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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
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    1,200

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    OAV and formic acid treatment products ARE effective but in the case of OAV although a very effective knock down treatment, it kills pretty much only phoretic varroa mites and can be rather hard on brood.
    Evidence ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Arlington Hts, IL
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    As usual with the beekeeping world, multiple opinions!!

    I read a bit on the Mighty mite thermal concept, which heats the hive to at least 106F for 2.5 hours. I am going to investigate that more.

    Only concern is how to jury rig it for a TBH. I may try to make something up myself.
    Last edited by Corto; 01-02-2019 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #23
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Arlington Hts, IL
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    When I first got into bee keeping, I always thought it might be helpful to keep the bees warm in winter, obviously a novice.

    But... it made me look back then at reptile pad heaters and temperature controllers, which I think is a potential poor man's version of the Mighty Mite. The more I think about it though, to get the top of the hive to 106F with only convection from the thermal pad at the bottom would require the two sensor approach, to keep the pad at 106F or thereabouts, and just over time the top sensor would eventually get to 106F, which I assume is why the process takes 2.5 hours.

    Seems a single sensor on the pad itself, at 106F set limit, given enough time and wattage, could get the entire hive to 106F over time, and might not need that second sensor.

    My other thought is somehow using a temperature controlled hot air gun -- 1" hole on the side of the hive with the gun as the source, and somewhere at the other end of the hive an exhaust hole. This would get the heat circulated with air movement and should get all up to temp faster.

    Anyway, just some engineer's thoughts.

    Quick perusing, something like this. If the temp control is as good as it states, could set to 110F and go.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...8-20/100609355
    Last edited by Corto; 01-02-2019 at 04:34 PM.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,247

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    I would not monkey around with a heat gun, or with trying to increase the hive temps faster. If memory serves me correctly, bees die at around 113F. The Mighty Mite heats the hive slowly enough that that critical temperature is never reached.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Turnbow Hollow, Tennessee
    Posts
    426

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I would not monkey around with a heat gun, or with trying to increase the hive temps faster. If memory serves me correctly, bees die at around 113F. The Mighty Mite heats the hive slowly enough that that critical temperature is never reached.
    I'll second that. The bees die at 116 degrees. The temperature elevation is very controlled and slow. The Mighty Mite Killer also employs a temperature sensor at the top of the bottom brood box to provide temperature feedback to the heating element control to prevent excessive temperatures during the warm up to treatment temperature. The gradual temperature increase stimulates the bees inside the hive to fan the air in an attempt to cool the hive which evenly distributes the heat throughout the hive. I seriously doubt you can achieve this with a heat gun and are likely to have very dire results.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Export, Pa.
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    I imagen your yearly losses would be very high ! and your honey production very low ! ---- Is this so ? Are you a 100% hobby Bee keeper ?

  8. #27
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Arlington Hts, IL
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    Agreed on heating too fast, and that the bees will help fan the air around.

    Lou, I have one hive, hobbyist, yes. For the two years they survived, they generated ~16 bars of capped honey.

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Export, Pa.
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corto View Post
    Agreed on heating too fast, and that the bees will help fan the air around.

    Lou, I have one hive, hobbyist, yes. For the two years they survived, they generated ~16 bars of capped honey.
    Thank You - You really should not try treatment free - ruthiesbees may survive but with little honey and large losses of bees every year ! not to mention the spreading of varroa ! she may get away with being treatment free but usully they all will die in a single year /with in a couple of years !
    !

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Isle of Wight, VA
    Posts
    2,748

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou from Export View Post
    Thank You - You really should not try treatment free - ruthiesbees may survive but with little honey and large losses of bees every year ! not to mention the spreading of varroa ! she may get away with being treatment free but usully they all will die in a single year /with in a couple of years !
    !
    You are very incorrect in your assumption of my bees' health. I do not have winter losses of my full size hives and my bees are not loaded with mites. I am inspected each year by the state apiarist so that I can sell nucs and queens. If I wasn't successful in my way of keeping bees, I would not be posting on Beesource encouraging others to give it a try.

    New beekeepers need a better understanding of treatment-free, chemical-free, and the standard commercial way of beekeeping. None of those titles really fit, but many times a new beekeeper just wants to help the bees out and start up a box. The local clubs, at least in my area, are pretty silent on what everyone is doing to manage their mites, and I think this is the biggest downfall of the club meetings. Not that I want to hear about varroa mites every meeting I go to, but the newbees should understand that there is a degree of management involved.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Arlington Hts, IL
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    There are very strong opinions on what works and what doesn't from a lot of people. I have found this out through here and a couple bee Facebook pages. To the point they are a bit over the top on their positions.

    I am just taking it all in. I would still prefer a method that is "chemical" free.

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Delhi, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,488

    Default Re: Hive collapsed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    Corto, very sorry to hear of your hive losses. I have tried treatment free but as you are painfully finding out, our bee genetics are just not there yet, at least not in mass. As you have also learned, food grade, essential oil, and other non-chemical treatments are not effective.

    Chemical and pesticide treatments although effective are not a long term solution and many are falling to mite pesticide/chemical resistance.

    OAV and formic acid treatment products ARE effective but in the case of OAV although a very effective knock down treatment, it kills pretty much only phoretic varroa mites and can be rather hard on brood. Formic acid treatment products like MAQS and Formic Pro are very effective at killing off foundress/reproductive mites as well as phoretic varroa mites but are extremely hard on brood, queens, and general bee population especially when used in the upper range of its temperature application limits.

    Any treatment is a stop gap measure with respect to reaching genetically varroa mite or other pest resistant bees. That having been said, if we do NOT treat, I think we can pretty much all understand that hive losses would be unacceptably high.

    In my opinion, the next best thing to treatment free beekeeping is chemical free beekeeping. It is not the best nor perfect solution but again in my opinion the best solution currently at hand. I am in my 2nd season of treatment with the Mighty Mite Killer and have had excellent results. Last season I treated 84 of my 8 & 10 frame hives and treated 15 of the 47 nucleus colonies I built from the 8 & 10 frame hives. I did not receive the nucleus colony size Might Mite Killers until November and the change to cold temperatures prevented treating the rest. These hives from all inspections and appearances seem to be doing well going into mid Winter and most are still producing brood.

    The remaining hives that did not get treated with the Mighty Mite Killer were treated with Apivar and if I detect going varroa mite levels will be using OAV on a spot treatment basis. Both of these products although chemical based ARE very good treatments especially in my case where cold temperatures will not allow the Mighty Mite Killer to properly reach treatment temperature. I have tried many OAV applicators and have come to be very fond of the ProVap 110 when and where conditions warrant. Larry has an excellent product in the ProVap 110.

    For the time being, I am afraid treatment free in most cases means breeding, dividing, and splitting as many hives as possible to stay ahead of the hive loss curve until the hopeful eventuality of breeding queens that have the genetic traits of varroa mite resistance enough to survive on their own.

    Again ANY treatment is a delaying factor in reaching this goal but setting a reasonable balance between hive losses and chemical free treatments until attaining hives/queens that have developed natural genetic resistance is something I believe most if not nearly all beekeepers are forced in one way or another to adhere to for the time being. This is where I am finding in my experience that the Mighty Mite Killer is a very good fit.

    The Mighty Mite Killer cost more than some other treatments but when you factor in the cost savings of the chemical treatments it replaces, they will pay for themselves in short order depending upon how many hives you are treating. I would recommend that you find out who is the Mighty Mite Killer representative in your area and ask them if they would come treat your hives when temperatures and conditions permit. I am experimenting with various methods of hive insulation that would allow Mighty Mite Killer treatments at much lower temperatures than the current 70 degrees for single deeps and 80 degrees for double deeps. I believe the charge is around $40 depending upon circumstances. The other option is to buy one and try it out. If you don't like it, return it to Lynn Williams and he will give you your money back. If you belong to a local beekeeping club/organization, you might suggest the club/organization purchase a 10 frame, 8 frame, and nucleus colony Mighty Mite Killer to share with the club/organization members.

    Here is a good resource to check out where you can ask questions of other Mighty Mite Killer users:


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/275791919813444/


    As beekeepers in these current time, we MUST apply common sense AND science to consider, evaluate, and apply new and modified methods of treating and raising out bees. Yes, the goal is to attain bees that can survive on their own in the current environment but they are going to need all the help we can provide for them. This help must not only be specialized pest treatments, but providing good natural nutrition for our bees when and where possible and supplementing that nutrition when conditions warrant. We need to communicate and work with farmers and our neighbors on striking a reasonable and survivable balance with respect to pesticide and herbicide application that our bees can tolerate and flourish in. In short, we as beekeepers must adapt and improvise to survive in the world and circumstances we find ourselves in. I see this as the path forward.
    Hi LiveOak, on Bee-l there is a discussion on the Mighty Mite Killer; can I quote your experience with this on Bee -l? It sounds like you have some experience to share with this. I would need your name to quote what you shared above. Deb
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

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