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Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

217K views 3K replies 67 participants last post by  Litsinger 
#1 ·
Squarepeg suggested that I chronicle my efforts in treatment-free beekeeping- and after considering it, I thought it might be helpful in the future.

Though I have little (o.k. very little) to offer thus far, I thought it might be helpful to outline the perspectives of a rank amateur that might be helpful in the future to those just starting out.

A brief introduction- I am pushing 40 and my wife and six (count 'em six) children live on a small farm we bought a year-and-a-half ago in Western Kentucky (Climate Zone 7a) that is predominantly mixed hardwood forest and is surrounded by a mix of large row-crop areas, smaller pasture areas and numerous small woodlots along fence rows, at the back of fields and along the numerous creeks and watersheds that feed into the Clarks River.

I kept bees as a youngster in New Mexico prior to varroa becoming the scourge it now is (never mind small hive beetles), and gave it up while going to college, marrying, starting a career and raising a family- but getting back into beekeeping has always been in "the plan".

While preparing to get back into beekeeping, I happened upon "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping" and it opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out there practicing apicultural husbandry without resorting to any of the myriad chemical options currently available. This idea was appealing and intrigued me, so I read everything I could get my hands on relative to the current streams of thought in the Treatment-Free realm and I jumped-in last winter with little experience and boundless optimism. Based on what I read, here are the most fundamental decisions/goals I made:

1. Standardize around all eight-frame medium equipment for both broodboxes and supers.
2. Utilize screened IPM bottom boards with small-hive beetle trays.
3. Refrain from queen excluders - i.e. "unlimited" broodnest.
4. Source "regressed" bees and utilize all 4.9 mm foundation.
5. Employ Housel positioning.
6. Refrain from treatments of any kind (o.k. so some might call SHB trays and/or supplemental feeding treatments, but I digress).
7. Seek to get new package starts to five boxes (8 frame mediums mind you) of drawn comb and stores by the end of the season by feeding to support brooding / wax production.

While I will save my observations from this year for a subsequent post, I imagine many of your experienced beekeepers can already anticipate many of them. I made enumerable mistakes this year (which I hope to outline too). In short, here is how the year went (so far):

1. Installed two 3# packages of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation in mid April.
2. Caught two swarms in early May.
3. Made two nucs in early July (one of my many mistakes).
4. Gathered-up an usurpation swarm from one of the hived swarms in late August and installed it in one of the struggling nucs (one of my few successes).
5. Watched both packages explode like gangbusters only to crash-and-burn due to varroa in Mid-November and early December respectively (I apologize for the mite bombs that I released).

At this juncture, I am simply hoping earnestly that some of the swarmed stock that remains in my yard will make it through the winter. In follow-up posts, I will outline the most important lessons-learned (which will be obvious to you experienced beekeepers) and follow this up with my goals for this coming year in deference to Squarepeg's judicious pattern of doing so.

In closing for now, I still have little experience, but what little I gained came at the cost of a now cautious optimism. I am still enthralled with these amazing creatures and consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to interact with them and the sage souls around here who keep them.

Russ

p.s. While riding with my third daughter (age 7) recently, I asked her what she wanted to do/be when she grew up. She thought about it for a moment, got a sheepish look on her face, and suddenly got very quiet. When I gently pressed her to tell me what was on her mind she said, "Dad, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't want to be a beekeeper when I grow up."
 
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#215 ·
Answer the 2 questions at the end of post 209
MSL:

I'll gladly give it a whirl- here goes:

Q. what would the expected survival rate of the swarm be?

A. If we assume Dr. Seeley's figures are both accurate and apply equally in all areas, we would expect approximately 20% of the swarms one hives would survive (assuming no augmenting management by the beekeeper).

Q. and more importantly, what would the expected survival rate of the swarms off spring be should the swarm over winter?

A. If we assume FusionPower's observation is generally accurate, 1/3 of the open-mated offspring will have the goods to be successful.

I am not sure I've passed the quiz, so hopefully this is the practice round...
 
#216 ·
I see I created quite the misunderstanding.

I was thinking 1 (just my opinion) that the overwintered feral colonies are probably NOT weaker and in a treatment free hive environment they are dealing with very similar pressures.
Just simple little changes just as adding space to make them not swarm can not bee done in a tree.
Therefore statistics show 2 feral colonies dying I say the same swarm NOT because they are weaker or the beek treated, feed etc... would survive.

2 ferals are great meteorologist and can store lots of honey before a bad winter, BUT also will over divide/swarm in a good summer fall.


So I was suggesting they are stronger and under any slight change their would not be a 77% death rate.


I started looking into bee's after having a colony in a tree in the back yard of a house I moved into that stayed for years (without me or anyone else ever getting stung) with ant problems, no feed from me and just full feral. Until the swarm traps didn't work I was going with feral only bee's. I will still use the swarm traps to acquire more colonies.

P.S. they are not in the tree anymore.
 
#221 ·
I see I created quite the misunderstanding.
CLSranch:

Thank you for the update. I sincerely appreciate you clarifying. Once GWW offered his hypothesis of your comment, it made a lot of sense to me.

It makes sense to me that hived swarms in an appropriately managed apiary would have quite an advantage toward survival, particularly in regards to the necessary volume to build-up significant winter bees and stores to overwinter successfully.

I really do appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and I do hope you get to feeling better soon.

Russ
 
#220 · (Edited)
good on #1
What you missing on #2 is FP manages his bees, it this thought experiment we are talking about puting feral bees in a box and leaving to there own devices, there for we expect the off spring to have the same survival rate and the stock its coming form. So his 30% isn't far off seeleys 23%... but theirs a lot of space between just beeing alive and being successful.

so based on some data you have found, you have formed hypothesis. The next ting I do is search the comparabullls.
well Ross Conrad and Seeley just finished a study,
Control (C) Group: Of the 15 colonies initially established May 2016, 14 colonies (93.3%) were alive and healthy heading into the winter of 2016-2017, 5 colonies were alive in April of 2017 (33.3%)
Of the managed bees they didn't treat they lost 66% the 1st winter... Great says the TF guru, you need to split them like mad, Survivor stock and all
but wait
all 5 died over the winter of 2017-2018 and none survived into the spring of 2018. (0.0%)
https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-840/
nope they wern't resistant after all, and there offspring would be no better. You might gain a year, maby 2 by splitting heavy to get your numbers up...and distributing your mite load in the processes, giving you the illusion your making progress, and then likey a major wipe out... and no real gains.
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then we go to the Gotland Experiment
Not just the decline of the started hives, but look at the swarm survival rates... 2001, 17 swarms from 2 year "Survivor stock" , and they all died..
But those weren't ferals some may say
lucky for us Seeley (2017) has done that experment... swarms of his famous Ferals were placed in a lang and left to there own devices

Results from a 6-year program of inspecting 22 hives occupied by simulated wild colonies. Inspections made in early May, late July, and late September. Colored bars indicate type of colony, as in Fig. 2. Colored circles show colors of paint marks on queens. A question mark indicates a time when queen was not found, probably because a virgin queen. Numbers indicate how many Varroa mites were caught on sticky board in 48 h.
Blue is instaled that year, green alive, red dead

Now take a hard look... some thing is amiss... Seems the shear act of puting the hives in a lang more then dubbled the survival rate ! Seems counter intuitive with all the anti lang internet scuttle butt..
But when you read the methods, we see the swarms were instaled in single deep hives with 8 drawn frames. That's a strong jump start.

I encourage you to read the full study as there are many good bits there, but sense you asked about selection I want to point you to this gem

Figure 4.
Top: distribution of 177 mite-drop counts made during the thrice annual inspections of 35 simulated wild colonies. Bottom: colony mortality in relation to the mite-drop count of the previous inspection.
Figure 4 shows the distribution of these counts. Most (141 out of 177 = 80%) were low (0–29 mites/48 h), but some were high. Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies with mite-drop counts above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h.


EDIT... I should add
"scientists have not been able to tell anyone how to select a breeder queen, or even how to breed for honey production, so don't imagine you can" Steve Taber Breeding Super Bees
I can't tell you how to select your stock, just the mechanisms at work when it comes to shifting a trait in your population.

My point is just why you shouldn't just split your "survivor" hives in the spring, not enuff negtive slection, and way to little positive slection
 
#222 ·
My point is just why you shouldn't just split your "survivor" hives in the spring, not enuff negtive slection, and way to little positive slection
MSL:

Thank you for the detailed and helpful reply. Succinctly, I concur with you regarding being circumspect about splitting survivor stock. While I have no practical experience in this regard, your excellent information corroborates my intuitive fear, namely- even if a colony overwinters successfully, this in-and-of-itself does not substantiate their long-term varroa resistance. While I am uncertain how many years are required before one could confidently say they had "survivor" stock, this evaluation helps distill my focus on hived swarms.

Here is my thought, crude as it is:

Overwintered colonies are represented by genetics which may not be fully-appreciated for several years.

Captured swarms on the other hand are represented by unknown genetics, which are also unknown but are likely different from the overwintered colonies (particularly if one traps outside of their home apiary).

So, my thought is that your best-bet to find resistant genetics in your area is to capture as many swarms as you can and then submit them to the 'acid test' by providing them little to no management support for several years.

While there are no-doubt many holes in my logic, the idea is that after 4 - 5 years one might have some reason to hope and a bit of confidence that they had genetics worthy of propagation.

Additionally, I read Seeley's feral report with great interest. I like you keyed-into the fact that in general the colonies with the lowest mite counts fared the best. This seems to be at least a significant part of the resistance picture:

Following-up on relative mite drop numbers, I recently read in Dr. Seeley's 2017 research publication, "Life-history traits of wild honey bee colonies living in forests around Ithaca, NY, USA" the following: "Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h." Has anyone conducted periodic 48 h mite counts in a treatment-free paradigm that were significantly above these thresholds in colonies that continued to thrive and overwinter successfully or does this research suggest that there are relative mite drop thresholds at various seasonal development periods that might be predictive of future colony demise? Figure 3 in the publication shows the 6-year results of tri-annual (Pre-Swarm Spring, Post-Primary Swarm Summer and Post-Secondary Swarm Fall) 48 hour mite drop measurements of 23 colony sites and typically show the prototypical relatively low mite figures in Spring, rising through the year and reaching critical mass in the Fall on the hives that ultimately did not overwinter. By my count, there were only two colonies in the study that suffered Winter demise with Fall mite counts below 30, and eight colonies with Fall mite counts above 35 which overwintered successfully (the highest being 79). There are obviously many other factors to consider in this analysis, but does this research square with what everyone is observing in their apiaries?
Thank you again for all your help and advice- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ
 
#223 · (Edited)
As mentioned in a previous post, I appreciate the IPM boards if for no other reason than to be able to pull the trays out and get a glimpse into the inner-workings of a colony.

This afternoon I pulled the trays on both of the colonies that are overwintering at present and noticed the following:

Hive #3- Three dozen dead bees on the screen and approximately 200 mites in the tray.

Hive #4- No dead bees on the screen and approximately 315 mites in the tray (along with a fair number of SHB).

These trays were installed twenty days ago.

While I have no history to compare to, it is interesting to see how these two hives compare side-by-side. I will continue to monitor these values to establish a baseline.

Rectangle
 
#265 ·
While I have no history to compare to, it is interesting to see how these two hives compare side-by-side. I will continue to monitor these values to establish a baseline.
Because today represented 48 hours since I renewed the trays in both hives, I decided it would be interesting to conduct an ad-hoc mite drop count on both hives. Here are the results:

Hive #3- 4 mites.

Hive #4- 15 mites. Of this total, 4 were empty shells.

Not sure what (if anything) can be ascertained from these data, but I will continue to monitor periodically to see if any patterns emerge.

Today's high of 67 degrees F was accompanied by tornadic weather and monsoon-like rains. In the late afternoon when the wind and rain subsided, Hive #3 came alive with significant activity out of the upper entrance. This is the most activity I have seen from this hive to-date over the winter.
 
#226 ·
Squarepeg:

It is hard to say- there is only one beekeeper that I am aware of within a 2 mile radius of our home. That said, our place backs-up to Camp Creek, which is a wild, woodsy tributary for the Clark's River. So my hope is that they are feral-ish.
 
#225 ·
So, my thought is that your best-bet to find resistant genetics in your area is to capture as many swarms as you can and then submit them to the 'acid test' by providing them little to no management support for several years.
:kn:
I have shone you what will likey happen in such a program, yet you come back with a standard internet TF answer that has failed the vast majority who have tried it .
Overwintered colonies are represented by genetics which may not be fully-appreciated for several years.
no...some times it just takes a the mites/virus more then then a year to kill a hive.
and don't forget the hive changes genetics yearly or so.... be a bummer to lose a great queen to a swarm while you asid test them..

If only there was a way to empirically test hive performance............:waiting:

that being said, you have 2 hives, if they both make it you will need to be making splits off each to get your numbers up
 
#227 ·
I have shone you what will likey happen in such a program, yet you come back with a standard internet TF answer that has failed the vast majority who have tried it .
MSL:

My sincerest apologies- I am not trying to be difficult and I'll admit that I am slow on the uptake sometimes.

Maybe the missing ingredient is where does one start? I think I have a handle on your recommendation to graft from your top 2% colonies, but where do these top 2% come from?

Assuming one starts with hived swarms, how does one go about evaluating them for long-term viability without first observing them for a couple of seasons to determine their worth?

In a previous post I understood that you consider grafting from a colony that has overwintered twice. What does one do until they have colonies in-place that meet this threshold?

Thanks again for your help and for being patient with me.

Russ
 
#228 ·
understood russ.

i'm not familiar with how to interpret mite drop numbers over time, but it sounds like the bees may be doing a decent job of removing mites.

do you happen to have access to a microscope to inspect the dead mites for mauling?
 
#229 ·
i'm not familiar with how to interpret mite drop numbers over time, but it sounds like the bees may be doing a decent job of removing mites.

do you happen to have access to a microscope to inspect the dead mites for mauling?
Thanks, Squarepeg. I too am unaware of what these mite drop numbers mean long-term, though it is interesting to compare them across colonies at the same point in the season.

I hadn't considered looking at the mites under a microscope- I will make a point to do this!

Great advice as always- thank you for your help.

Russ
 
#240 · (Edited)
russ
I totally agree with at least trying what you can get a hold of before jumping to the conclusion that the grass is always greener in somebody else's yard.

It might be greener somewhere else and you might be set back a year or two by trying but on the other hand, you won't know till you try.

I guess it depends upon your goals. Mls approaches it like a guy who wants to breed a super bee to sell others and get the ability to be commercial with them. Some that I see just want bees and don't want to treat and want enough that they don't have to keep buying bees.

Randy Oliver used a thousand hives and ended up with two hives that hit the mark he was measuring for. He is breeding for big picture.

I, on the other hand, just want bees and to not buy bees and to get something from the bees. I do not want to make queens for others because my bees do good with out treatments. I might give a hive to somebody that came and got it if they wanted to do that but I don't want to start a business like that even if there was money in it. I want to decide how big I get and when and how much work I decide to do. That makes mine a loner endeavor rather then a community endeavor. The bees I have now will decide if that is going to work out.

Mls is correct that it does not work like that for some but the people I have seen doing it and still having bees have been more like me and it just worked so far. I have heard and believe the horror stories of those it did not work that way for them. I think the ones that it did work that way for, just tried it and they got lucky. Still, you don't know if you are one of the lucky ones unless you give it a whirl.

So if it was just to have a bee operation, try it. If it is for the science of the thing and science that was intended to spread to others through business or grants, then you may need to dot every i and cross every T.

You may have better then you can buy in your back yard already and you may not.

If they are good, you can do as you say and do the testing to find out weaknesses or prove out why, if you are so inclined.
If they are bad, you still may learn quite a bit just seeing the badness to compare to any change you decide you need.

If somebody close is having success, it is really good to find out why and copy the parts you like and have the energy for. However, if you know the odds and take your chances, you will still learn something and it might work. If you want to be boss of the community, it will be much more work.

This does not say that many points that the posters here who all have more experience then me do not have good and helpful points they are making. I respect and learn very much from them but in the end find that I am the one having to do the work and have only the skills I have for that work. I, like you, add things more slowly as I go cause I am (not like you probably) a slow guy.

I try and learn everything out there including treating but only implement things a little at a time so that I can measure what I am causing to the bees. Too many things at one time just confuses what might be causing what.

In my humble opinion.
Cheers
gww

Ps Square has tried it and it is working and he is trying to get others interested into studying why it is working. Seeley found bees that were living and then studied the why. The russian bees were there and then studied to see the how.
 
#242 · (Edited)
Mls
I hear you but like all things, It depends on what you are looking for. I don't want to buy queens and so demanding stuff from queen producers would not have much impact from me.

Randy gives a clue in one of his articles on his site scientific beekeeping.
Practical application: eventually, the mites will develop resistance to every miticide, and DWV will evolve to become more virulent.The solution is for us to stop fighting the evolutionary process, and instead work with nature, rather than against it. We need to strike a deal with varroa and DWV [8]. We beekeepers can then stop doing the fighting, turning that job over to our bees. We will only breed from colonies that exhibit traits that restrict mite reproduction (yet allow the mite and virus to survive at benign levels and transmit vertically from parent colony to daughter).
Small-scale beekeepers can do this by simply making increase only from colonies healthy enough to swarm in their second year. As Fries and Camazine acknowledge, it would be impractical to suggest that large-scale beekeepers do so. In their words:.
He also pointed out in a different article, that some of the smaller treatment free guys that are having success should have their bees looked at cause there might be gold there. I did not find the article to get the exact quote but took it to be small keepers like me type.

He also writes very much on managed bees going feral and changing quickly and living at least enough to survive long term with out interference. Some of the mechanisms used may not be helpful to a beekeeper though.

He also writes that feral pools stay kind of separate though there is probably some mixing. You have read those same studies I have.

You have to recognize that people like squarepeg exists or say they are dreaming what is happening.

I won't say that is what will happen but do believe in the possibility and that there is only one way to find out.

Randy also mentions that we may be picking the wrong traits in our breeding causing even weaker bees, things like color and that we interrupt the natural breeding cycle. On your side of this he knows commercials would go broke doing that and so reality is that stop gap is how we are going to handle mites.

I am sure even the successful treatment free beekeepers recognize some of the things you point out that could make for improvement to what they are doing. However, not improving is not going to make them unhappy if they feel they are being successful now.

I know lots of things that could help my bees. I could have moved them to my dads soy beans during my drought but was happy enough to not want to go to the work for more then they had already gave me.

mls quote
my belief is this lack of support (read $$$) has handicapped TF breeding as there seems to be little market for it...
I agree there is a lack of support (read $$$) for the breeding market from guys that are getting by with out buying bees. Those that like what they are getting now are not unhappy enough to pressure either.

If my hives keep living like they have (not saying they will) I will be wanting to sell some, not buy some. Some day I am going to quit building more equipment and I don't want another real job, I did my thirty years already.

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
It also depends on if you are talking for the bees or for what you get from the bees. Randy's position that I have read is that the bees would have worked it out by now if the people doing what they do would not go bankrupt while they worked it out. This is never going to go away cause the people doing it like what they are getting compared to the alternative in most cases. This counts for me and counts for the commercials.

Cheers
gww

Ps, It was the bees doing the breeding for decades, some with people calling some of the shots. The thirty percent reduction in mite birth was noticed in bees that were not managed. Who knows what russ will start with with out trying it to see? That is not being smarter then any breeder, it is just recognizing that some bees have been studied that do this on there own. Then people checked them to see what they were doing.
 
#244 ·
He also pointed out in a different article, that some of the smaller treatment free guys that are having success should have their bees looked at cause there might be gold there.
yes, yes there could be.
most people who set out to be gold miners go broke...
Many of us have had a need of a gold ring in our adult lives...how many went and dug for gold and diamonds?

How many people have pulled off a Clampetts and got lucky digging a random hole in there yard and got rich? A few for sure, but they are the rare exception, not the rule

anyway your filter is on high and your cherry picking things while you miss Randy's full message,

Practical application: if you are a recreational beekeeper, and stock your hives with local swarms or cutouts, there is a possibility that you might get lucky and chance upon some bees with a degree of mite resistance. But it would have been natural selection of the wild-type breeding population that favored those genetics, not your beekeeping. To the contrary, you can set that evolutionary progress back when you artificially increase the density of the host (bee) population by adding to the number of colonies per square mile. If your colonies then collapse from the varroa/DWV Monster, you’d be contributing to The Problem in the local wild-type bee population.
the beekeepers who are seriously part of The Problem are those, whether large-scale or small, whose poor management unintentionally allows collapsing hives to disperse the most virulent combinations of varroa and DWV to their neighbor’s apiaries in late summer — this is irresponsible and indefensible. But the distressing thing is that there is another group of beekeepers who, while thinking that they are doing good, are actually just as much a part of The Problem.
Ways to improve: start with resistant stock (support your local breeders), monitor varroa, treat or euthanize mite-infested colonies before they collapse and spread mites and DWV strains to surrounding colonies
1) SHIFTING BEE GENETICS TO MITE RESISTANCE

It’s time for some straight talk about shifting the genetics of the honey bee population, as this is where many recreational beekeepers delude themselves
. It does no good whatsoever to simply allow non-resistant package bee colonies to die from varroa/DWV (Fig. 6). Neither does it have any appreciable impact upon the honey bee breeding population even if you are lucky enough to identify the rare colony that exhibits mite resistance, unless you then manage to rear hundreds or thousands of daughters from that queen.

Practical application: I hate to pop the that balloon, but no matter how well-intentioned you are, the small-scale beekeeper has virtually zero chance of changing the genetics of any breeding population unless he/she collaborates with a large queen producer.

Such collaboration could consist of letting a queen producer know that you’ve identified a colony that has kept varroa under control for at least a full season. But for most beekeepers, you can exert the most influence by voting with your dollars.

Practical application: with regard to shifting the genetics, this can only happen by changing the market demand for queen bees. So long as beekeepers are willing to pay queen producers for whatever kind of non-mite-resistant queens are available, there is no reason to expect the producers to make the effort to realistically select for mite resistance. Support any breeder who is engaged in a serious program to select, propagate, and sell tested stock that exhibits resistance to varroa. Keep in mind that it is always the consumer that drives any market — when queen buyers finally start to demand mite-resistant stock before they part with their dollars, the queen producers will respond in a heartbeat.
I encourage all beekeepers to be part of The Solution — first, by monitoring varroa and preventing the collapse of their hives due to DWV, and second by putting the pressure on queen producers to start offering bee bloodlines confirmed by testing to exhibit resistance to varroa. Every beekeeper should be on the lookout for the rare colony that can handle mites on its own, and should they identify one, make sure that someone produces hundreds of daughters from that queen.
Randy Oliver- The Varroa Problem: Part 17c Being Part of the Solution.
 
#246 ·
Msl
Russ may not have to shift the genetics. Mite have been around for thirty years and his area may have shifted on its own. Don't know till you try. You will began to know as you try. If it works, then it works. From there, pick your best to make more.
Cheers
gww
 
#249 ·
GWW:

Thank you for your reply- you said it much better and more succinctly than I could have.

I might have resistant genetics in the area and I might not. I am prepared for either outcome and am listening to everyone regarding a suitable fall-back plan.

Thanks again for all your help and input.

Russ
 
#250 ·
russ, it appears we are in similar but not identical ecoregions.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Terrestrial_ecoregions_USA_CAN_MEX.svg

i'm in the northeast corner of alabama, in the sliver of gray ecoregion #17, which is described as "appalachian mixed mesophytic forests".

best i can tell, boaz is in the light green ecoregion #18, which is described as "central u.s. hardwood forests".

riverderwent on the other hand, is in brown ecoregion #48, which is described as "piney woods forests".

i think the important thing is that the environmental factors are sufficient to allow unmanaged (feral-ish, wild-type, ect.) colonies to make it through winter and cast reproductive swarms the following spring.

if you can establish there are colonies like that in the area then your chances for success are much improved.

collecting such colonies and/or trapping swarms issued from them would be somewhat labor intensive, but worth considering if there is not already proven stock in your area available for purchase.
 
#253 ·
Thank you, Alex. I really do appreciate your help.

Part of my 'stupid tax' was buying small-cell package bees without really appreciating the mechanisms underlying TF resistance.

I am afraid I'm not quite done paying for my education either. :eek:

Thanks again for your help. Please do feel welcome to chime in anytime!

Russ
 
#254 · (Edited)
Russ
I have a thought in my head that could be construed as a kind of advice from a novice. It would also go against strengthening your genetic pool. I preface it by saying I am a cheapskate that does not like to buy things.

Here goes,
In post number 187 of this thread, squarepeg gave some advice.
this is why i suggested you get your hive count up as high as your budget and time allow. in this way you can do your best to 'beat the odds' by having enough in the upper 2/3rds to get you a decent return on investment
I count this as sorta playing the numbers, the more you have the better chance all will not die at once.

You mentioned to be circumspect on splitting only healthy hives. My view is that in the beginning, if you don't want to buy a bunch of bees, getting the hive numbers up with what you have is the only real choice. This may mean in the beginning, splitting everything you have that is strong enough to make splits with and still build up for winter. To me, this is to give you the bees to be able to decide later which ones end up being best.

I did not have a choice in this cause my first year had a very warm feb and the bees decided for me and tripled on their own. There was no worrying about is this the best bee to make increase from. I have made a few splits since then and not from my best cause I did not know yet what my best might be and so made splits from those which might not make excess honey for me. I added a few more trapped bees too.

I feel better that I won't lose all ten hives then I did when I had three. I also have got to watch them an extra year or two to look for trends. I may be to the point where I have something to pick from and also have a chance (no guarantee) to weather it going bad.

My view is you have to start somewhere and in the beginning it may not pay to be super picky even though in the end, super picky is probably a good goal.

Since I am into the ideal of not spending much money on my hobby, I felt this gave me the best odds of accomplishing that and still have bees in the end to play with.

It is just a thought pattern and maybe a wrong one but I thought I would throw it out there.
Good luck
gww
Ps
I also think that splitting all in the beginning has less impact on the breeding pool due to the low numbers of hives during beginning build up. It is the background population that you are putting your faith in and if they are not good,everything becomes harder for small scale.
 
#255 ·
My view is you have to start somewhere and in the beginning it may not pay to be super picky even though in the end, super picky is probably a good goal.
GWW:

Thank you for the good, solid, practical advice. Ultimately, I may do exactly as you and Squarepeg suggest. Here are my thoughts as of now:

1. Cross my fingers and hope the two colonies I have overwinter successfully- obviously, if they die all bets are off.

2. I have ten free bottom boards and plenty of eight-frame medium boxes, so get them all set-up as swarm traps, distributed at regional locations (i.e. within 10 - 35 miles of my home).

3. I have four dedicated swarm traps, so get them set-up here at home (same location I caught two swarms last Spring), also for potentially catching my own swarms should my overwintered colony manipulations not go as planned.

4. I have two complete 5-frame nuc set-ups, so consider using them relatively early in the season.

5. Depending upon how the traps do, and how either/both of the overwintered colonies do, contemplate making a few splits to carry into next year.

Ultimately, my goal would be to have six full-sized colonies (and maybe two 5-over-5 nucs) going into winter 2019.

Along the way, I really like the idea of conducting a minimum of four (4) seasonal mite drops (i.e. Vernal Equinox, Summer Solstice, Autumnal Equinox and Winter Solstice), using this data as one proxy for evaluating long-term colony resistance.

This all may go the way of the proverbial "hell in a handbasket", but I hope it at least sets a goal to pursue to benchmark against. What do you think about this framework?

I really do appreciate your help and input, and I have learned a lot from your comments here and on other posts here on Beesource.

Thank you again, and have a great evening.

Russ
 
#256 ·
Russ
My opinion on the traps is that they need to be bigger then eight frame mediums. I used to add a skirt to my ten frame mediums. I have a couple double mediums up. I trap about the same range as you and use my relatives. They call me if they see bees around my traps. Trapping can get expensive if you have to do it all.

I don't count mites but do not discourage it. I don't cause I don't plan on doing anything even if I find some. Later, if you are breeding for hives that keep low mites, you probably have no choice. I am not a purist and if I ever do have too many problems, I will probably treat but will have problems I can see and can not overcome first. I do look and see which hives look the best. I have broke a few drone larva to look and look at my comb pretty hard for mite frass and other problems. If I ever have a dead out, I will autopsy and try to learn from it.

I have not picked a number of hives I want and have just sorta worked off of what the bees do and maybe a split here and there as a waste management cause it seems wasteful not to do something with them. I also had a little fear and just felt comfortable with a few more. I do know they can die and just have not.

Personally, I have not tried to drain every penny possible out of my bees but also try not and put any money in and so pretty much take it slow and steady. Your end goal of what you want out of the bees will have the biggest impact. I just wanted to learn the possibilities for free while I decided after learning a little which way I might jump. I still don't know for myself yet. So I don't take it too seriously and more just want a hobby that is more productive then it is a money pit.

Six is a good number but you will find you have no choice and either have to let the bees fly to the trees or get more hives or sell some bees.

Myself, I just keep building hives but that will end when I get too much honey crystallizing in my basement cause I did not sell it or give enough of it away. Bees have a way of making you move in some direction. Not like chickens where if you don't have a rooster you can stay static.

I think you are going to have fun actually doing and putting some of your home work into practice. I read a lot but still feel lost when working the bees but do know more then I did a couple years ago.

Even if your hives die, you will have a head start with the next swarm you catch due to the comb that is already drawn out. Make the best of whatever happens and adjust if you are forced to.
Keep us informed cause I intend to learn a little from you like I have from the other posters of this thread.
Cheers
gww
 
#259 ·
GWW:

Thank you again for your help and advice- I really appreciate it. In response:

I have a couple double mediums up.
My current swarm traps are double mediums, and they seemed to work well this past season- this is what gave me the idea to simply use regular production woodenware as the trap. At least in theory it will afford me more time to pick-up trapped swarms and I will not have to re-hive them when I get them home.

I don't count mites but do not discourage it. I don't cause I don't plan on doing anything even if I find some.
Having personally experienced mite collapse this year and now having some inkling of what to be looking for, I would prefer to avoid this in the future. Based on feedback received here on this forum, my long-range thought now is to monitor mite drop levels at a regular, periodic intervals in each hive, each year, and use these data to be proactive in dealing with an impending mite collapse and at least use these values as one evaluation point in the future when considering what hives to propagate from.

Personally, I have not tried to drain every penny possible out of my bees but also try not and put any money in and so pretty much take it slow and steady. Your end goal of what you want out of the bees will have the biggest impact.
This is a great point, and it seems you have a good handle on this in your own operation. At the end of the day, beekeeping is a hobby to me personally so I am afforded the luxury of not having to support my family by this boondoggle. So, I prefer the slow and steady approach, allowing me the opportunity to learn and react to the myriad mistakes I no-doubt still have to make in learning the craft.

Six is a good number but you will find you have no choice and either have to let the bees fly to the trees or get more hives or sell some bees.
I actually have equipment enough for twelve hives, and I will not turn-away any homeless bees as long as I have equipment to support them. Beyond that, I can't see far enough ahead to predict whether I can successfully maintain any more than that. I'd like to think I could, but I learn more every day about what I don't know!

Even if your hives die, you will have a head start with the next swarm you catch due to the comb that is already drawn out. Make the best of whatever happens and adjust if you are forced to.
This seems to be a fundamental axiom in beekeeping (and animal husbandry in general) isn't it? Losses and set-backs are part of the process, but life prevails.

I really do appreciate your helpful input, and I am really encouraged that you have been able to successfully build your apiary with many of the fundamentals I am pursuing. I sincerely hope that 2019 is a year of overflowing prosperity for you and your family.

Russ
 
#261 · (Edited)
Along the way, I really like the idea of conducting a minimum of four (4) seasonal mite drops (i.e. Vernal Equinox, Summer Solstice, Autumnal Equinox and Winter Solstice)
What evidence have you found to suggest that timing? .
You have Seeleys dates as a baseline and throw them right out the window. Filter on high again I guess.

Russ may not have to shift the genetics. Mite have been around for thirty years and his area may have shifted on its own
sure, I have repeatedly aloknlaged this chance, but even if he finds something in his traping radius, The DCA his queens end up at could still water it down
However his state TX lost 26.2% and TF 48.9%.
Compare that to SP and FP state were TF loses were 29.3%, Rivers were its 20.1% your, state were they are 32%
(All numbers BIP, BYBK, last 5 years, total losses)
right now he is at 66% losses ?

TF is a bit like gambling… You can go with luck, or you can count cards and read tells. I suggest the latter, then getting lucky is just a bonus
 
#264 ·
What evidence have you found to suggest that timing?.
MSL:

Thank you again for being willing to push-back on my thoughts- I really do appreciate having constructive criticism of my proposed approach. Your point is valid- there is no specific rationale with the four dates selected other than they generally corresponded to seasonal change and would be relatively easy to remember. That said, I take no exception to modifying that parameter to correspond with Dr. Seeley's testing protocols, specifically in evaluating three times per year: Pre-Swarm Spring, Post-Primary Swarm Summer and Post-Secondary Swarm Fall.

However his state TX lost 26.2% and TF 48.9%...right now he is at 66% losses?
To clarify, I am located in Western Kentucky and at least per the BIP it appears that the latest preliminary loss figures stand at 35.7%.

https://beeinformed.org/2018/06/21/...losses-by-state-and-the-district-of-columbia/

You are correct that my losses currently stand at 66% (i.e. I had six colonies in October and I am down to two as of right now). To distill these figures down:

1. The two full-sized colony losses are represented by April package starts of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation. Both failed due to varroa collapse (In November and December respectively). As I have noted, this experience was both disheartening and enlightening and has encouraged me not to allow a colony to collapse in this manner again if I can help it.

2. The two single five-frame nuc losses are represented by July starts of queenless nucs. As previously noted, I believe both the method (i.e. limited resources) and timing (dearth) were both mistakes and I attribute these losses to beekeeper error as neither showed any signs of disease.

3. The two full-sized colonies which remain alive to-date are June caught swarms of unknown origin. As opposed to the purchased packages, they both have exhibited consistently low mite drops in the oil trays maintained under the hives the entirety of the season.

Based on this vary limited experience, I felt that evaluating local swarm stock was a worthwhile experiment- especially now that I have a better handle on a back-up should it not work out thanks to feedback from folks like you, GregV and Juhani.

I really do sincerely appreciate your help and input, and I will gladly eat crow if this hare-brained scheme does not work out.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your insightful and helpful information.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a most prosperous and healthy 2019.

Happy New Year!

Russ
 
#267 · (Edited)
This is were sticky board meets Ouija board... time of year, brood rearing, etc all plays a part a
for the UK they say
Multiply the daily mite fall figure by one of the following.
Winter i.e. November to February x400
Summer i.e. May to August x30
March, April, September and October x100 (These periods are approximate only)"

http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=199

but you have to adjust for your current brood rearing state, and check for grooming behavior
by your last counts
Hive #3- Three dozen dead bees on the screen and approximately 200 mites in the tray.

Hive #4- No dead bees on the screen and approximately 315 mites in the tray (along with a fair number of SHB).
hive 4 would be in real trouble, like shood be dead, if you were in my climate with brood less hives or at lest would crash when brood rearing starts and virus goes critical as the 20 day sticky run says 6300 mites....
Maby in your climate you have stated brooding earlyer and its saying 1575... but that's likly close to 8-10% given bee pop this time of year...

Is this the case?
Don't know, its a sticky board, that's why I don't like them

note Seeley Sept 90 in 48 is the same as a Dec 22.5 in 48... and your 20 day advrage on hive #4 was 31.5 per 48hour... time will tell
 
#268 ·
i am curious to know if the dead mites are dying of natural causes vs. being eliminated by ankle biting bees.

russ, does your microscope have enough resolution to allow for comparison to the photos in the purdue article?
 
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