5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    So again, why follow the frame-less principle? Who said one must not use frames?
    You have my permission to use frames!
    Haha...

    If do use frames, why use incompatible frames with the rest of the community?
    Go ahead and be compatible.
    I give permission to be compatible with Langs.

    Why not use excluder? Well, heck, use them.

    Hex/octa hives make nice traps, they setup directly on the ground, bees like them (my hex logs are my best traps, unsure why but they perform)
    Unless built stupidly they take Lang frames very well by this same method (90-degree turn) so to make swarm re-hiving easy, like so:
    Attachment 45421
    Attachment 45425

    It is plain silly to follow some 150-year old Waree dogma as if nothing changed since then.
    As well is counter-productive to keep kicking the 150-year old dogma (again as if things stay static).
    Confused. What has changed since Warré? Are you saying when Warré was around his hives might have been better, but today things are different? Confused.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    It is plain silly to follow some 150-year old Waree dogma as if nothing changed since then.
    As well is counter-productive to keep kicking the 150-year old dogma (again as if things stay static).
    Where did 150 come from ? Emile Warre wrote the 12th Edition (the most commonly available edition) of 'Beekeeping for All' in 1948 - which makes his 'frameless dogma' a tad over 70 years. (He favoured the use of frames in earlier editions)

    A thought. The Warre 'formula' revolves around 8 combs more-or-less the same depth as a deep (but shorter at 300mm, sure) - so why not simply run a stack of 8-frame deeps to approximate a stack of Warre boxes ?

    I'm currently running 2 colonies in exactly this way, but using shorter British National deep frames rather than Langs, and with open bottom mesh ventilation rather than Warre's quilt idea which, like Roger Delon - I've never liked the idea of (and neither do the bees, who'll tear it up unless thwarted somehow from doing so).
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  4. #23
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Confused. What has changed since Warré?
    Three major changes: mass-produced wooden-ware, agricultural practices, and Varroa.

    Warre's main selling-point (he was selling, after all) was to enable French peasants to make a simple, largely unattended back-garden beehive for as little money as possible. But - just as with the Kenyan Top Bar Hive which was solely intended for poverty-stricken Third-World countries where tools and materials were at a premium - both of these hive designs have been adopted by a beekeeping sub-culture, often-times claiming them to have some kind of 'Natural' pedigree which in turn has made them attractive to those who are entering beekeeping for ideological reasons.

    Changes in agricultural practices since WWII have made the rural countryside (the residents of which were Warre's main target) far less suitable for beekeeping than, say, the urban environment.

    The advent of Varroa (and perhaps SHB too, depending on your locality), were unknown in Warre's day. I'm not saying that this, or changes within the countryside have any bearing on the suitability or otherwise of Warre Hives - but you asked about changes since Warre's day ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #24
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    There is another factor which is very curious in the saga of the Warre Beehive. In the 12th Edition of his book 'Beekeeping for All', Emile Warre describes how he undertook a large-scale field-comparison of numerous other beehive types before deciding upon those features which were desirable within his own 'revolutionary' beehive design.

    At first sight this looks to be a most impressive piece of work, the outcome of which produced an expandable vertical hive-type, which was in marked contrast to the large capacity fixed-volume hive designs which had been field-tested - that is - until one considers which hive-types were NOT included, of which there were two.
    The first was the British National (an expandable vertical beehive design (essentially a Langstroth variant) from just across the water from Warre's apiaries in Northern France) - but to be fair, it WAS a fairly 'new kid on the block'. But not so the American Root-Langstroth design which, even in Warre's day had already achieved a largely pre-eminent status amongst beehive designs world-wide.

    So why didn't Warre include the very popular Root-Langstroth design amongst his Voirnots, Dadant-Blatts, Layens and similar chest-hive designs for comparison ?

    What - and risk losing his USP (Unique Selling Point) by doing so ...

    Warre may have been a priest, but he was also a salesman.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Confused. What has changed since Warré? Are you saying when Warré was around his hives might have been better, but today things are different? Confused.
    LJ already did a plenty good write-up.
    Of course, things are different.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Where did 150 come from ......which makes his 'frameless dogma' a tad over 70 years. (He favoured the use of frames in earlier editions)

    A thought. The Warre 'formula' revolves around 8 combs more-or-less the same depth as a deep (but shorter at 300mm, sure) - so why not simply run a stack of 8-frame deeps to approximate a stack of Warre boxes ? ...LJ
    150.... 70...
    In short - old enough to review.

    The "stack of Warre boxes" can be implemented in many ways.
    I do it in long hives just as well (frame 300mm x 435mm plus end boards - here you go - a base Warre stack right there ).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Three major changes: mass-produced wooden-ware, agricultural practices, and Varroa.

    Warre's main selling-point (he was selling, after all) was to enable French peasants to make a simple, largely unattended back-garden beehive for as little money as possible. But - just as with the Kenyan Top Bar Hive which was solely intended for poverty-stricken Third-World countries where tools and materials were at a premium - both of these hive designs have been adopted by a beekeeping sub-culture, often-times claiming them to have some kind of 'Natural' pedigree which in turn has made them attractive to those who are entering beekeeping for ideological reasons.

    Changes in agricultural practices since WWII have made the rural countryside (the residents of which were Warre's main target) far less suitable for beekeeping than, say, the urban environment.

    The advent of Varroa (and perhaps SHB too, depending on your locality), were unknown in Warre's day. I'm not saying that this, or changes within the countryside have any bearing on the suitability or otherwise of Warre Hives - but you asked about changes since Warre's day ...
    LJ
    Perhaps I am much like that French peasant. The ruralish countryside where I live hasn't changed much in 100 years, I am making my own hives so mass-production isn't relevant, and using Russian bees, so hopefully Varroa will not be a problem. A couple of hives, Warré should be fine for me and the bees.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Perhaps I am much like that French peasant. The ruralish countryside where I live hasn't changed much in 100 years, I am making my own hives so mass-production isn't relevant, and using Russian bees, so hopefully Varroa will not be a problem. A couple of hives, Warré should be fine for me and the bees.
    I am a peasant too, Eastern Euro rather...
    But.

    You see, right there where things will break down for you.
    Now days you can not just sit on two hives (be it Warre) and hope things are set.
    Your bees will die rather sooner then later (even if you treat will probably die).

    So, welcome to 21st century beekeeping.
    Have to split; have to run resource hives; have to run nucs; have to treat (if you choose to treat) or somehow non-treat; on and on.
    Have to manage your bees in fluid ways and need to have equipment to support the fluidity.
    Classic Warre talk of a "couple of hives" will not work too well.
    That changed.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Now days you can not just sit on two hives (be it Warre) and hope things are set.
    Your bees will die rather sooner then later (even if you treat will probably die).

    So, welcome to 21st century beekeeping.
    Have to split; have to run resource hives; have to run nucs; [...]
    Just want to add ... that's exactly right in this neck of the woods - it's only by making nucs that I'm still up and running. Only last season I had two huge colonies in particular which I'd judged to be pretty-much bullet-proof by virtue of size and how dynamic they always seemed to be - foragers first out in the morning, last back at night etc - but which failed to supersede on their own successfully. And this is becoming an all too familiar story. Both hives were discovered to have impressive stores of both honey and pollen ... but no queen. Without replacement queens from nucs made earlier in the season those colonies would inevitably have started that long drawn-out journey to annihilation.

    That's just one example of why the 'leave-alone' two-interventions-a-year Warre philosophy just wouldn't work here, in this apiary. If you find that regime works for you, in your location - that's fantastic, really great - but don't make the mistake of assuming that it will automatically work as in Warre's day by simply housing your bees within a Warre beehive.

    In his book, having conducted numerous comparative experiments, Warre then proceeds to tell the reader NOT to conduct similar experiments of their own (well he would, wouldn't he ?) - but I'd say quite the opposite.
    If you're the kind of person who likes to try alternative methods, then by all means try different beehives: say - a KTBH, a Warre, a large capacity hive such as the Layens or Dadant ... and a Langstroth (or similar), and see which of these alternatives 'floats your boat'. But if you need to start-off with just one design to cut your teeth on - then choose whichever of these is the most common in your area, which will invariably mean a Langstroth - in order to benefit from the potential support of other beekeepers which almost always requires some interchangeability of hardware.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  11. #30
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    What has changed since Warré?
    Honey extractors are now more available and less expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    I am making my own hives
    Pictures of my Warré-LR (DB) 'hybrid' hive:
    https://viesest.imgur.com

    Dimensions:
    inner width = LR inner width
    height of box/frame = 155/145 mm (height of DB honey super)

  12. #31
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    ... interchangeability of hardware... LJ
    +1 right there.

    The interchangeability is a no-brainer now days.
    See the original post....
    Taking in a Lang nuc must a routine, simple thing no matter what you run (be it "Warre" for you; be it a long hive for me).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by viesest View Post
    Honey extractors are now more available and less expensive.


    Pictures of my Warré-LR (DB) 'hybrid' hive:
    https://viesest.imgur.com

    Dimensions:
    inner width = LR inner width
    height of box/frame = 155/145 mm (height of DB honey super)
    Nice!
    Yep, this is the kind of a hybrid I am thinking about.

    Want to combine large and tall brood frames (good for brood/winter) with really small honey frames (good for small, incremental honey harvest).
    I am not pleased with the current Lang medium frames - too commercial in sizing and designed for large, incremental crops by large colonies.
    Small incremental crops produced by smaller colonies are not being addressed - a small honey frame is needed.
    Some people on BS demonstrated good results in honey production just by the nuc-level colonies.
    So, again, I think that "small cluster" beekeeping is totally fine for peasant-type keepers (but requires redundancy and fluidity, not static "two-hive" old school approach).
    Last edited by GregV; 01-09-2019 at 09:24 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    .....the 'leave-alone' two-interventions-a-year Warre philosophy just wouldn't work here, in this apiary. ......LJ
    I got lots of excellent information from https://www.horizontalhive.com/
    Though I was also misled into this idea of implementing "two-interventions-a-year" practice by the site author.
    In my particular locale and with my particular bees, this static "two-interventions" idea is turning into an old-school tale.
    Not working too well.
    It takes many more interventions for me than just two.
    Things changed.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    BTW, found this good demo of commercial apiary running completely on the "alpines" (a modern design of a Warre type).
    As usually with me - a non-Engish video.
    Posted April 2018. They are doing early splits.
    Just watch and ignore the audio - pretty cool.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-1vQnhsLlE
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Thanks, and yes cool. Wondering about those small strips he places about the bars. Any idea?

  17. #36
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by dshanabrook View Post
    Thanks, and yes cool. Wondering about those small strips he places about the bars. Any idea?
    Mite treatment strips (he did say).
    Likely some amitraz version (they are pretty common in that region).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Default

    Hard to call those "Warre type". Wire frame, plastic foundation. Only the box size might get credit.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Hard to call those "Warre type". Wire frame, plastic foundation. Only the box size might get credit.
    Well, as I already proposed, the classic "Warre" (as well as the classic design) should be just forgotten altogether.
    Beeks should just move on on this one.
    Maybe Warre should be just called dead.

    Modern implementations are a plenty and they work better.
    For sure, you can move them around by design (my requirement).
    Who cares how they are called - what is important - they imitate a tree hollow by the box configuration, they are vertical, ergonomic, and have lots of flexibility.
    Maybe they should be just called "tree hollow box" hives - generic and pretty accurate in the idea.

    Here is another cool one.
    Jump to 3:25 and watch a cool way to get rid of the bees from that mini-honey super.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdT5XkNVEZ0
    Last edited by GregV; 01-12-2019 at 11:29 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: 5 frame deep Nuc to Warré the easy? way

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Maybe Warre should be just called dead.
    IMO it shouldn't.

    Essentially:

    LR = productivity by high production
    Warre = productivity by low expenses

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