5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way
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  1. #1
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    Default 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Getting a 5-frame nuc this spring to use in a Warre hive. Idea is to do a transfer down into the Warre, rather than cutting the combs. So I am building a transfer box, with the plan of removing the transfer box as quickly as possible, maybe by mid summer and harvesting the honey.

    Question is: I was thinking of just building a wooden transfer box to hold the EZ-Nuc container. So it would be exactly the right size to fit the nuc. When I get the nuc, I will put it in this box then put it on top of the Warré. Then I could cut out the bottom of the Nuc with a razor, so that the nuc would open exactly into the Warre. Thats it. Other than having plywood coverings on the open parts of the top warré box.

    The idea is to minimize any disturbance to the bees. The nuc frames would not be removed, they would just be able to build down into the Warré.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    I don't know what sort of wooden-ware you have access to - but I found the easiest method of transferring bees from standard frames onto Warre Top Bars (or frames) was to tie-wrap the Warre Top Bar underneath a plain Top Bar dimensioned to fit a standard box, then chequer-board (IOIOIO etc) those bars between the regular frames until drawn-out and occupied, then progressively move the unwanted frames to the outside of the array to clear them of brood, before finally xfering the Warre combs across to their intended home. If what's left of the standard box is then placed near the Warre hive entrance, the remaining bees will join their sisters in due course.

    I've found out the hard way that getting bees to move up or down into another box only works as and when (and if) the bees themselves want to do this.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  4. #3
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I don't know what sort of wooden-ware you have access to - but I found the easiest method of transferring bees from standard frames onto Warre Top Bars (or frames) was to tie-wrap the Warre Top Bar underneath a plain Top Bar dimensioned to fit a standard box, then chequer-board (IOIOIO etc) those bars between the regular frames until drawn-out and occupied, then progressively move the unwanted frames to the outside of the array to clear them of brood, before finally xfering the Warre combs across to their intended home. If what's left of the standard box is then placed near the Warre hive entrance, the remaining bees will join their sisters in due course.

    I've found out the hard way that getting bees to move up or down into another box only works as and when (and if) the bees themselves want to do this.
    LJ
    I will consider this. Any idea how long it might take to complete the transfer to the Warré?

  5. #4
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Getting a 5-frame nuc this spring to use in a Warre hive. Idea is to do a transfer down into the Warre, rather than cutting the combs. So I am building a transfer box, with the plan of removing the transfer box as quickly as possible, maybe by mid summer and harvesting the honey.

    Question is: I was thinking of just building a wooden transfer box to hold the EZ-Nuc container. So it would be exactly the right size to fit the nuc. When I get the nuc, I will put it in this box then put it on top of the Warré. Then I could cut out the bottom of the Nuc with a razor, so that the nuc would open exactly into the Warre. Thats it. Other than having plywood coverings on the open parts of the top warré box.

    The idea is to minimize any disturbance to the bees. The nuc frames would not be removed, they would just be able to build down into the Warré.
    I assume the transfer of 5-frame deep Lang nuc into some Warre format where the 9 1/8 inch tall Lang frame will fit inside.
    This is really a trivial transfer.

    I would not even bother with building anything custom.
    I would not bother with cutting combs either.
    No need to hope bees will somehow move the way you want them either (no guaranty of that).

    You got your Warre boxes - use them as-is immediately and in place.
    Maybe need to double-stuck the boxes to accommodate Lang frames (as they are long - about 18 inch long).

    Method one - best to have a helper, but not necessary.
    Produces a long-term setup at once since you attach proper top bars and remove original Lang frame ears.

    1)prep appropriate top bars before-hand;
    pre-drill holes;
    set in screws;
    if don't have already - get large garden loppers (those that cut through 1-2 inch branch easily)

    2)mod nuc frames one-by-one and transfer them like so:
    turn the frame 90 degrees;
    using the garden loppers, carefully bite off the protruding ear (the one looking up); this will not shake any bees off - best to have the helper at this stage (but I have done without)
    screw in the prepared top bar (use a proper driver - goes without saying);
    drop the converted frame into your Warre box;
    done;
    next....

    You will have something like this (this is a deep Lang frame repurposed for swarm trap usage; I have several hex vertical traps similar to Warre's in format; using Lang frames in them):
    20180516_150122.jpg

    Method two - no need to have a helper.
    Produces fine short-term setup (or a long-term setup IF you are not a perfectionista).
    Stupidly easy.
    Everything needed is in this short, under 5 min video.
    It is non-English, but just watch; it is all laid out in front of you:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48GrA6vk6tk&t=7s
    Last edited by GregV; 01-08-2019 at 10:03 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I assume the transfer of 5-frame deep Lang nuc into some Warre format where the 9 1/8 inch tall Lang frame will fit inside.
    This is really a trivial transfer.

    I would not even bother with building anything custom.
    I would not bother with cutting combs either.
    No need to hope bees will somehow move the way you want them either (no guaranty of that).

    You got your Warre boxes - use them as-is immediately and in place.
    Maybe need to double-stuck the boxes to accommodate Lang frames (as they are long - about 18 inch long).

    Method one - best to have a helper, but not necessary.
    Produces a long-term setup at once since you attach proper top bars and remove original Lang frame ears.

    1)prep appropriate top bars before-hand;
    pre-drill holes;
    set in screws;
    if don't have already - get large garden loppers (those that cut through 1-2 inch branch easily)

    2)mod nuc frames one-by-one and transfer them like so:
    turn the frame 90 degrees;
    using the garden loppers, carefully bite off the protruding ear (the one looking up); this will not shake any bees off - best to have the helper at this stage (but I have done without)
    screw in the prepared top bar (use a proper driver - goes without saying);
    drop the converted frame into your Warre box;
    done;
    next....

    You will have something like this (this is a deep Lang frame repurposed for swarm trap usage):
    20180516_150122.jpg

    Method two - no need to have a helper.
    Produces fine short-term setup (or a long-term setup IF you are not a perfectionista).
    Stupidly easy.
    Everything needed is in this short, under 5 min video.
    It is non-English, but just watch; it is all laid out in front of you:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48GrA6vk6tk&t=7s
    I don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand.

    My Warré bars are 11 ½ in (12 ½ with rebate) where the ones from the nuc will be 19 ½. So there is a 7 inch difference some of which will be filled with comb. Are you saying to lop off each nuc bar so it will fit and cut and toss the comb that is lost?

  7. #6
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Oh wait, I didn't see the picture. Hm, that is interesting. Do you think the bees mind being turned 90 degrees?

  8. #7
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Oh wait, I didn't see the picture. Hm, that is interesting. Do you think the bees mind being turned 90 degrees?
    They don't care enough to worry about it.
    Just do it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    I don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand.

    My Warré bars are 11 ½ in (12 ½ with rebate) where the ones from the nuc will be 19 ½. So there is a 7 inch difference some of which will be filled with comb. Are you saying to lop off each nuc bar so it will fit and cut and toss the comb that is lost?
    Again - turn the frame 90 degrees within the same plane.
    Done.
    Absolutely nothing is lost.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    You basically implement this idea (just in the Warre situation, not a long hive situation):
    http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-bui...h-layens.shtml
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    As a 49 year Langstroth framed hive user and a 10 year Warre user my sage advice is.....throw away the Warre hive and use that nuc in a Langstroth hive. Warres are even harder to manage than a topbar hive. Are you using a horse and buggy for transportation? are you using Western Union for telegraph communication? No and no. You are probably using a late model car or truck and a computer and smartphone. So why are you using thousands of year old beehive technology? Warres are something promoted by inexperienced beekeepers who started since the recent beekeeping fad started in 2006 who have no framed hive experience. Don't get sucked in.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    ..throw away the Warre hive and use that nuc in a Langstroth hive.....
    Disagree.
    It is just one needs to ditch the established ideas of what Warre is.
    Forget the conventional Warre - it is not set in stone (unless you are a principled purist).
    Modern "Warre" is just a vertical, ergonomic, small-format hive that can serve both a hobbyist and a commercial guy well.
    That what it is.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    As a 49 year Langstroth framed hive user and a 10 year Warre user my sage advice is.....throw away the Warre hive and use that nuc in a Langstroth hive. Warres are even harder to manage than a topbar hive. Are you using a horse and buggy for transportation? are you using Western Union for telegraph communication? No and no. You are probably using a late model car or truck and a computer and smartphone. So why are you using thousands of year old beehive technology? Warres are something promoted by inexperienced beekeepers who started since the recent beekeeping fad started in 2006 who have no framed hive experience. Don't get sucked in.
    I appreciate, and respect your depth of knowledge. Curious how it went when you tried the Warre, the difference in yields, problems with mites, etc.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Disagree.
    It is just one needs to ditch the established ideas of what Warre is.
    Forget the conventional Warre - it is not set in stone (unless you are a principled purist).
    Modern "Warre" is just a vertical, ergonomic, small-format hive that can serve both a hobbyist and a commercial guy well.
    That what it is.
    Oh, and you are right, I have the latest iPhone and a VW e-Golf. I am always open to new ways of doing things.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Here is one modern implementation of "Warre".
    He is a well known commercial keeper and the hive designer (again - commercial).
    The PDF is translatable into English for those curious:
    https://stasovapasika.com/books/pche...v-ule-udav.pdf
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You basically implement this idea (just in the Warre situation, not a long hive situation):
    http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-bui...h-layens.shtml
    Thanks, seems like a great way to go. I am going to try this. The nuc frames may still be longer then the depth of two of my warré boxes. But I can always make a couple inch height extension the bottom box. Cool, vertical bees!

  17. #16
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Here is one modern implementation of "Warre".
    He is a well known commercial keeper and the hive designer (again - commercial).
    The PDF is translatable into English for those curious:
    https://stasovapasika.com/books/pche...v-ule-udav.pdf
    Where did you find the translation? Google translate gives me a too large to translate error

  18. #17
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Thanks, seems like a great way to go. I am going to try this. The nuc frames may still be longer then the depth of two of my warré boxes. But I can always make a couple inch height extension the bottom box. Cool, vertical bees!
    You can also clip off the low-facing Lang frame ears.
    All you have to accommodate - ~18 inch + top bar thickness.

    Warre box height ~ 1/2 of Lang frame length is a very good design.
    As well, box height ~ 1/3 of Lang frame is also good.

    This is because such designs allow you to intake Lang frames with very minor modifications.
    Important details as about everyone has nucs for sale in Lang format.
    Last edited by GregV; 01-08-2019 at 12:48 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Where did you find the translation? Google translate gives me a too large to translate error
    Just do it in fragments.
    OR.... highlight text/copy/paste into a text editor/save as a text file/batch translate... something along this line.

    There are ways to get it done if want.

    FYI: do notice the PDF talks of a design and management based on a mini-frame - important detail (as this may or may not fit your goals and ideas)
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    I appreciate, and respect your depth of knowledge. Curious how it went when you tried the Warre, the difference in yields, problems with mites, etc.
    The frame is a brilliant invention. When I go to harvest my warres brood is sometimes up and down thru all the boxes. The combs are attached to the sides and topbar down below. It is a sticky bee killing mess in the middle of robbing season. A modified Warre with frames is better, but why go with something uncompatible with the other millions of beekeepers in the country. Already without even starting yet you have crashed into the WALL of this huge problem, incompatibly. Warres are smaller, more swarm prone,expensive if you are buying them, AND DON'T HAVE FRAMES!!!! The octagon Warre is the stupidest of all. The only advantage with a Warre is that they are cute. Well my first wife was cute also but I was lucky to get out of that marriage. An adapter board as shown in this picture might be your solution.

    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    The frame is a brilliant invention........ AND DON'T HAVE FRAMES!!!! ......
    So again, why follow the frame-less principle? Who said one must not use frames?
    You have my permission to use frames!
    Haha...

    If do use frames, why use incompatible frames with the rest of the community?
    Go ahead and be compatible.
    I give permission to be compatible with Langs.

    Why not use excluder? Well, heck, use them.

    Hex/octa hives make nice traps, they setup directly on the ground, bees like them (my hex logs are my best traps, unsure why but they perform)
    Unless built stupidly they take Lang frames very well by this same method (90-degree turn) so to make swarm re-hiving easy, like so:
    20180729_192900.jpg
    20180728_141223.jpg

    It is plain silly to follow some 150-year old Waree dogma as if nothing changed since then.
    As well is counter-productive to keep kicking the 150-year old dogma (again as if things stay static).
    Last edited by GregV; 01-08-2019 at 01:41 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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