! Cheers!

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gino45 View Post
    Just curious, what is being challenged at bee club meetings? Treatment, non treatment, how to treat, are my first 3 guesses.
    Well I'll give you an example, during the meeting one of the good long time beeks was being asked multiple questions, each time b/4 he could answer the first year beek sitting next to him would start talking away sometimes giving ok answers, some times not. after a while the one guy that was getting asked questions got this look on his face, never seen him get upset b/4.
    guarantee you you won't see him for a while. The treatment non treatment doesn't usually get to be a problem, I'm the treatment guy, a friend is the non treatment guy and when the question comes up we just play off of each other, it's up to the people to decide which way to go, the only thing I always bring up, if they have hives near mine, that if they aren't going to treat to test, so far after testing a few times, they have all started treating.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  19. #38

    Default Re: Tenbears?

    In line with the direction of this thread yet not directed at anyone in particular, I believe that if you canít take someone challenging your posts, then maybe you have too thin a skin and leaving might be the right choice for you. You shouldnít try to blame it on others.
    I spend a lot less time on Beesource but it isnít because Iíve gotten my feelings hurt.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    This stuff happens, it's the internet, discussions and dissagreements happen, it cannot be otherwise.

    A guy asked a question on our local NZ forum and i wrote what i thought was a pretty comprehensive answer and if the guy just followed it, his hive would have been fine. Another user posts straight after "what a load of rubbish". No further explanation. So i look the guy up, he's a very old guy who has been a hobby beekeeper for a claimed 40 years and is looked up to as the backbone of his local bee club. So i posted back and said "why, what would you do different"? He comes back with what he would do, which was real bad advice, for example, part of it he advocated blocking the hive in 3 days, in the heat of summer. He then had a vociferous group of lady supporters from his club jump in and say they would trust him over me anyday, (not that they knew me), all that type stuff.

    So as tactfully as possible and to prevent the original poster killing his bees, i ran point by point through what he said and why it was a bad idea and what should be done instead. The guy never posted again. I then get attacked by the female fan club for driving him away. I felt some remorse but looked through his previous posts and found he had a history of being a self appointed authority figure but dishing out really bad advice.

    Clearly he enjoyed his status, so much so that he would call another post rubbish, and feel no need to even explain that. But he knew my reply to him made sense, and of course that dented his authority or his pride. He couldn't deal with that, but i had no idea he was so fragile or bound up in his own unchallegable importance that he would quit the forum over it.

    I also felt leaving was a kind of passive aggressive move against me. Cos far as his bunch of groupies were concerned i was scum and they had no problem saying so.

    So. Drink water, move on.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Tenbears?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    This stuff happens, it's the internet, discussions and dissagreements happen, it cannot be otherwise.

    So. Drink water, move on.
    I Do not think Tenbears left over being disagreed with. From what I know of him even at his age he professes to learn from others all the time. And I know there are times when he defends an opinion contrary to his own simply shed light on all aspects of a subject. In his lectures at our local bee club he quite often says he likes the younger well studied guys who are on the ball they discover valuable practices that help the entire beekeeping community. My understanding is that he left not because he was challenged. I believe he can hold his own. He left because he got tired of the discussion going to ones punctuation, or a spelling error, or a typo, rather than discussion of the facts at hand. In one of his posts he wrote "if you can not argue facts then your answer is to try to discredit your opponent over grammar! Really?" You talk passive aggressive? "claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience." The use of the word claiming in this context is used for no other reason that to challenge ones Veracity. Add to that some members who are disagreed with seem to follow those around who have disagreed with them for no other reason than to be argumentative. I sympathize with Jim Lions, Tenbears, Mike Palmer, you and all the other men and women who have for so long come here and offered so much information to so many with no compensation. Some do so for themselves and they get as much out of the participation as they give others. Some do so for the sake of others and the bees. Thus they get tired of being insulted for their efforts. Leaving is not an act of passive aggression. There is nor can there be any aggression in withdrawal passive or otherwise. Fallout often happens in such a situation. That fallout quite often really has nothing to do with right or wrong it has to do with emotions.

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