Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again). - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    I would caution against declaring anything more than a single deep as "excessive hive volume". Seems a bit like opinion stated as fact. In any case it would at least depend on climate, operating methods, bee type etc.

    Single deep is something I will be experimenting with but is certainly not automatically carte blanche simpler or documented superior wintering success: quite a few factors are involved.
    Frank

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    understood, and thank you!
    this is healthy skepticism everyone should display but if this was the case this thread would not be required. although there will be exceptions, i believe a majority would benefit from this advice; i.e. reducing volume to one deep. i encourage people to get out on a late cleansing flight day in october/november and assess the space the bees are occupying. i will also continue to tweak and search for efficiency in an effort to reduce stress within my colonies.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Rolands commerecial operation in Wisconsin apparently winters single deeps, BUT with another deep, either empty of with frames, underneath.

    Little John; I had not considered the amount of additional carbon dioxide due to the bees activities. I would assume it does not stratify but wonder what net percentage of effective weight difference it would contribute to physics of the hive atmosphere.

    Are we quibbling about the exact number of angels than can dance on the head of a pin?
    Frank

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Quote Originally Posted by logicallycompromised View Post
    understood, and thank you!
    this is healthy skepticism everyone should display but if this was the case this thread would not be required. although there will be exceptions, i believe a majority would benefit from this advice; i.e. reducing volume to one deep. i encourage people to get out on a late cleansing flight day in october/november and assess the space the bees are occupying. i will also continue to tweak and search for efficiency in an effort to reduce stress within my colonies.
    What all parameters do you consider when you define "efficiency"? Is "stress" (by what definition) always detrimental to survival of the hive and how does it relate to apiary survival?

    Do your recommendations apply at the handful of colonies level and are they scaleable to a sideliner or commercial level.

    I am only at the handful or two of colonies but my son runs close to 50. There are things I can mess around with that he sure does not have the time to do.
    Frank

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    I have been using both upper and lower entrances.

    The upper entrance ices completely shut at about -10 F



    But thaws out again when it warms up to 0 F or so. I believe it does release excess moisture, Also is usable in case we get a cleansing flight in the winter. (we don't) But also is a door for the flying dead to leave the hive.



    As you can see the bottom entrance has been snowed in since November.

    My set up is three deeps with 3" shim. With a inner cover with a screened 3' feed hole with about a 1 " upper entrance, and a medium filled with dead grass sits on tope of the inner cover. (Thanks MP for the idea.) It works great so far.

    We have very wet stormy fall here, and its been pretty cold this winter down to minus 30 F so far,and lots of snow. This was the insides of my two hives when I checked Jan 1





    Last edited by yukonjeff; 01-13-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Little John; I had not considered the amount of additional carbon dioxide due to the bees activities.
    No - neither had I ...

    I would assume it does not stratify but wonder what net percentage of effective weight difference it would contribute to physics of the hive atmosphere.

    Are we quibbling about the exact number of angels than can dance on the head of a pin?
    No, there won't be any stratification worth speaking of at these sorts of temperature. Angels on a pin ? I don't think so - if you run some numbers it's fairly convincing:

    Assuming we accept 29 for dry 'air' as being - let's say the pivot point of a see-saw (I love using these kind of analogies) - then on the 'lighter' side of the see-saw there'll be 11 molecules each of which are 11 dimensionless units lighter than air - that's 121 making the air lighter.

    On the other side of the see-saw will be 12 molecules each of which are 15 dimensionless units heavier than air - that's 180 making the air heavier.

    So for those people who consider that it's the molecular weight difference of moisture which causes the air to rise (as opposed to the temperature issue), the reverse is actually true when taking Carbon Dioxide into account - by 50%. And that's no angel on a pin ...

    Regards
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    yukonjeff - have you never thought about building a bee-shed ? Even though I have a woodburner chucking out serious numbers of therms as I write this - in shirt-sleeves - just looking at those photographs made me shiver ...
    'best
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Crofter,
    at this time, i only manage two colonies. there are two successful commercial beekeepers i am using for my business model. there are several areas of inefficiency within their operations that i am addressing and plan to make beekeeping my livelihood in the next 3 years.

    as we know, everything is a compromise one some level. i strive for efficiency within the costs to become a beekeeper and time invested while minimizing stress of the colony. i try to pursue most variables i can wrap my head around as i understand and have observed the importance of small percentages adding up to a substantial advantage. as you mention, time will become a limitation for most people. i try to assess the time involved in tasks and if it can be better spent in the quest for stress reduction. for some time, these observations will mostly be qualitative but when i have enough bees to potential sacrifice for science i will construct experiments to test topics which the community are divided on with an emphasis on reducing stress. i have a very small sample size but am relying on those i deem more qualified and my understanding of science to reach conclusions in line with reducing stress.

    i mentioned it previously, a logical way to look at bee management is to consider it in terms of a stress threshold. so long as we are able to maintain the colony below this threshold, colony survival is likely. everything we do will change this some and we need to continue to ask questions about our observations to reach objective conclusions. somethings we do to the colony fill up the bucket of stress and leave very little room for error; e.g. treatment free blasphemy. if the bucket gets near the top there are many ways to kill a colony. let us use the topic of this thread; people invest more time, money and resources into the colonies health and it has the exact opposite effect; i.e. increases stress.

    one of the areas i have focused on in my current, small operation is creating a localized environment within the hive which the bees can manage easier. this includes no bottom screen and waterproof joints around all woodenware. i also do not like common bottom boards for this reason as they create surfaces which promote water to enter the hive. my bottoms are slightly smaller than hive body and i use some screen stapled to the bottom as a landing zone. i have small holes drilled an angle in the bottom to allow water to exit; i can watch water exit in high humidity. i obsessed about this as i made a huge blunder this season which i should have prevented; i am fortunate to still have both colonies alive. i did a lot of research since that blunder to reduce the bucket of stress and help the bees winter over. my contributions to this thread are to help validate the time i invested.

    Vance G
    i made something very similar in front of my entrance out of that plastic cardboard (coroplast). i ran it in the horizontal direction as i thought it would reduce wind more?

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    LJ; the discussion of the weight differential contributed by the moisture content has gone away above my pay grade From what you state it appears I had the moisture content effect wrong. I am perhaps extrapolating the effect of high humidity reducing the horsepower of an aero engine while simultaneosly reducing wing lift. Perhaps a flawed analogy I will have to explore.

    I dont visualise a great whirlwind of convection withing a hive with well insulated closed top so perhaps the moisture content is moot in that respect. Still there appears to be a need to somehow remove the few gallons of water produced from metabolizing the honey. I think we can agree that it does happen but the exact process is a bit murky. Diffusion?

    I have only had the opportunity for a quick peak into one of my hives set up in this manner and it does not appear to be swimming in condensation on the frames or ceiling.

    It was minus 23 C. here this morning!
    Frank

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    So, there were these three blind men trying to describe an elephant...

    Frank, stick with the factors that affect density altitude and cloud ceilings. Don't be led astray.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    yukonjeff - have you never thought about building a bee-shed ? Even though I have a woodburner chucking out serious numbers of therms as I write this - in shirt-sleeves - just looking at those photographs made me shiver ...
    'best
    LJ
    I have thought about it, but still hoping I wont have to winter indoors.
    Thanks

    Cheers

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    LJ; the discussion of the weight differential contributed by the moisture content has gone away above my pay grade From what you state it appears I had the moisture content effect wrong. I am perhaps extrapolating the effect of high humidity reducing the horsepower of an aero engine while simultaneosly reducing wing lift. Perhaps a flawed analogy I will have to explore.
    Hi Frank - what happens in the outside world is different from what happens inside a beehive - as I mentioned to MB earlier on. For-all-intents-and-purposes a beehive is a closed system - where sugar is being metabolised - hence there is (more-or-less) the same amount of CO2 being produced as Water Vapour. Hence the weight of the CO2 more than offsets the normal 'upward dynamic' of the water vapour - indeed it would appear to create a net downward effect.

    In the outside world - say, when liquid water is evaporated from off the tops of ocean waves, and warmed by the sun before rising up into the heavens before re-appearing as clouds as it cools, there are large amounts of water vapour involved (and which is constantly being circulated upwards) but only 'normal background' levels of CO2 - somewhere around 400 parts per million. This is in contrast to internal beehive CO2 levels which will be significantly higher - I've seen figures of 2500 parts per million being quoted online.

    In https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ring-Honeybees there's even talk of 3,500 to as much as 10,000 parts per million being measured. That's the difference: a closed system (with CO2 being generated inside it) vs. an open one.

    So it could well be that it is this significantly higher concentration of CO2 which is determining the direction of passive air movement inside beehives(#). I'll trawl the web later today to see if anyone's researched this.
    LJ

    (#) which may not be all that great when compared with thermal influences - I can't stop thinking of how glider pilots gain such significant lift from the air currents rising above corn fields in summer ...
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    >And at times other than winter ? You appear not to believe in the Latent Heat of Vapourisation.

    Please point me to where I said anything that would appear that I did not believe in "the latent heat of vapourisation"? Of course vaporization absorbs heat, that's how they cool the hive in hot weather, but the air in the hive is now warm and moist instead of hot and dry. The moist air still rises and needs to be cleared so that more water can be evaporated.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Crofter is correct, At this time we winter the bees in a single deep, with an empty deep (with or without frames) below the bees. A single deep is all the bees NEED for winter. From the 1930's to the 1990's, only a single deep(with bottom entrance only) was used for winter, with no significant difference between the two. We moved to the present system when the Winter Caves built in the 30's wore out.

    Crazy Roland

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    This whole conversation is really interesting, but above my pay grade. I offer my bees both an upper and lower. Some use one or the other and sometimes both. Sometimes I use 1 deep and a medium, sometimes 2 deeps, sometimes 3. I don't have moisture issues and sometimes its a cold, snowy winter and sometimes it is warmish and we get more rain and ice. So far, no winter losses but only at it 3 yrs. I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to matter to my bees. J

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivej View Post
    This whole conversation is really interesting, but above my pay grade. I offer my bees both an upper and lower. Some use one or the other and sometimes both. Sometimes I use 1 deep and a medium, sometimes 2 deeps, sometimes 3. I don't have moisture issues and sometimes its a cold, snowy winter and sometimes it is warmish and we get more rain and ice. So far, no winter losses but only at it 3 yrs. I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to matter to my bees. J


    Ultimately, the only thing that matters is a dry hive. If you have moisture problems, it doesn't matter how scientific your explanation, you're doing it wrong for your location.

    Screened bottom boards, 2 years dry. 16 hives, no losses this winter so far...
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Well, I've been in lockdown now for a couple of weeks, and this state promises to continue for a good while yet ... so I've been catching up on my reading.

    One of my many 'one of these days I'll get around to reading' articles has been Langstroth's 1852 Patent (No. 9300). I wonder how many people know that Langstroth included a mesh floor within that Patent, and even glass sides to encourage condensation, with the condensate running out of the bottom of the hive ?

    I can't remember why I stopped adding to this thread - but MB must think me very rude for not replying to his last post - so I'll belatedly do that now:

    LJ: And at times other than winter ? You appear not to believe in the Latent Heat of Vapourisation.

    MB: Please point me to where I said anything that would appear that I did not believe in "the latent heat of vapourisation"? Of course vaporization absorbs heat, that's how they cool the hive in hot weather, but the air in the hive is now warm and moist instead of hot and dry. The moist air still rises and needs to be cleared so that more water can be evaporated.
    When water changes state from liquid into the vapour phase - what exactly is it that becomes cooled by the latent heat of vapourisation ? It's the molecule of water itself. And so the air (within which that molecule resides) is initially cooler, and thus denser as a result - and so will initially fall. Providing that air does not meet any obstruction, then there's no reason why it should not fall out of the hive via an open bottom.

    But - if there's a solid bottom, then that trapped air will gradually be warmed to the ambient temperature within the hive, and - due to the presence of the lighter water vapour, will begin to rise(*). Thus, both bottom AND top ventilation have the potential to eliminate moisture from a beehive. Which is why - in practice - both methods are actually found to work ok. And which is why the all too familiar "my method is better than yours" argument is actually a pointless exercise.
    'best
    LJ

    (*) Unless the hive bottom is cold, when the moisture will condense out there - hence the black mould so often seen at the bottom of some bee-boxes.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    The belief that air with water vapor in it is heavier is common. It is also not true. It's easy enough to find all the reasons it's wrong if you google anything in the lines of "moist air is heavier" or "moist air is lighter" and several thousand weatherman will be happy to explain it...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  20. #79

    Default Re: Upper vs Lower Ventilation (again).

    Facebook post from yesterday:
    This beekeeper snapped: she had to take a peak, she shoved 1 m snow just to find out that her hives, with no upper entrance, are sitting nicely tight in winter cluster. Now she hopes they will NOT come out and try to fly because of the cold weather.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...eRZxPcXD&ifg=1

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