Repeated queen fertilization
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Repeated queen fertilization

    So what people think OR maybe even know some facts about...

    .... repeated queen fertilization or re-fertilization.

    Here is a quote from a PDF book (auto-translated and edited slightly by me; will not state the author/book name for my own reasons).

    Such longevity is maintained when the queen leaves with a swarm. During the flight, she manages to mate with several dozen drones and thereby "rejuvenates". I watched a couple of such cases when the first swarm came out with a marked queen. I knew that the queen was old and laid in the former family with gaps. What was my first surprise, when the old marked queen covered for 3 days 3 frames with an even continuous sowing and later worked for a “new” place for another two or three years before leaving the swarm forever.
    Since the common, industrialized practices altered the natural life cycle of the bee, what do we really know?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,037

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    My guess, he was looking at a swarm with virgins.

    Since the reference to the book is a secret, we cannot look it up and see any context. And since the name of the book is a secret, and the name of the author is a secret, we really have no idea as to the competence of this secret person to have observed correctly, or formed correct conclusions.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,037

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    As a beekeeper you hear a lot of crazy stuff, even from people who claim to have seen it.

    A very recent one I heard was somebody's queenless hive went and stole an egg from another hive so they could raise a queen. And of course the guy knows this cos he saw them do it.

    So. How come I have never had a hopelessly queenless hive come back without some help from me?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #4
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,460

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    I've wondered if an older queen could re-mate during swarms, but they're no longer receptive at this point biologically so it's probably a pipe dream and and I've never seen a swarm queen with mating sign either. As far brood pattern getting better in this instance... the queen was shut down for a few days. There was a post here on beesource a couple years ago where someone banked two older queens with failing brood patterns for a few days or weeks and then re-introduced them in different hives and their brood patterns both improved dramatically. I would guess new comb and and the difference in swarm behavior would be the main factors in seeing improved brood patterns.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Hampton Arkansas
    Posts
    134

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Had a bought queen that never was a real good layer she was marked with a yellow dot when I got her. This past spring she left with a swarm, I thought to my self no big deal she was not very good any way. I had a swarm trap set 1 mile from my bee yard and when I checked it I had a swarm so I took it to my bee yard. When I looked inside there she was with her yellow dot. That queen went to laying like crazy and I thought everything was going to be great. About a month later she went back to laying very little so she got pinched and I ended the problem.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    My guess, he was looking at a swarm with virgins.

    Since the reference to the book is a secret, we cannot look it up and see any context. And since the name of the book is a secret, and the name of the author is a secret, we really have no idea as to the competence of this secret person to have observed correctly, or formed correct conclusions.
    OK, let me put the intrigue away.

    I simply find this author's writings a bit on a ..... "voo-doo" and mystical side of the things (and hence not really worth quoting).
    So here, the booklet is attached, if really care to translate/read it.
    The quote is taken from the page 10.

    03_biologiya_pchelinoy_semyi.pdf

    PS: however, the same author introduced me to the idea of the "natural nest block" ;
    to me this is a worthy, original idea to look at (I personally never thought of it).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As a beekeeper you hear a lot of crazy stuff, even from people who claim to have seen it.

    A very recent one I heard was somebody's queenless hive went and stole an egg from another hive so they could raise a queen. And of course the guy knows this cos he saw them do it.

    So. How come I have never had a hopelessly queenless hive come back without some help from me?
    Well, it is well documented how the African Cape bees do exactly that - recover from "hopelessly queen-less" situations.
    Google knows the details.
    So, some crazy stuff is not that crazy (just unknown or undocumented officially).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    ... they're no longer receptive at this point biologically...
    But what constitutes the "biologically receptive" and how set in stone that is?

    With natural swarming of the bees being anathema now days AND lack of systematic research methods and technologies 100-200 years ago (when natural swarming was more common), do we really know how the things really work?

    Heck, any freely flying queen out in the open maybe a fair game to some passer-by drones?
    Why really not?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,037

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Cape bees do it by thelytoky, also, the guy who told the story didn't have cape bees.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Cape bees do it by thelytoky, also, the guy who told the story didn't have cape bees.
    But the real question is - is it only the cape bees?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,037

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I simply find this author's writings a bit on a ..... "voo-doo" and mystical side of the things .
    That kind of book is where you find that kind of stuff.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,037

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    But the real question is - is it only the cape bees?
    As stated, never seen it in my bees.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #13
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,460

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    I'm guessing someone has researched it. My guess is the spermathaeca is only receptive to storing sperm when the queen is young, once you pass the window of being mated it's no longer possible to get mated or re-mated and store any new sperm.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ka'u Hawaii
    Posts
    271

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Reminds of the claim on an organic beekeeping forum that certain strains of european bees were able to raise a new queen from the eggs of laying workers. I never bought into that belief.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    washington, vermont, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Would be an easy theory to prove/disprove simply take an older failing queen and attempt to artificially inseminate her. If it worked then we need to rethink but I suspect it would not work.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Rensselaer County, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,534

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    OMG, ls that Housel positioning in early Cyrillic (pre-1000 CE) letters?

    What's the concept of a nest block? That sounds interesting.

    Nancy

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by vtbeeguy View Post
    Would be an easy theory to prove/disprove simply take an older failing queen and attempt to artificially inseminate her. If it worked then we need to rethink but I suspect it would not work.
    I suspect it will not work IF you just pull a queen out of the nest and try it.

    However...
    There maybe "something special" about that old queen going into the swarming mode and preparing to go out flying again.

    I suspect no one every tried to artificially (re)inseminate a swarmed queen either.
    Did anyone ever test freshly swarmed old queen for the "biological receptivity"?

    Very likely not.
    Because why?
    Everyone knows "the queens only mate once in the lifetime" according to... whom exactly?

    Meanwhile, a temporary boost in egg productivity by an old queen (even if for a few weeks/months) makes sense from the point of view of the homeless swarm - better survival.
    Mating with even 2-3-more drones while flying to the new home make sense.
    Didn't anyone question while taking a hanging swarm off a branch - why are all these drones hanging around the swarm?
    There are usually a bunch of them hanging about and that makes no sense as the swarm bees really don't have use for them.
    The drones are liability for a homeless swarm which is under stress already and has no resources to waste (let alone - feed drones).
    Unless - these drones are trying to make it out with the flying queen given a chance - those flying queens are a very rare occasion (young or old - it is still a female to mate with).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-20-2018 at 04:54 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    OMG, ls that Housel positioning in early Cyrillic (pre-1000 CE) letters?

    What's the concept of a nest block? That sounds interesting.

    Nancy
    Ah, yes - the old Cyrillic (probably the very original version).

    "Free-comb nest block" - https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-the-bars-too)
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,446

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Gino45 View Post
    Reminds of the claim on an organic beekeeping forum that certain strains of european bees were able to raise a new queen from the eggs of laying workers. I never bought into that belief.
    I've often thought that the laying worker hive has the potential to rectify itself ... if only the bees could figure it out.

    Some workers are laying unfertilised eggs,'cause they don't have any sperm to fertilise them with ... but ... the drones which are then produced DO have that sperm.

    So what's needed is some brighter-than-the-average-bee to figure out how to coax a drone to play along and make an in-house donation for the good of the colony
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    wnc
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    During the flight, she manages to mate with several dozen drones and thereby "rejuvenates"
    So, how was it established that the queen re mated with several dozen drones? Just because she started laying good patterns? Most of my swarms are good laying queens when they left. Oh well....

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Since the common, industrialized practices altered the natural life cycle of the bee, what do we really know?
    You lost me right there. Just what is the natural life cycle of the bee, and how have we altered it?

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •