Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

216K views 3K replies 67 participants last post by  Litsinger 
#1 ·
Squarepeg suggested that I chronicle my efforts in treatment-free beekeeping- and after considering it, I thought it might be helpful in the future.

Though I have little (o.k. very little) to offer thus far, I thought it might be helpful to outline the perspectives of a rank amateur that might be helpful in the future to those just starting out.

A brief introduction- I am pushing 40 and my wife and six (count 'em six) children live on a small farm we bought a year-and-a-half ago in Western Kentucky (Climate Zone 7a) that is predominantly mixed hardwood forest and is surrounded by a mix of large row-crop areas, smaller pasture areas and numerous small woodlots along fence rows, at the back of fields and along the numerous creeks and watersheds that feed into the Clarks River.

I kept bees as a youngster in New Mexico prior to varroa becoming the scourge it now is (never mind small hive beetles), and gave it up while going to college, marrying, starting a career and raising a family- but getting back into beekeeping has always been in "the plan".

While preparing to get back into beekeeping, I happened upon "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping" and it opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out there practicing apicultural husbandry without resorting to any of the myriad chemical options currently available. This idea was appealing and intrigued me, so I read everything I could get my hands on relative to the current streams of thought in the Treatment-Free realm and I jumped-in last winter with little experience and boundless optimism. Based on what I read, here are the most fundamental decisions/goals I made:

1. Standardize around all eight-frame medium equipment for both broodboxes and supers.
2. Utilize screened IPM bottom boards with small-hive beetle trays.
3. Refrain from queen excluders - i.e. "unlimited" broodnest.
4. Source "regressed" bees and utilize all 4.9 mm foundation.
5. Employ Housel positioning.
6. Refrain from treatments of any kind (o.k. so some might call SHB trays and/or supplemental feeding treatments, but I digress).
7. Seek to get new package starts to five boxes (8 frame mediums mind you) of drawn comb and stores by the end of the season by feeding to support brooding / wax production.

While I will save my observations from this year for a subsequent post, I imagine many of your experienced beekeepers can already anticipate many of them. I made enumerable mistakes this year (which I hope to outline too). In short, here is how the year went (so far):

1. Installed two 3# packages of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation in mid April.
2. Caught two swarms in early May.
3. Made two nucs in early July (one of my many mistakes).
4. Gathered-up an usurpation swarm from one of the hived swarms in late August and installed it in one of the struggling nucs (one of my few successes).
5. Watched both packages explode like gangbusters only to crash-and-burn due to varroa in Mid-November and early December respectively (I apologize for the mite bombs that I released).

At this juncture, I am simply hoping earnestly that some of the swarmed stock that remains in my yard will make it through the winter. In follow-up posts, I will outline the most important lessons-learned (which will be obvious to you experienced beekeepers) and follow this up with my goals for this coming year in deference to Squarepeg's judicious pattern of doing so.

In closing for now, I still have little experience, but what little I gained came at the cost of a now cautious optimism. I am still enthralled with these amazing creatures and consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to interact with them and the sage souls around here who keep them.

Russ

p.s. While riding with my third daughter (age 7) recently, I asked her what she wanted to do/be when she grew up. She thought about it for a moment, got a sheepish look on her face, and suddenly got very quiet. When I gently pressed her to tell me what was on her mind she said, "Dad, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't want to be a beekeeper when I grow up."
 
See less See more
#1,140 ·
1) New comb = powerhouse colonies and strong flows understanding that the price paid was a decreased crop. Put one box of foundation on everything you own OR dedicate a handful of hives to drawing comb and put many boxes on those few colonies. Sometimes I do both.

2) Rotate small amounts of foundation into brood nest . But I find this primarily works for me very early in the year when certain requirements are meet.

What I find doesnt work much for me---sticking foundation below brood nest or trying to get them to touch boxes of foundation early in the year even when pushed to point of crowding.
 
#1,141 ·
What I find doesnt work much for me---sticking foundation below brood nest or trying to get them to touch boxes of foundation early in the year even when pushed to point of crowding.
BigBlackBirds:

Thank you for your input and detailed description of what has worked for you. I sincerely appreciate it!

I remember Squarepeg mentioning that colonies are reticent to draw-out new comb prior to reproductive cut-off and it sounds like your experience has been similar.

I want to think through this issue more deeply, but I am interested in generally finding a means to get most colonies to draw out some new comb in most years understanding that I will pay a surplus honey penalty.

Thank you again for your input and helpful reply- it is insightful.
 
#1,145 ·
A beeHAVER starts a package in April and hopes for their success, plants his garden, fills his swimming pool, adds one super to his bees and hopes for their success, observes his bees from the back of his lawn mower before he leaves for vacation at the beach and hopes for their success, harvests his tomatoes, squash, cantaloupes in the cool of an August evening and hopes for the success of his bees, waits for a cool September weekend to collect his honey and finds that his bees only made about 10 pounds of honey, and BLAMES the queen producer who sold him the package of bees. In contrast, a beeKEEPER reads the writings of bee researchers and bee scientists and follows their new findings of management techniques, cares for the health of his bees by administering medical treatments that the scientists suggest and DO IT WHEN THE SCIENTIST SAYS TO DO IT, does not relegate his bee work to weekends but performs the needed work on what ever day is best for the bees, and attends bee meetings at many different sites to LEARN, LEARN, LEARN! What do you get for all this? Your reward is the self PRIDE of being successful, and enjoying the JOYS OF BEEKEEPING!”
This simplification is so limited and narrow I am not even sure where to start hacking at it.....
And so I wont.
:)

Not too much a fan of Mr. Imirie's sayings (nuclear physicist or not).
Especially, granted he categorized himself into the higher cast of the beeKEEPERs, I presume.
Sorry.
:)

PS: unsure how he would ever categorize the bee tree runners (if he even knew of their existence).
 
#1,147 ·
This simplification is so limited and narrow I am not even sure where to start hacking at it.....
And so I wont.
GregV:

I appreciate your feedback, and I do think I know where you are coming from.

For me, I tend to hold to the idiom of 'chewing on the meat and spitting out the bones'- so while I may never adopt some of Mr. Imirie's central tenants I think there is still much to be learned from his extensive knowledge of bee behavior and manipulation techniques in a tightly-managed setting.

More to the point of being a 'beeHAVER', I am certain I fit the definition though I take solace in the knowledge that George's most fundamental admonition toward upgrading to a 'beeKEEPER' was continuous learning and improving one's skills.

In this, I think we all might agree- regardless of where our education ultimately leads us.
 
#1,153 ·
I think of the bees' thinking as more like rule-followers; and it's my job to figure out the rules. As well as the exceptions.

So robbing isn't "naughty" or anything value-laden, just a behavior triggered by 1) unguarded sugar source and 2) many foragers out of work due to a dearth.

Put on top of that, some colonies have a high inclination to "look for trouble" and others "mind their own business" longer. ;) Or it could be phrased that some colonies have a higher level of sending out foragers despite little being brought in, and so are the first to exploit a situation that leads to robbing behavior. There is likely a heritable component to this trait.

It's hard not to feel sympathy for those hard-working foragers, since empathy is a human emotion that we can extend to non-humans, like bees and cars and robots. But I do recognize that they don't feel existential angst about their lot in life.
 
#1,154 ·
I think of the bees' thinking as more like rule-followers; and it's my job to figure out the rules. As well as the exceptions.
Trish:

Thank you for your reply. I was glad to see your post. You explained what I was attempting to in a more succinct and much clearer way than I did- so for that I thank you!

In my personal experience it is equal parts maddening and fun to run up on something totally unexpected and attempt to ascertain what the bees were 'thinking'.

9 times out of 10, it becomes painfully obvious to me that beekeeper error is to blame- the other 1 out of 10 I chalk up to 'bees being bees'... but truth be known it's probably my fault too and I am just not smart enough to diagnose the problem I created ;).

Thank you again for your reply- I really appreciate it!

Russ
 
#1,158 ·
George Imerie lived in Maryland, about 150 miles north of me. The weather he described is accurate. For the past 25 years living in Richmond, I know that there will be several very warm days in January. Some years I have seen it as high as 70°F. Briefly. February, not so much. That is typically our coldest month. Many years our Spring starts in early March. Bear in mind that George was writing specifically to MD beekeepers.
 
#1,161 ·
It is finally reliably cooler here now with lows in the 40's and highs in the 60's. There are a few hours of foraging ongoing with a little bit of orange pollen still coming in.

I pulled-off the hive-top feeders and took a quick peek inside all dozen hives- so far, so good.

It has been interesting to watch the Warre colonies decide how to winterize the entrance openings in each box.

Specifically, the boxes I inherited have a 7/8" diameter hole in the middle of one of the narrow sides of each box.

The Warre colonies are either in three or four boxes and thus have three or four openings.

Regardless of the current colony population, all five Warre colonies have begun propolizing some of the openings, and are consistently occluding the lower openings more than the upper openings.

They are not however completely closing off any of the openings.

Most of my free time is now devoted to cleaning-up my orchard disaster from this year.

If you would have asked me at the beginning of the year if I would have more success with bees or fruit trees, I certainly would not have said bees...
 
#1,162 ·
Dr. John Chambers sent me a PDF advance copy (attached) of his presentation tomorrow at the 'National Honey Show' entitled, "Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers".

This talk is a slightly different version of his talk which is posted on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9-FoSRrs4o

When the talk itself is posted, I will make a point to link it here.

For those of us who have been patiently awaiting his "Four Incompatible Approaches to Bee Improvement" talk, he mentioned he is scheduled to give it at this February's 'Bee Improvers and Bee Breeders Association Conference'.

View attachment Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers.pdf
 
#1,163 · (Edited)
Dr. John Chambers sent me a PDF advance copy .........
Many Thanks!
A very good read.

Summary: main learning points
1. The main European honey bee subspecies were separated for millions of years by climatic and geographic barriers.
2. They followed independent evolutionary journeys and developed different genetic legacies.
3. They adapted in isolation from each other to particular environmental conditions.
4. Importation of honey bee stock disrupts genetically-determined environmental adaptation.
5. Modern bee keeping practice has all but destroyed natural selection pressure.
6. The combination of locally-adapted genetic diversity and natural selection pressure is absolutely crucial to global honey bee health.
 
#1,168 ·
I have had an article entitled, 'Drone Saturation for Small Scale Operations' waiting patiently for a rainy day to be read. Written by Dr. Larry Connor and published in 'Bee Culture' in 2006, it presents some intriguing ideas for how a sideline beekeeper might assert control over the genetic make-up of a yard while operating with as little as 40 colonies.

The central idea is built around the idea of 'Drone Holder Colonies' which are, "...made up of four frames of drone brood from target drone producing colonies, three or four frames of worker brood, adhering bees (no laying queen), and frames of pollen and honey."

Along with this, a caged virgin queen is also maintained in each hive.

In this approach, a frame of drone brood is removed from one's 40 production colonies every two weeks and is installed in the 'DHC's' which seeks to provide you with approximately 80,000 drones- or 80 drones per 1,000 queens. These 80,000 drones are maintained between 1/4 and 1/2 mile from the cell-building colonies to assure good DCA coverage.

While it is unlikely I will pursue systematic queen rearing in the foreseeable future, it is helpful to consider the dynamics represented in this approach and how they relate to fostering successful and diverse queen matings in one's own yard.

Additionally, Dr. Connor outlines a relatively straightforward and intuitive method for evaluating the available genetic resources over a two-year period.
 

Attachments

#1,169 ·
Mr. Erik Österlund recently commented on recently published research surrounding the Gotland bees that caught my attention. The research is entitled, ‘Population genetics of ectoparasitic mites suggest arms race with honeybee hosts’ and it was published this August in the journal ‘Scientific Reports’:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47801-5.pdf

From the abstract:

“The results show significant changes in the genetic structure of the mite populations during the time frame of this study. These changes were more pronounced in the V. destructor population infesting the mite-resistant honeybee colonies than in the mite-susceptible colonies. These results suggest that V. destructor populations are reciprocating, in a coevolutionary arms race, to the selection pressure induced by their honeybee host.”

Three (3) main points stood out to me:

Varroa is limited in its ability to adapt due to genetic bottlenecking-

“Host-parasite coevolutionary theory predicts that adapted host resistance traits, in response to parasitic pressure, are expected to induce a reciprocated selection pressure on the parasite, strong enough to drive counter adaptations towards a fitness optima. This ultimately results in an arms race with a series of adaptations and counter-adaptations between the host and the parasite. In most scenarios, the parasite, usually with a shorter generation time than its host, would have an advantage in this arms race. However, in this particular system, V. destructor is at a disadvantage due to an important factor: the invasive mite population in Europe has a low level of genetic diversity. This is in part due to a founder effect abolishing most genetic diversity during only a few invasion occasions from its original host, but also due to the reproductive biology of the mite with frequent incestuous mating.”

Yet there are changes in the varroa population on Gotland (and likely everywhere else)-

"Hence, these independent but complementary analyses clearly indicate that V. destructor populations have changed within the eight years separating the collection of the current and historical samples. These changes led to a higher level of differentiation and an increased diversity of mite genotypes in the resistant colonies compared to the susceptible ones. These variations of population structure and diversity may reflect host-parasite interactions between A. mellifera and V. destructor, but could also be caused by an influx of foreign mite genotypes in the current samples, the development of resistance to acaricide treatments and/or genetic drift."

But these changes are not impacting the survivability of the isolated bee population on Gotland-

“In 2006, Fries and Bommarco performed a cross-infection experiment with the Gotland resistant honeybee population to test for varying host responses to mites, sourced from either the resistant or susceptible populations. In their study, only 3 years before the historical samples of this study were taken, they found that mite source had no effect on the colonies and that Gotland colonies had significantly reduced mite infestation rates. Since their study was published, there has been a consensus in the scientific community to regard the mite as a “fixed factor” in the studies of underlying mechanisms to explain the long-term survival of naturally adapted honeybee populations, supported by the limited genetic diversity in the mite population. The historic mite samples of this study confirm the results of Fries and Bommarco’s in 2006 that the mite source did not influence the bees, since the mites in 2009, only 3 years later, did not significantly differ genetically between groups. However, by looking over a decade after Fries and Bommarco’s study it is evident that a change has occurred in the genetic structure of the mite populations between surviving and treated colonies. Performing a similar cross-infection experiment testing the current mite genotype in the Gotland resistant and susceptible colonies will show whether the genotypic differences observed in the current samples of this investigation are associated with phenotypic differences and will help understanding how the diversity of V. destructor populations observed at the genetic level may impact the survivability of their hosts. If the genetic changes on the neutral markers of this study are confirmed by phenotypic changes, the recently updated version of the genome of the mite could be used to unravel the genetic bases of the parasite adaptations. Inhibiting mite reproductive success is a well defined genetically inheritable trait of the Gotland mite-resistant honeybee population, even if the mechanisms explaining how the bees are capable of this are still not completely clear.”
 
#1,170 ·
In preparation for the record-breaking cold weather predicted for my area this coming week, it has been interesting to see how the colonies in the Warre hives cluster as compared to those in the Langstroth set-ups.

Specifically, the Warre colonies are packing the entrance of the opening adjacent to the main cluster mass in similar fashion to how I have observed tree colonies do around here.

While I do not know whether this is a function of the aspect ratio of the volume of a Warre box versus a Langstroth box or is more driven by the effect of the larger horizontal insulating mass, it is interesting to observe the difference.

More generally, most of the colonies are starting out either in the top or second to the top box with but few exceptions.

Pest
Eye Wood Circle Carpenter bee Still life photography
Eye Insect Pest Membrane-winged insect Carpenter bee
Wood
Eye Iris Organ Close-up Circle
 
#1,176 · (Edited)
Last night's low of 16 degrees F broke our previous low for this date of 24 degrees F. It afforded the opportunity to check cluster sizes and so far, so good but it is obviously still very early.

I am generally more concerned with the Warre colonies than the Langstroth colonies and I am most concerned with #1905 in particular.

This colony is a swarm caught on May 1st and while looking through the entrance openings I realized I have not been a good husbandman to them as they are housed in a stack of four boxes and they only have comb in the 1st and 3rd boxes and the cluster only occupies the 3rd box.

So while I will make a point to consolidate them during a return to more seasonable temperatures next week, they are a small cluster which has not made appreciable gains this year and are short on stores.

Do I:

1. Combine them with another colony?

2. Put some supplemental dry feed on them?

3. Button them up and let them manage the best they can?

It is situations like this that remind me that no matter how much you read about beekeeping, there a some things you just can't make effective decisions about until you have experimented and learned (by success or failure) what will or won't work in your specific situation and climate.
 
#1,179 ·
Do I:

1. Combine them with another colony?

2. Put some supplemental dry feed on them?

3. Button them up and let them manage the best they can?
I am biased towards trying to winter them as-is even if small (so to try saving a potentially valuable queen - which you never know - a crappy general production queen could make a valuable TF queen). Year after year I am trying to improve on small cluster wintering. Equipment configuration is important with small cluster; a case in point - scary small cluster winter fine in poly hives - this is because the equipment does matter. Your Warre equipment maybe actually OK for this.

Now - the combines done during the cold season are possible where both queens survive (in different configurations).

I would
1)insulate as best as possible (don't worry of humidity if cluster is small);
2)make sure to put dry feed above - it is energy saving feed in winter - do the MC-style as it creates solid "ceiling" and cover the MC heap with plastic (so to trap some moisture into sugar - again, with the small cluster you need some moisture trapped, not ventilated away)
 
#1,177 ·
russ
If the other bees will live with out the small hive, why not just try to winter them and see what happens? Might learn from it and would be no worse off if they die and the others live with out them. I would do the sugar block cause I like the ideal of it for emergency though my one small hive that died was too small for even that to help in the end. My opinion on mine is that small amounts of bees did not breathe enough water to keep the hard sugar usable cause they did not work it like my slightly bigger hives did. Just a guess though. Could just as easily be that the cluster was too small to make heat in the center of the mass for them to rotate in and out of. I watched a documentary of penguins once on how they gather together and are continually rotating from the edge to the center. Seems like bees might do a little of that to me though I don't know for sure.
Good luck
gww
 
#1,178 ·
Bees rotate from the center of the cluster to the outer edges, then back to the center again. But there are exceptions. Some bees stay on the edge of the cluster for long periods of time only moving when they need to eat.
 
#1,180 ·
GWW, Fusion_Power and GregV:

You guys are great- thank you for your collective input.

My thought now will be to cut the stack down to three boxes, removing the empty volume from the top, making the active cluster topmost, and then swap the first and second boxes so there are two boxes of contiguous comb with an empty on the very bottom.

Then, install an eke above the cluster to apply a Mountain Camp feeding on top.

Currently, I have an inner cover installed and a 1" thick bit of insulation above that and below the outer cover- thinking through GregV's idea of putting a sheet of plastic above the eke and below the inner cover and assuming that since these Warre boxes have holes in each one, this might be something well worth experimenting with.

Thank you all again for your advice- now to scrounge up some 2X stock to make a Warre feeding rim...
 
#1,184 ·
GWW, Fusion_Power and GregV:
....thinking through GregV's idea of putting a sheet of plastic above the eke ......
You can always fold 1-2 corners of the plastic - thus creating an opening for the excessive moisture to escape (IF your config allows and IF you have the issue).
But in general - moisture is the issue with large clusters.

I use food-grade, freezer ZIP lock bags (1 gallon) - sliced open into a flat sheet.
A good way to up-cycle the old bags (say, it got torn/punctured) - the "food-grade" property sounds re-assuring - freezer-grade plastic is a strong material.
Does not need to be a complete seal either, just enough to trap some moisture into the sugar pile.

FYI - last year I did loose a small cluster to moisture (to the point of that MC mound was NOT hard but rather a pile of loose and moist sugar - a bad symptom - the MC mound must harden and stay that way - by design). The real issue was - bulk water was entering the hive somehow - the major contributor there and my lack of care.
 
#1,195 ·
Russ
I say that testing with things like your small hive really don't need any scientific value put to them. It was just a thing that was left like it was left at the time it was left and with nothing to really lose no matter the outcome. It might work or not this time and be different next but really causes no change in your situation either way it goes.

If the other hives are similar, they the chance of having similar outcomes come spring. If one of the others dies but some live, it will be for a different reason then you added or did not add bees to them.

If the small hive does live, it would show nothing except that it is possible. If it dies, it was probably meant to be.

I really don't see a change in your status come spring and you really were left with what you were left with and will probably be left with again in years to come. Next time you might combine and then split in spring. Abby warre in his book said that if you measured winter clusters, you would find very little difference in cluster size and so if you combine, the hive might naturally slim down anyway. I don't know if abby is right on this but figure in my mind that you really don't need to learn from being left like you were. Hope is eternal and a spring surprise would be nice though.

The one thing that might be learned though is why the hive ended up the size it did. On my small hive that never built up, I am almost sure that the other hives were robbing it the whole time they were trying to grow. Why they were weak enough that that could happen, I have not figured out though. There is always next year to learn more though.
I am just gabbing though.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,197 ·
Russ
I say that testing with things like your small hive really don't need any scientific value put to them.

...

I am just gabbing though.
GWW:

Great observations- I can't argue with anything you said. I am impressed with how well you are able to recall all these things you have read. I expect it is at least in part this excellent accumulation and retreaval of information that makes you such a successful beekeeper.

Regarding scientific value- I agree with you, and maybe what I should have said is that I always want to be purposeful in the decisions I make so that I am best-prepared to learn from them.

As an example- if we take it as a given that a small cluster should not (in general) experience a condensate problem while overwintering in my climate, I add the plastic assuming that it might- make no difference, slightly increase the moisture accumulation or significantly increase moisture retention to the point that the hive fails on this point. No matter what happens, I am trying to think in my mind how would I observe what is going on so I can determine whether adding the plastic is worth evaluating further in the future.

Just as an example...

Now I am blabbing, but I suppose we beekeepers can afford to wax esoteric when we can't be in the hives.

Besides, I am getting tired of cutting and splitting firewood!

Thanks again for your input. It is most appreciated.

Russ

p.s. You are exactly right that I should get to the bottom of why this particular colony didn't thrive this season. My excuse is that they are in one of the Warre hives with top bars only and I for one have yet to figure out how to do a through inspection of one without butchering it in the process. So I have contented myself by leaving them 'semi-hermetic'. Not at all sure this is going to be a workable solution in the long-run.
 
#1,198 ·
russ
p.s. You are exactly right that I should get to the bottom of why this particular colony didn't thrive this season. My excuse is that they are in one of the Warre hives with top bars only and I for one have yet to figure out how to do a through inspection of one without butchering it in the process. So I have contented myself by leaving them 'semi-hermetic'. Not at all sure this is going to be a workable solution in the long-run.
This is exactly the reason that I let my small warre die and did not intercede in any way. I was never sure till the end that the bees even had a queen due to not being able to look well enough. So I did not add nurse bees to try and help them and mostly just watched their progress by tipping and seeing how they progressed in comb building. I was surprised they made it as far as they did cause I was sure they were dead long before they died. I will say that now that I have just enough hives that I think I might survive most things and still end up with bees, I will probably let what happens happen if I ever put more bees in the warre again.

I am still interested in using the warre if it is the easiest way to hive a swarm or something (say just sitting there and me being to lazy to carry a lang down).
I really do not see anything wrong with putting some bees in the warre and then letting them do their own thing till they die with me just stealing the honey. I don't think that I would be interested in truly managing them or supporting them while I have bees in the langs cause the langs are just easier to "keep" bees in. I could have tried harder to save the warre but had langs and so why? Still, If I have enough bees, I do not feel bad of letting a warre do what it does.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,204 ·
russ
I want to reserve the right to experiment on them
.
I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,205 ·
I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.
This is a great sentiment and philosophy, GWW. I for one appreciate your input and always enjoy the banter.
 
#1,216 ·
#1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.

Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...

Wood Wood stain Table Hardwood Stain
Stain Wood Pest Insect Table
Pest Stain Insect Termite Membrane-winged insect
 
#1,218 ·
#1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.

Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...

View attachment 52783 View attachment 52785 View attachment 52787
Hunker down and don't worry too much.
For sure, they will not drag the entire dome away.
 
#1,222 ·
This might be common knowledge to many of you in the TF realm, but I recently came across this compendium of resources from the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association that is a repository of many of the research papers associated with this US-based effort- I've learned a lot from reading through some of these papers thus far:

http://www.russianbreeder.org/mechanisms-of-resistance.html
 
#1,227 ·
So I am left to conclude that those of us who live in areas with a wide and ever-changing genetic background really only have two options:

1. Utilize a strict and consistent system of closed-mating (either by breeding isolation or by frequent mated queen introductions) to maintain a predictable set of traits.

2. Assume the benefits, liabilities and unpredictability of the local genetic population.
:applause::applause::applause:
well put
However I think there is a 3rd option, Jon Kefuss' work suggests that you could pull it off by grafting and using cells/virgins as, and that means as long as you have a large eunff sample size to select a breeder from (maybe by working in a group) you could graft and requeen and get some trait contoral.

From a Dee Lusby Artical
The strongest tool that a beekeeper has for controlling colony genetics is the grafting needle. Colony characteristics that are favorable to a particular beekeeping operation or are adapted for a specific geographic area can be increased by grafting queens from colonies that possess the desired traits. By grafting their own queens, beekeepers can create lines of bees tailored for the conditions of their apiary sites and beekeeping practices.
https://beesource.com/point-of-view...ng-for-queens-with-shorter-development-times/

but for "some" reason beekeepers don't seem to like to work in groups, this leaves the little guy with no choice but to requeen regularly with purched genetics or to accept the random winds of change
 
#1,228 ·
However I think there is a 3rd option...
MSL:

Thank you for your input. I sincerely appreciate your reply, and you are likely on to something.

While researching Brother Adam, I ran-across the following genome sequencing research from last year that which noted, "A phylogenetic analysis, suggested that the matriline ‘Buckfast bee’ has remained most closely related to the A. mellifera ligustica race from which it originated in 1917, despite being cross-bred with many other A. mellifera races over the past 100 years."

Meaning (as Brother Adam knew) the matriline exerts a significantly greater influence on the resultant genetic cross such that even after over 100 years, "The genetic distance between the ‘Buckfast bee’ and A. m. ligustica mitochondrial genome was 0.00036, which corresponds well to the genetic distance generally observed within A. mellifera subspecies."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1450660

Text Line Font Diagram Parallel


p.s. Dr. John Kefuss is next on my reading list...
 
#1,231 ·
I suggest that the A. mellifera ligustica natural tracheal mite resistance skewed the matriline, and as with mitochondrial DNA as it doesn't matter if you have a "yellow" mother mated for 200 generations with "dark" drones and your "dark" yourself.. the mitochondrial DNA comes back as "yellow"

in modern context lets look at Kirk Webster's- Apimondia 2019 presentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFD2jD0B67k
He suggests trachea mites selected for booming spring hives and made his genetics "stronger"
I suggest, just like Brother Adam, TM selected his stock for the natural (ligustica) Resistance and associated traits of early build up and large population that comes with it .
 
#1,233 ·
... in modern context lets look at Kirk Webster's- Apimondia 2019 presentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFD2jD0B67k
MSL:

That is a great gem of a video- thank you for sharing this. It was a real paradigm shift for me to consider seeing pests as a positive selection mechanism.

It seems his talk might be summed up by his observations of the work of Sir Albert Howard:

"By the end of his time in India, Howard was convinced that insect pests and diseases should never be viewed as enemies or just something to be wantonly destroyed. Instead, they should always be viewed as friends and allies, welcome in small numbers, and only exploding in population when a certain balance of Nature has been violated."

https://kirkwebster.com/some-problems-of-health-and-disease-in-beekeeping-and-agriculture/

Thanks again for sharing the video.

Russ
 
#1,232 ·
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1450660?scroll=top&needAccess=true

Quote from this study:
"Due to the large amount of cross-breeding with many different races, the ancestral lineage of the Buckfast bee remains unclear. "

This is something which can be checked from Brother Adams pedigrees, but I have always thought that he did all of his crossings into his main stock in the way that grafts were made form the original stock and the new combination ( after 10 years of crossing and culling) was introduced from drone side.

Study result confirms this.
 
#1,234 ·
Study result confirms this.
Thank you, Juhani. Your response helped me to better understand your previous post.

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that the study simply helps to confirm that Brother Adam made subsequent cross-breeding introductions to the Buckfast on the drone side as a rule.

By doing so, the mitochondrial genome was retained but the overall new genetic signature now incorporated the new genetics.

Thanks again for your input.

Russ
 
#1,235 ·
It was a real paradigm shift for me to consider seeing pests as a positive selection mechanism.
To be clear it was my point to counter kirks position that his bee got stronger from TM selecting for strength and early spring buildup

I see it as simply his genetics shifting to Itailan do to there natural Resistance, and bringing the outher traites that have made them "the bee" to have for centyrys along for the ride.
At 12min in he points out that varroa slects for a very different kind of hive, small cluster, slow to build up etc
There are lessons here.
He bought improved genetics and then weened his operation off treatments over several years, one section at a time as he grafted and did controlled mating to adjest the lines to fit his area and needs.

His queen rearing operation went TF right of the bat with nonslect stock... all the spliting and brood breaks make this a common occurance.. and while they were TF queens, they would not hold up in a full sized production hive
 
#1,236 ·
At 12min in he points out that varroa slects for a very different kind of hive, small cluster, slow to build up etc
There are lessons here.
Good point, MSL. I did pick-up on his commentary regarding the difference in colony dynamics from the tracheal mite to the varroa mite but failed to recognize the obvious correlation is not necessarily causation aspect of these selection pressures.

While my understanding is admittedly limited, it does seem plain that there are various mechanisms at work in the honeybees' defense response to varroa which might ultimately manifest themselves as a different 'best' based on a specific locale and virus profile.

Thanks again for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ
 
#1,240 · (Edited)
“The notion that a bee native to a particular habitat must of necessity be the best for that region is based on fallacy.” [p. 93]
While that is is true of a natural population, In managed bees local stock is usually better.. (If such stock exzests, its questionable if it does in many parts of the US do to constant import of packages/nus to replace losses do to little propagation of the stock that lives)
To that end The Pan-European Genotype-Environment-Interactions Experiment https://coloss.org/accomplishments/the-gei-experiment/
@greg, take note that the local adaption was not irrelevant to mite in this case

Here he is underscoring the point that Nature is selecting for local survival utilizing the genetic resources at its disposal and that while this local adaptation will ultimately converge to the optimum result available based on the resources at its disposal, this result is likely far from the optimum result that could be attained if more genetic resources were available.
"Developed by the hand of man" *snip* "you have to be ruthless" Brother Adam on selection, The monk and the honey bee https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Zx1CdWctt_3Bfdf6rPQg20MeW8SRN-R

You have hit on the truth of bee genetics
Nature is not going to reliably select for us and in many cases the local bees in our area may not have the genetic tool kit for best results.
 
#1,242 ·
Nature is not going to reliably select for us and in many cases the local bees in our area may not have the genetic tool kit for best results.
Great post, MSL. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to watch the 'Monk and the Honeybee' videos- very enjoyable and insightful.

The thing that intrigues me about local genetics is that while they may not be adequate to suit our purposes, the opposite might also be true and one can't really know with certainty either way until it is put to the 'acid test'.

The other thing that I appreciate is that the US is in many ways uniquely suited to see some of the various colony-level responses to varroa express themselves given the vast breadth of genetic material here, our wide geographic and climate differences and the freedom to experiment. I for one am excited for what the future might hold for resistant stocks.
 
Top