Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

[Litsinger]

I really do not see anything wrong with putting some bees in the warre and then letting them do their own thing till they die with me just stealing the honey. I don't think that I would be interested in truly managing them or supporting them while I have bees in the langs cause the langs are just easier to "keep" bees in. I could have tried harder to save the warre but had langs and so why? Still, If I have enough bees, I do not feel bad of letting a warre do what it does.

Thanks, GWW. I think your sentiments largely reflect my own- the only caveat being that if I determine they are a lost cause without intervention, I want to reserve the right to experiment on them .

You always have a good perspective on things and I appreciate your input.

Have a great weekend- hope you are able to spend plenty of time in the tree-stand.

Russ

[Litsinger]

As long as we keep the sense of humor and don't pretend to have discovered a flaw in E=Mc^2, what do we care?

I could not agree more- as is being discussed in another good thread here on Beesource, I imagine many of us ultimately keep bees for the intrinsic joy and satisfaction that comes in interacting with these fascinating insects- so whether I succeed wildly or fail miserably I am ultimately doing this primarily for the enjoyment and challenge.

With nothing to hide, nothing to prove and nothing to sell I feel free to pursue this hobby with no real agenda other than trying to figure out if I can keep bees without treatments.

I expect that the more experience one has, the more opinionated one might become. Ultimately I am personally trying to maintain an open-mind about things and consider carefully information that is presented- even if on the surface it seems to conflict with my own way of thinking, and especially if it comes from folks who are well-respected in the industry. If nothing else, my thinking deeply about a contrary opinion might help clarify my own.

I'm rambling again- I suppose I would tend to give wide deference to Dr. Seeley (and others like him) given how closely he has studied honeybees and how much he has given to the craft while still recognizing that he (just like the rest of us) does not know everything (but he sure does know a lot more than I do ).

[GregV]

....

I'm rambling again- I suppose I would tend to give wide deference to Dr. Seeley (and others like him) given how closely he has studied honeybees and how much he has given to the craft while still recognizing that he (just like the rest of us) does not know everything (but he sure does know a lot more than I do ).

Granted all that (heck, I still am reading his book; will finish it too - it is a good and useful read, for sure)...

.... I still find him not appropriate (or is it evidence of ignorance? or poor proof reading?) to publicly state in the book as if he was the first to look into the natural bee dwellings.
(I posted the hard evidence too).
I have more of these...
(inconsistent and undocumented statements of swarm trap shape preferences, to begin with... one of my pet subjects)
(buried in the book and briefly mentioned in passing how his previous specifications of the bee tree dwellings are NOT accurate - people refer to those/quote them all over - well, then just say so publicly during your next Youtube presentation and put it away and done)
But enough for now.

[gww]

russ

I want to reserve the right to experiment on them .

I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.
Cheers
gww

[Litsinger]

I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.

This is a great sentiment and philosophy, GWW. I for one appreciate your input and always enjoy the banter.

[Litsinger]

I am generally more concerned with the Warre colonies than the Langstroth colonies and I am most concerned with #1905 in particular.

This colony is a swarm caught on May 1st and while looking through the entrance openings I realized I have not been a good husbandman to them as they are housed in a stack of four boxes and they only have comb in the 1st and 3rd boxes and the cluster only occupies the 3rd box.

With the return of more seasonable temperatures this coming week, I am thinking through my options with #1905.

While my mindset may change as the years progress, my general philosophy has thus far been to do everything I can to position founder colonies to succeed (i.e. donor comb and/or honey) and should they successfully overwinter, consider them on their own.

So while I can't say for certain that #1905 will fail without my help, I would hate in retrospect to think I could have tilted the scales a bit in their favor.

It looks like Wednesday's high here is anticipated in the mid 60's with a low near 50 degrees F, so as of now I intend to:

1. Remove the empty box on the top of the stack.
2. Move the drawn (but empty) comb on the bottom of the stack to immediately below the active cluster.
3. Move the empty 2nd box to the bottom of the stack.
4. On top of all this, install a newly-constructed Warre feeding shim (2X4 stock cut to 15-1/2" X 12/1/2").
5. Put a mountain camp feeding in the shim.
6. Do what I can to seal-up the cracks.

I also hope to experiment with using a guitar string to carefully cut loose any comb anchored to the box below. I have seen videos of some Warre beekeepers use this to good effect.

Feeding Shim.jpg

[Litsinger]

With the return of more seasonable temperatures this coming week, I am thinking through my options with #1905.

With a high near 62 degrees F today with very little wind and bright sunshine, I decided to take a look into #1905 and it is safe to say I was not prepared for what I found.

Specifically, when I removed the inner cover I found that this colony had comb in the top box but that the middle frames had fallen to the bottom of the box- presumably during the heat of summer. This might help partially explain their smaller cluster size and lack of stores.

To add insult to injury, there were about the equivalent of three frames left intact- some containing stores. Some of the loose cluster was in among these combs.

Not knowing what to do, I simply set the top box back on, installed the MC feeding and tried to button-up any cracks best I could. I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.

While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.

p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.

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[GregV]

While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.

p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.

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Them wires can cut you.

Cool Warre rig, Russ.
I really want to build a couple of "shallow Warre's" next season and try something completely new for me - the ergo-vertical hives.
Then maybe we could compare the notes.

As far as the the top bar hives - at least switch to the open-frames (not much more extra work) - immediately adds strength to the comb.

[Litsinger]

Then maybe we could compare the notes.

Thanks for the reply, GregV. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes, though I confess I might not be able to add much to the conversation.

As far as the the top bar hives - at least switch to the open-frames (not much more extra work) - immediately adds strength to the comb.

This is a good suggestion- given that I have taken a decidedly 'hands-off' approach with these Warres I am somewhat surprised that this happened. If this becomes a routine occurrence it seems that it would be prudent for me to develop a means to help-out.

It certainly raises the specter of bar selection as a design feature in top bar applications. These inherited top bars themselves are completely flat on the bottom- and this may represent a point of failure versus a round or wedge profile.

[GregV]

Thanks for the reply, GregV. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes, though I confess I might not be able to add much to the conversation.



This is a good suggestion- given that I have taken a decidedly 'hands-off' approach with these Warres I am somewhat surprised that this happened. If this becomes a routine occurrence it seems that it would be prudent for me to develop a means to help-out.

It certainly raises the specter of bar selection as a design feature in top bar applications. These inherited top bars themselves are completely flat on the bottom- and this may represent a point of failure versus a round or wedge profile.

I don't know, Russ, why there is a perception of top bars being "bee friendly".
They are not anymore bee friendly than full frames.
Either will direct the bees to build strictly parallel combs (not what bees do in nature normally and consistently).

Natural comb, however, IS bee friendly.
I would subscribe to this idea 100%.

Certainly, a structure with square angles is just asking for a marginally more complicated frame - because you can do it very cheaply and quickly (vs. the notorious top-bar only).
While the additional supports afforded by just marginally more complicated frames are really a great bang for the buck.
So the Warre variants are just asking for open frames (IF not the full frames, optionally).

With with that, I never understood the unnecessary complexity of so-called "simple" KTBH (the "K" version).

KTBH is not simple (the particulars of the trove with the irregular angles and depth; the loaded bar handling particulars; the fragility of the comb only attached to a bar IF any significant size/load present).
It is also complicating the equipment/comb sizing and configuration (again, due to a single point of comb attachment limiting the entire hive possibilities).
It is also complicating the compatibility with the other equipment around you.

What IS simple - right-angle/single-tier based equipment with open frames (sized up to be compatible to the other equipment designs).
You now can do a long hive; you can do a tall hive; you can do a square hive; you can even do a multi-body hive - a modified Warre.
You can exchange bees/equipment with the Lang systems - easily.
A cardboard computer box filled with scraps will do.
Now, this is simple, dirt cheap, AND yet flexible.


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[Gray Goose]

With a high near 62 degrees F today with very little wind and bright sunshine, I decided to take a look into #1905 and it is safe to say I was not prepared for what I found.

Specifically, when I removed the inner cover I found that this colony had comb in the top box but that the middle frames had fallen to the bottom of the box- presumably during the heat of summer. This might help partially explain their smaller cluster size and lack of stores.

To add insult to injury, there were about the equivalent of three frames left intact- some containing stores. Some of the loose cluster was in among these combs.

Not knowing what to do, I simply set the top box back on, installed the MC feeding and tried to button-up any cracks best I could. I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.

While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.

p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.

20191120_135904.jpg 20191120_140423.jpg 20191120_141853.jpg

Russ,

IMO either shade in summer or more air flow is needed. if the combs melted loose then it is too hot in the hive. Maybe lighter color paint. I have most of mine on the east side of a tree so afternoon sun is blocked.
perhaps a "super" with several holes for late june , july , and Aug, then pull it for honey in Sept.
GG

[Litsinger]

What IS simple - right-angle/single-tier based equipment with open frames (sized up to be compatible to the other equipment designs).

Great point, GregV. I have always thought your idea of adapting Langstroth frames to fit in all your various hive styles is a genius stroke.

I believe the thought-process behind these particular Warre hives (based on my conversations with their builder) was simplicity in construction and a minimalist approach to the overall number of parts needing to be constructed and employed in a complete set-up.

From that perspective, I see a lot of wisdom in the design, and having them around has caused me to recognize (with the help of some of your posts) that you can pretty well keep bees in just about any available volume that can be kept relatively dry inside and is defensible if you are prepared for the eventual challenges that might come in needing to inspect them and possibly harvest comb and/or honey from them.

So accepting these limitations, I am prepared to allow these Warres to serve as 'resource hives' provided that this bit of comb failure doesn't become routine.

If it does, I am definitely pursuing your suggestion to utilize some sort of modified Warre frame. Here is the 'Warre Store's' solution for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLw4PLCGnRw

[Litsinger]

Russ,

IMO either shade in summer or more air flow is needed. if the combs melted loose then it is too hot in the hive. Maybe lighter color paint. I have most of mine on the east side of a tree so afternoon sun is blocked.
perhaps a "super" with several holes for late june , july , and Aug, then pull it for honey in Sept.
GG

Gray Goose:

Thank you for the feedback- you make a great point. While this hive is not in direct sun (it is located at the end of a roofed equipment shed), it certainly could be getting too hot in there. Your suggestion to apply a ventilation 'super' in the summer sounds like a brilliant idea to me.

Last year, I was very diligent about providing top ventilation during the summer months, and this year I didn't incorporate it at all. I definitely noted that the colonies had a tougher time getting nectar cured and capped.

Anecdotally, you might recall that these hives experienced significant bearding during the summer months so that in my mind adds even more credence to your theory.

Thank you again for the helpful feedback. How are your colonies faring so far?

[Litsinger]

I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.

All's quiet here on the home front and still 12/12 knowing it is still very early. We've only had one stretch of really cold weather thus far.

While I wish I could capture a picture of it, I observed Hive #1905 gaining access to the Mountain Camp feeding by way of festooning. Specifically, by looking in the entrance of the very top box I can see two chains of bees leading from one of the loose clusters of bees on the South side of the top box to the back of the feeding rim. It also looks like this hive is sending out foragers in marginal weather (high of 45 degrees F today) to gather water (I assume).

I just finished reading Brother Adam's 'Breeding the Honeybee' and it was definitely as advertised. It is easy to conclude why his observations carry so much weight in the apicultural world. I hope to boil-down some of his more seminal observations and how I see they might relate to a TF paradigm in the coming weeks.

[Litsinger]

I just finished reading Brother Adam's 'Breeding the Honeybee' and it was definitely as advertised. It is easy to conclude why his observations carry so much weight in the apicultural world. I hope to boil-down some of his more seminal observations and how I see they might relate to a TF paradigm in the coming weeks.

My recent read through Brother Adam’s Breeding the Honeybee was enjoyable through-and-through, not only for the thought-provoking precepts it contained but also for the biographical sketch of a man who devoted his life to better understanding the innate subtleties and genetic secrets of the honeybee.

It so thoroughly whetted my appetite that I immediately had to read his book In Search of the Best Strains of Bees – and I am glad I did. This book provides the necessary context and historical understanding of the geographical dynamics which have shaped the known races of honeybee.

This deep understanding in-turn shaped Brother Adam’s approach to both bee improvement and advocacy for protection of isolated races of honeybee- to which we are all indebted.

Indeed, it is no exaggeration nor boasting when he notes (p. 53), “I am unaware of anyone possessing a similar range of experience in the sphere of cross breeding and the formation of new genetic combinations nor anybody with a similar comprehensive knowledge of the various geographical races of the honeybee and their respective characteristics, gained at first-hand. This fund of information has moreover been acquired over a period of close on seventy years by means of an extensive and intensive system of beekeeping, founded on the broadest possible basis.”

His writing is elegant, precise and succinct with an impressive vocabulary made even more remarkable when one recognizes that he personally translated our English versions from his native tongue.

For those who are unfamiliar with his life and his work, the following link gives a good basic overview:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Brother-Adam

If one had to summarize Brother Adam’s bee improvement efforts in a single sentence, they might turn to the book More than Honey: The Survival of Bees and The Future of Our World which remarks (p. 71), “Brother Adam’s credo, proclaimed in countless lectures and publications is as follows: Create as broad a genetic basis as possible and maintain it!”

While I cannot hope to do his work any justice, there are seven (7) main pillars I have been contemplating in the context of the current efforts to breed for varroa resistance, as follows:

1. Nature’s Aim in Breeding
2. Local Adaptation
3. Vitality
4. Inbreeding
5. Man’s Aim in Breeding
6. Selection Principles
7. Breeding as a Means of Combating Disease

I will endeavor to offer what little I can to each of these precepts over the coming weeks, but ultimately I hope to simply allow Brother Adam’s words to speak for themselves and present them in a manner concise enough to allow for rapid consumption.

I welcome all to participate in the discussion.

[Litsinger]

#1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.

Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...

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[Litsinger]

If one had to summarize Brother Adam’s bee improvement efforts in a single sentence, they might turn to the book More than Honey: The Survival of Bees and The Future of Our World which remarks (p. 71), “Brother Adam’s credo, proclaimed in countless lectures and publications is as follows: Create as broad a genetic basis as possible and maintain it!”

Before undertaking a discussion of the main tenants of Brother Adam's observations, I considered it prudent to speak briefly of his approach to bee improvement- which while rooted in genetic theory were firmly grounded in actual observable results.

In a 1991 article in 'American Bee Journal' entitled An Inescapable Challenge, Brother Adam considers how the beekeeping community-at-large should approach and evaluate efforts to combat the ascendant varroa menace, writing it part that, “Results obtained in the laboratory, secured in the absence of the specific colony influences, are unfortunately all too often given a universally applicable significance. The actual results secured are in no case questioned; their general validity merely assumed. Obviously, the actual reactions within a normal free-flying colony must determine the issue in every case. When in doubt, A. I. Root used to say: “Let the bees tell you.” I have here in mind the massive loss of colonies, occurring at the present in North America. These could have been largely avoided if the wide long-term results, based on practical experience, had been heeded in time.”

Here he is observing the past North American response to tracheal mite with the as-yet undetermined response to the varroa mite and suggesting that our collective history dealing with the one might yield clues for how we might approach the other.

In his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he remarks that he admires leaders in the field of apiculture who are, "... men endowed with a through grasp of the fundamentals of beekeeping – men of wide vision and judgment, who are able to cut a clear path through the tangle of purely theoretical considerations and prejudices, and who will not allow themselves to be led into barren deserts of a pseudo-scientific bee culture.” [p. 43]

Said more directly, he notes in the same text that, “Theoretical advantages and drawbacks, when put to the ‘acid test’ of severe practical beekeeping, prove all too often fictitious.” [p. 31]

Ultimately, I take all this to mean that while we should certainly be students of genetic theory and stay up-to-date on the latest academic research, our ultimate focus should be on the actual results in our specific situation- and that these results (for good or ill) should form the primary basis for our subsequent efforts.

[GregV]

#1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.

Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...

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Hunker down and don't worry too much.
For sure, they will not drag the entire dome away.

[gww]

Russ
I concur with greg. I think it is more possible you will be happy with your sugar block.
Cheers
gww

[Litsinger]

Hunker down and don't worry too much.
For sure, they will not drag the entire dome away.

Russ
I concur with greg. I think it is more possible you will be happy with your sugar block.

GregV and GWW:

Thank you both for your input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Have a great week.

Russ