Repeated queen fertilization - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    I think the above is referring to the natural life cycle of the queen that has been altered by those who requeen, perhaps annually, rather than allow the hive to make that decision.
    I got a chuckle out of Oldtimer's comment that the guy talking about the cape bee didn't actually have cape bees. I also have never had a drone laying hive develop a new queen without intervention by myself as enabling beekeeper.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by HillBilly2 View Post
    You lost me right there. Just what is the natural life cycle of the bee, and how have we altered it?
    Annual artificial re-queening - just one simple example.
    Prevention of the old queen going into normal and natural "swarming mode" (by artificial splitting and so on) - another simple example.
    Don't you see it?

    We can continue.....
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    I think that the swarm old queen that is attractive to drones would be called a "Cougar" queen here.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Here's a paper that states they never re-mate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4863013/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Here's a paper that states they never re-mate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4863013/
    The paper says in the line #4 of the intro:

    .............However, queen fertility has not been studied in detail,.........
    So, they did not really looked at the "fertility" in this particular context.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by couesbro View Post
    I think that the swarm old queen that is attractive to drones would be called a "Cougar" queen here.
    Happens with the Homo spp. all the time.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Gino45 View Post
    ... I also have never had a drone laying hive develop a new queen without intervention by myself as enabling beekeeper.
    Never say never (they say).
    There is lots of stuff happening under our noses we have no idea it is even happening.

    If komodo dragons can do, why assume bugs can not do it under certain conditions.
    Komodo dragons are an example of a species which can produce offspring both through sexual reproduction and parthenogenesis.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Never say never (they say).
    There is lots of stuff happening under our noses we have no idea it is even happening.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis
    That is the celestial teapot argument.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Actual copulation lasts 1 to 2 seconds. For honey bees that is.

    So someone observed a swarm, spotted the queen in the air while flying among thousands of bees, and confirmed intercourse of a drone with that queen?

    If there was video, we would have seen it. So this is clearly an observation by the naked eye.

    As Michael Palmer says, that's just more "BS on BS."

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Some awesome feeble support! What can happen with one order of amphibian or reptile is no prediction of what may be possible for an insect. There is a story too about that famous Mary girl being a virgin.
    Frank

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Actual copulation lasts 1 to 2 seconds. For honey bees that is.

    So someone observed a swarm, spotted the queen in the air while flying among thousands of bees, and confirmed intercourse of a drone with that queen?

    If there was video, we would have seen it. So this is clearly an observation by the naked eye.

    As Michael Palmer says, that's just more "BS on BS."
    NO ONE ever said - "have seen it".

    All I am saying - no one really proved it either way.
    Maybe she does; maybe she does not.
    This is because the old dogma says - it is not happening.
    There is tons of old dogma out there that no-one bothers to double-check.

    And now - with all the technology available, NO ONE actually even checked it out yet.
    Marke the darn queen so it is visible really, really well just when she is getting ready to swarm - film the darn thing N times - watch what is really happening in the air.
    With all the drones and stuff, this should be doable.

    PS: gee....
    the dogma was the nuc wintering is no possible - turned out BS;
    the dogma was resistant bees are not possible - look at SP;
    there is lots of dogma out there
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    NO ONE ever said - "have seen it".

    All I am saying - no one really proved it either way.
    Maybe she does; maybe she does not.
    Which again, is the celestial teapot argument.

    The celestial teapot argument was originally proposed to counter an argument style which goes - you can't prove me wrong, so i must be right. Bertrand said that if he stated that in some corner of space there was a silver teapot, or a vacuum cleaner in orbit, he could not demand people must believe him, on the basis that nobody could disprove it.

    To take the argument further, to prove the celestial teapot argument false, one would have to be everywhere, and know everything. Of course this is not possible.

    And so it is with the "old queens might mate when they swarm" argument.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    The way the celestial teapot argument is refuted, is the all known evidence argument.

    There can always be found a few people who believe just about anything. As in the often quoted case of big tobacco, who last century employed a number of qualified doctors and scientists, who were able to produce studies showing that smoking was good for you. This despite that the millions of other doctors and scientists knew smoking was in fact bad for you.


    So in the case of old queens mating, we could say that all known evidence, is that once the time window for a queen to mate has passed, she cannot mate. As with tobacco, there will be a tiny number of people who believe otherwise, but they have no evidence. The mating of years old queens has not been filmed, or documented in any reliable way.


    So. All known evidence is that queens cannot mate after a certain age.

    No evidence exists to prove the opposite.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    What I have observed is that when a queen swarms and reestablishes they almost always get superseded late that summer. (Assuming that you've got reasonably decent swarm traits in your bees.) So, if queens are mating during a swarm, it must not result in much improved lifespan. When I took Sue Cobey's II class, she was very firm that there is a brief window of time that needed to be followed. Of course these statement don't prove or disprove anything, but my personal belief is that this is not true.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Been thinking some more about the guy who says he saw it happen.

    I have seen drones in flight mount workers (very briefly), and even once had a drone copulate on my finger. (not one of my favorite moments, but interesting all the same)

    So it might even be that the guy who wrote this book did actually see a drone mount an old queen in a swarm. But even if he did, doesn't show the mating was successful.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Would dissection of recently swarmed queens be an approach to proving this one way or the other? I have no way to tell new sperm from old, but microbiologists might.
    Bill

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    I don't think so bill
    One way to prove it would be to manipulate things like they do to back cross a queen with her own drones and place here in a swarm, if she then starts laying worker brood, you know she mated
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    One way to prove it would be to manipulate things like they do to back cross a queen with her own drones
    Not really sure you you would back cross a queen with her own drones

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    On the whole issue of potential re-mating of queens, I'd go back to statements from Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence.

    The problem in our modern internet driven world, some folks will get convinced of a concept, then repeat it so often online that others start to take up on the idea, and eventually it becomes an urban legend 'truth' with no basis.

    Beesource is one of those online places where such things tend to grow and gain a life of their own. A prime example, some years back it was 'well known' here that small cell foundation was the bee all and end all cure for varroa mite problems. Numerous studies done on the subject, well documented controlled studies produced data that very definitively showed, that was absolutely NOT the case. But with persistent hype online around the subject, there are many many small scale backyard beekeepers today who absolutely believe that 'small cell' is the answer to all problems. They believe it so strongly that they will totally dismiss any evidence to the contrary, but anytime there is even a hint of anecdotal talk suggesting small cell is good for the bees, they will grab onto that and propogate it over and over.

    Small cell is one of those things, after endless repeating online, LOTS of folks truely believe it is a major component for keeping bees healthy, and they just will not accept documented evidence to the contrary.

    I was at a conference a couple months ago, one of the presenters said it best. His mantra thru one of the presentations, 'Dont let the internet kill your bees'. That's becoming a focus talking point for my own bee club discussions these days. Just because somebody wrote it on the internet, doesn't make it so. Dont let the internet kill your bees....

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Repeated queen fertilization

    Not really sure you you would back cross a queen with her own drones
    They take a virgin, CO2 treat here to stop mating flight instinct and start laying
    She becomes a drone layer
    Cage her to stop laying and she shrinks back down
    Then II her with her own drones.

    This proves a queen can be inseminated post ovulation onset
    Putting such a queen (marked with number) in a swarm, and having her start laying worker brood post swarm would be strong edivance.

    to grozzie's point
    We have more information available to us then at any other time in history and what do we get? The return of flat earthers.
    Last edited by msl; 12-22-2018 at 11:55 AM.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

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