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Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

216K views 3K replies 67 participants last post by  Litsinger 
#1 ·
Squarepeg suggested that I chronicle my efforts in treatment-free beekeeping- and after considering it, I thought it might be helpful in the future.

Though I have little (o.k. very little) to offer thus far, I thought it might be helpful to outline the perspectives of a rank amateur that might be helpful in the future to those just starting out.

A brief introduction- I am pushing 40 and my wife and six (count 'em six) children live on a small farm we bought a year-and-a-half ago in Western Kentucky (Climate Zone 7a) that is predominantly mixed hardwood forest and is surrounded by a mix of large row-crop areas, smaller pasture areas and numerous small woodlots along fence rows, at the back of fields and along the numerous creeks and watersheds that feed into the Clarks River.

I kept bees as a youngster in New Mexico prior to varroa becoming the scourge it now is (never mind small hive beetles), and gave it up while going to college, marrying, starting a career and raising a family- but getting back into beekeeping has always been in "the plan".

While preparing to get back into beekeeping, I happened upon "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping" and it opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out there practicing apicultural husbandry without resorting to any of the myriad chemical options currently available. This idea was appealing and intrigued me, so I read everything I could get my hands on relative to the current streams of thought in the Treatment-Free realm and I jumped-in last winter with little experience and boundless optimism. Based on what I read, here are the most fundamental decisions/goals I made:

1. Standardize around all eight-frame medium equipment for both broodboxes and supers.
2. Utilize screened IPM bottom boards with small-hive beetle trays.
3. Refrain from queen excluders - i.e. "unlimited" broodnest.
4. Source "regressed" bees and utilize all 4.9 mm foundation.
5. Employ Housel positioning.
6. Refrain from treatments of any kind (o.k. so some might call SHB trays and/or supplemental feeding treatments, but I digress).
7. Seek to get new package starts to five boxes (8 frame mediums mind you) of drawn comb and stores by the end of the season by feeding to support brooding / wax production.

While I will save my observations from this year for a subsequent post, I imagine many of your experienced beekeepers can already anticipate many of them. I made enumerable mistakes this year (which I hope to outline too). In short, here is how the year went (so far):

1. Installed two 3# packages of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation in mid April.
2. Caught two swarms in early May.
3. Made two nucs in early July (one of my many mistakes).
4. Gathered-up an usurpation swarm from one of the hived swarms in late August and installed it in one of the struggling nucs (one of my few successes).
5. Watched both packages explode like gangbusters only to crash-and-burn due to varroa in Mid-November and early December respectively (I apologize for the mite bombs that I released).

At this juncture, I am simply hoping earnestly that some of the swarmed stock that remains in my yard will make it through the winter. In follow-up posts, I will outline the most important lessons-learned (which will be obvious to you experienced beekeepers) and follow this up with my goals for this coming year in deference to Squarepeg's judicious pattern of doing so.

In closing for now, I still have little experience, but what little I gained came at the cost of a now cautious optimism. I am still enthralled with these amazing creatures and consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to interact with them and the sage souls around here who keep them.

Russ

p.s. While riding with my third daughter (age 7) recently, I asked her what she wanted to do/be when she grew up. She thought about it for a moment, got a sheepish look on her face, and suddenly got very quiet. When I gently pressed her to tell me what was on her mind she said, "Dad, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't want to be a beekeeper when I grow up."
 
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#1,066 ·
In a really interesting essay entitled, "Evolution Unleashed", Dr. Kevin Laland attempts to make the case for "...extended evolutionary synthesis (EES). A central issue is whether what happens to organisms during their lifetime – their development – can play important and previously unanticipated roles in evolution. The orthodox view has been that developmental processes are largely irrelevant to evolution, but the EES views them as pivotal."

https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory

While the entire article is well worth the read in my humble opinion, some of the more noteworthy analogies he offers are as follows:

"...but there is no getting away from the fact that the inheritance of acquired characteristics really does happen."

"Imagine a dog-walker (the genes) struggling to retain control of a brawny mastiff (human culture). The pair’s trajectory (the pathway of evolution) reflects the outcome of the struggle. Now imagine the same dog-walker struggling with multiple dogs, on leashes of varied lengths, with each dog tugging in different directions. All these tugs represent the influence of developmental factors, including epigenetics, antibodies and hormones passed on by parents, as well as the ecological legacies and culture they bequeath."

"These extra-genetic kinds of inheritance give organisms the flexibility to make rapid adjustments to environmental challenges, dragging genetic change in their wake – much like a rowdy pack of dogs."

"The way that genes are expressed to produce an organism’s phenotype – the actual characteristics it ends up with – is affected by chemicals that attach to them. Everything from diet to air pollution to parental behaviour can influence the addition or removal of these chemical marks, which switches genes on or off. Usually these so-called ‘epigenetic’ attachments are removed during the production of sperm and eggs cells, but it turns out that some escape the resetting process and are passed on to the next generation, along with the genes. This is known as ‘epigenetic inheritance’, and more and more studies are confirming that it really happens."

"If evolution is not to be explained solely in terms of changes in gene frequencies; if previously rejected mechanisms such as the inheritance of acquired characteristics turn out to be important after all; and if organisms are acknowledged to bias evolution through development, learning and other forms of plasticity – does all this mean a radically different and profoundly richer account of evolution is emerging? No one knows: but from the perspective of our adapting dog-walker, evolution is looking less like a gentle genetic stroll, and more like a frantic struggle by genes to keep up with strident developmental processes."
 
#1,069 ·
Good observation, Michael. In the article the author briefly touches on this by noting:

"This sort of behaviour is clearly manifest in scientific debates over evolution. Take the idea that new features acquired by an organism during its life can be passed on to the next generation. This hypothesis was brought to prominence in the early 1800s by the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who used it to explain how species evolved. However, it has long been regarded as discredited by experiment – to the point that the term ‘Lamarckian’ has a derogatory connotation in evolutionary circles, and any researchers expressing sympathy for the idea effectively brand themselves ‘eccentric’. The received wisdom is that parental experiences can’t affect the characters of their offspring."

He then goes on to briefly explain his position by outlining:

"Let’s return to the almond-fearing mice [referenced in the introductory comments of the article]. The inheritance of an epigenetic mark transmitted in the sperm is what led the mice’s offspring to acquire an inherited fear. In 2011, another extraordinary study reported that worms responded to exposure to a nasty virus by producing virus-silencing factors – chemicals that shut down the virus – but, remarkably, subsequent generations epigenetically inherited these chemicals via regulatory molecules (known as ‘small RNAs’). There are now hundreds of such studies, many published in the most prominent and prestigious journals. Biologists dispute whether epigenetic inheritance is truly Lamarckian or only superficially resembles it, but there is no getting away from the fact that the inheritance of acquired characteristics really does happen."
 
#1,074 ·
Bear in mind that the para-dichlorobenzene product is often refered to as moth ice crystals. I have never seen it in ball form, only the napthalene product which would be really bad for the bees. Make sure you know what you are buying!
 
#1,075 ·
GOOD catch, JW. This was an editorial slip-up on my part, so I am grateful you caught this!

Here is George's actual recommendations for storing supers:

"The chemical you want (NO SUBSTITUTES) is PDB which stands for para-dichloro-benzene. It is a white crystalline material that sublimes (turns from solid to gas bypassing the liquid stage) at high room temperature. It has two common uses that you see quite often: it is the better type of moth balls to keep the moths out of Grandad's bedroom winter rug and it keeps moths out of Grandmothers winter lamb wool coat while hanging in the summer hot attic. It is also used as a 99% concentrate formed brick as a deodorant in men' urinals in restrooms You can buy PDB from the bee supply houses for about $2.50/pound + shipping; or any hardware store should have it if they sell rugs or urinals, and even the Giant and Safeway grocery stores sell it. BUT READ THE FINE PRINT TO MAKE SURE THE PRODUCT IS PDB (paradichlorobenzene) AND NOT SOME PETROLEUM PRODUCT. It is much easier to use the small crystals than pieces of a big solid block, so I prefer the crystals for rugs or clothes rather than the urinal block which I have to break up with a hammer. Now there is NO TRICK to its use - just exactly follow my directions. Fit a super with frames into an upside down hive top, add a second super of frames, put 2-3 teaspoons of PDB crystals on a 8x11 piece of paper and set that paper on top of the frames of super #2, on supers 3 and 4 put another piece of paper with 2-3 teaspoons of PDB crystals on top of frames in super #4, repeat for supers 5&6. Put a Hive top or board on the topmost super and seal it on with masking tape. Now take masking tape and seal the crack all way around between supers. When the crystals of PDB turn into gas, it is HEAVIER than AIR, so it goes down towards the floor; but it performs all of this in a sealed unit with masking tape. Since wax moths are a warm weather critter, they are not active in cold weather. Hence, make this stack of sealed supers with PDB in your barn, your garden shed, your carport, your outdoor porch, or your cool basement - but the colder the better. I do this on August 15th (when I install Menthol on the bees), and I repeat it about October 1st when I put my winter Apistan strips on my bees for 8 weeks. I sometimes have to repeat it again about the time I start feeding 1:1 sugar syrup which is about February 15th. When I install supers for next years crop on April 15 of every year, I break open these sealed up supers 3-4 days in advance of 4/15 and let them air out in the sun and breezes. YOU HAVE PRESERVED YOUR PRICELESS POSSESSION, DRAWN COMB; AND YOU CAN ALMOST FORGET ALL THAT FOUNDATION TROUBLE!"

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2003_May_-_The_Dos_and_Donts_of_Harvesting_Honey.html
 
#1,080 · (Edited)
Russ,
Are these your own pictures?
Doing of your own bees?
Just making sure I see what I think I see.

PS: this is a very cool scope; affordable too, if important to have.
My apologies- these photos are from Ms. Morgan based on her evaluations of Kentucky and Ohio feral stock. I've added this scope to my Christmas wish list.

One other thing she pointed out that was counter-intuitive to me- it is better to use a dark background to view the mites on. Last winter I used a white background thinking this would provide greater contrast- so this is good to know for this winter.
 
#1,085 ·
Based in part on the success of folks like Squarepeg, CLong and others I decided to experiment with adding some insulation above the inner cover this winter.

As luck would have it, a friend of mine had two 4' x 8' sheets of 1" thick Styrofoam he didn't need so I spent most of the afternoon yesterday cutting them out.

My idea as of now (and still subject to change) is to retain the existing screened inner covers I have on the Langstroth colonies, insert a piece of Correx above this and then insert the insulation board above that. For my particular covers, this equates into sheets slightly shy of 12-1/4" wide x 18-3/8" long such that they fit very snugly.

While I was at it, I went ahead and cut out sheets of insulation for the Warre boxes and the three (3) ten-frame Langstroth set-ups I have for future use.

The attached photos show the general idea: upper entrance, screened inner cover, Correx sheet and 1" foam. I am hopeful that the maintenance of the upper entrance will mitigate the potential for condensation build-up on the now more highly insulated lid.

Furniture Table Wood Chest Plywood
Furniture Table Wood Chest Plywood
Product Wood Floor Hardwood Tile
 
#1,086 ·
russ
My first year I did two inch above the inter cover. I then got lazy and just started incorporating the foam into my telescoping lids and leaving them on all the time.

It is a mixed bag cause I had to paint the foam so the sun did not disintegrate the foam and I don't paint anything. They still get beat up a bit being on the outside but seem like they are going to last a while and once there, it is one more thing I no longer have to think about doing.

Except when I put a sugar block on the hive, I do not have an upper entrance. I am not for or against them, I just do what I do.

I do like foam better then quilt boxes and have more confidence in them (feeling not science).

I did have one hive that had an inch of water on top of the plywood telescoping cover that would run off every time I inspected and the bees lived through that. So I do believe that the walls being colder then the top does help decide where the condensation in a hive will be if the top is insulated.

Good luck with the find of the insulation. That would have fit great in the "what have you scrounged today" thread.

You can give us a report come spring.
Cheers
gww
 

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#1,087 ·
I then got lazy and just started incorporating the foam into my telescoping lids and leaving them on all the time.

It is a mixed bag cause I had to paint the foam so the sun did not disintegrate the foam and I don't paint anything. They still get beat up a bit being on the outside but seem like they are going to last a while and once there, it is one more thing I no longer have to think about doing.
GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate it. When you review the recent Derek Mitchell research, it seems that leaving the insulation in full time might be the best overall for the colony- though it does seem that having the screened inner covers gets the nectar in the supers capped quicker.

Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?
 
#1,088 · (Edited)
russ
Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?
I can't really say. My first year a mouse made a nest on top of one of the foams and right under the telescoping lid. I had read a couple of things that the bees might chew on the foam before using it but noticed no real problems. What ever the reason I did it, it probably made sense to me at the time. I don't have screened inter covers either. So no top entrance or screens anywhere.

I remember some big discussions on ventilation on here and moderator Rader Sidetrack used to argue that bees could control the air movement best if they had only one hole in the hive to move the air through. I guess it made an impact on my thinking. I ran with it, my only mitigating action was to add a slatted rack on bottom to help ventilate (till I run out of them and get tired of building). It was my attempt to get as close to bee perfect as I could come up to in the beginning with my low knowledge. When it worked, I then just wanted it to be automated so it was a one time thing, ergo the insulation on top of the hive.

This was mostly my thinking on my actions as they happened and I just never changed it when my bees were not dying. I never tried anything else and so only know how this works.

I take that back, I did try for a small amount of time with no slatted rack and with one and the bearding was affected.


I have not had issues with honey getting capped. I have had issues with brood in the supers.:)
Cheers
gww

Ps I also read that bees won't chew the foam if you wrap it in saran wrap. I did read that some foams may have poison in them.

PS PS I also don't buy anything and so some of my tops only have one inch. I do salvage stuff that my relatives throw away which is the only reason my hives have any insulation. I like it though.
 

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#1,089 ·
russ
Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?
One other problem I could see with the insulation on the inside is that it could interfere with decisions like feeding sugar water if needed. My inter covers do have the hole in the center that I can set a quart jar on.

I like the ideal of only touching the insulation one time and one time only.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,090 ·
I like the ideal of only touching the insulation one time and one time only.
GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I do appreciate your input. You make some good arguments against having the insulation on the inside, and I recognize from your responses that one's hive set-up and management approach might have a lot to do with the most appropriate location for the insulation. Specifically:

1. If one does not use inner covers or has inner covers with a hole in the middle for a jar feeder or bee escape, putting the insulation on the inside might require provisions to keep the bees from chewing on the insulation.

2. If one plans on removing and reinstalling the insulation annually as a part of their management, provisions to make this effort more efficient are likely in order.

3. Alternately, if one plans to leave it in place year-round, it likely makes the most sense to attempt to incorporate it above the inner or outer cover (or maybe even within) like you have done.

I realize that you've already thought through all this, but for us newbees I thought it might be helpful to regurgitate what I think you are saying in your responses.

As always, I do appreciate your input.

Russ

p.s. Are those long Langstroth hives in the last photo you posted? I may have missed it, but I don't recall you talking about those.
 
#1,091 · (Edited)
russ
p.s. Are those long Langstroth hives in the last photo you posted? I may have missed it, but I don't recall you talking about those.
When I first started, my goal was to get into bees for free. I used all the stuff I ever had that was left over from previous project or remodel jobs. Those long langs took less resources to build and I could use thick or thin lumber. In the end, the closest I came to putting bees in them was to put a little lemon grass oil in them and cross my fingers. They have turned out to be great homes for those big red wasp. They are however a godsend to have around my hives as they make great tables and I throw frames on top of them when I need to use an empty so I can feed. I use them when I am fixing wonky comb. I store supers on top of them so I don't always have to run back to the house when adding space.

Cheers
gww
Ps These are all old pictures from things I have posted on here. I took some pictures yesterday to show one of my feeding processes but my phone will no longer transfer to my computer with a usb cord. I never was good at taking many pictures but guess my new picture posting days are over untill this phone craps out and I am forced to get a different one that works.
 
#1,092 ·
I took some pictures yesterday to show one of my feeding processes but my phone will no longer transfer to my computer with a usb cord. I never was good at taking many pictures but guess my new picture posting days are over untill this phone craps out and I am forced to get a different one that works.
GWW:

Thank you for the reply- maybe you'll get some bees to move into those long Langs this Spring. I would be interested to hear how that works out for you, but it seems that is how Dr. Leo Sharashkin keeps his, and he is somewhat in your neck of the woods, right?

Regarding your phone- can you e-mail the pictures to yourself?
 
#1,093 ·
I finally made my way through the recently published ‘Virus Dynamics in Naturally Varroa Resistant Honeybee Populations’ research prepared as a doctoral thesis by Mr. Srinivas Thaduri at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. It is a heavy read, and for someone like me who does not have a background in biology I am certain I am unable to fully-appreciate all of it.

As described at the outset of the paper:

“The aim of this thesis was to investigate the role of the viral and bacterial microbiome in the enhanced survival of the mite-resistant (MR) honeybees on Gotland, to compare the role of virus tolerance and resistance in other naturally selected mite-resistant honeybee populations, similar to the Gotland population, and to unravel individual level virus-host interactions in honeybees.”

I didn’t know what a ‘microbiome’ was, so I had to look it up. Per Wikipedia:

Microbiota are, "...ecological communities of commensal, symbiotic and pathogenic microorganisms found in and on all multicellular organisms studied to date from plants to animals. Microbiota includes bacteria, archaea, protists, fungi and viruses.”

In layman’s terms, I understand this to mean that the chief aim of the study was to evaluate the bacteria and viruses inhabiting the now-famous Gotland bee population against a non-mite resistant control population to see if there were any discernible differences.

From the report, they concluded:

“…the results of this thesis present strong evidence that naturally adapted mite-resistant honeybees have also adapted, through a natural selection process, tolerance and resistance to virus infections at both the colony and individual level. The bacterial microbiome did not appear to play a role in the enhanced survival of Swedish mite-resistant honeybees but more studies are required to investigate potential bacteriavirus interactions on honeybee health.”

In other words, there were no statistically-relevant differences in the microbiome of the Gotland bees versus the control and that the results suggest that increased survival is at least partially as a result of increased tolerance to the pathogenic bacteria and viruses rather than a different composition of pathogens in the Gotland population versus the control.

A few pull-quotes that I found interesting:

“In social insects like honeybees, it is also important to distinguish between tolerance and resistance at the individual level and at the colony level. A colony containing resistant bees is likely to be resistant at the colony level. The best example is mite-resistant colonies from Gotland and Avignon, which illustrates how varroa resistance (i.e. inhibiting mite’s reproduction) at the individual level lead to the resistance at the colony level. By contrast, colonies composed of tolerant individuals [are] at least also tolerant at the colony level, but may also be resistant at the colony level.”

“… we found Lake Sinai virus and Apis rhabdovirus-1, including previously known honey bee viruses, in Swedish honey bees. Further molecular studies showed that Gotland MR bees have developed a colony-level resistance to these viruses, and tolerance to Deformed Wing Virus (DWV), the virus most commonly associated with mite infestation. Secondly, differences in the bacterial microbiome between MR and mite-susceptible (MS) bees were studied using the 16S rDNA, but the results indicated little differences between MR and MS bees throughout the season. Finally, individual level susceptibility of MR and MS honey bees to oral virus infection was tested for DWV virus and Acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV). The results demonstrate that DWV and ABPV infection dynamics were nearly identical in MR and MS bees, but that bees from the MR honeybee populations had significantly lower mortality rates than bees from the MS population.”

“The most interesting observation in this study was a clear difference between the MR and the MS bees in the survival rates of the virus-inoculated adult bees. In both DWV and ABPV inoculated bees there was a significantly higher survival rate for MR bees than for MS bees, both at 48 hpi and 72 hpi. Despite having near identical DWV and ABPV viral levels across the infection time courses, MS adults had significantly higher mortality than MR adults. This suggests that host tolerance, instead of resistance, is an important component of the naturally adapted survival mechanisms of this population.”

“Gotland mite-resistant bees appear to have developed a colony-level resistance to ARV-1, LSV, SBV, and BQCV and tolerance to DWV.”

“A non-metric multidimensional scaling (NMDS) analysis showed no great difference in bacterial community composition between the MR and MS colonies at each sampling occasion.”

“Varroa infestation had a significant effect on virus susceptibility; higher colony-level varroa infestation was associated with greater susceptibility of adult bees to both DWV and ABPV infection.”

“Overall, this thesis reveals that Gotland mite-resistant honeybees at the colony level have adapted virus tolerance and survive better with high levels of DWV. Further, mite-resistant honeybees at the individual level are also tolerant to orally inoculated DWV and ABPV.”
 
#1,095 ·
Is your phone equipped with Wi-Fi? If so, this would be an option even if you don't have a data plan.

I only mentioned Dr. Sharashkin because on his website he has plans for how to build Long Langstroth hives that look an awful lot like the ones you built- I thought maybe you used this:

https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml
 
#1,096 · (Edited)
russ
Truth be known, I got the ideal from michael bushe's web site. It mentioned about 30 frames or so. I only wanted to build medium frames and so made these medium size and around 34 frames or so. I used the free langstroth plans off of this site to come up with the inside dimensions.
I was building traps and lang hives and such till I ran out of material.

I didn't know what I was doing and had to put a rail around the top after built, to give the bees bee space on top. Pictures got the membership of this forum to suggest this.

I was over confident and did not buy bees cause I thought I would catch some in the twelve traps I had put out. I didn't catch anything and was a year behind (not that I have any schedule or ambition). The next year I found some one local to sell me a hive and ended up catching three swarms before I received the bought hive. I combined two of the swarms cause they were small and ended up going into winter with three hives which is the picture that I posted earlier about the bearding and slatted rack.
Cheers
gww

PS As for the study in the post that I missed. I always find it interesting that the study does find a difference but never are able to attribute the difference to specific things that are happening. That is why I always sorta talk back to the guys that are smarter then me on genetics and how something is impossible and will never happen. I don't know how it is happening but there is too much info for someone to say that it does not happen and happen really fast and not over thousands of years. I do think at times that some of it can be learned as well as genetic. We have learned to wash our hands as an example and somebody learned that willow was like aspirin.
 
#1,100 ·
I always find it interesting that the study does find a difference but never are able to attribute the difference to specific things that are happening.
GWW:

Great reply- you seem to always be able to make lemonade out of lemons and I imagine that is at least part of the secret to your TF success :).

I agree with you that the data seem to suggest that any sustained resistance at the colony level is very likely due to the cumulative result of several different internal (and maybe external factors - i.e. isolation) rather than just one thing.

This also reminds me to temper any expectations when one finds evidence of a particular identified resistance mechanism (i.e. mite biting) understanding that this in-and-of-itself many not necessarily portend success long-term.

Keep up the good work- I always appreciate your input.

Russ
 
#1,097 ·
>...and somebody learned that willow was like aspirin.

Actually that's backward. All people through all of time have used willow bark for pain, fever and swelling best we can tell. Felix Hoffmann at Bayer discovered that they could synthesize something similar quite easily and called it Aspirin. So somebody (Bayer) learned that Aspirin was like willow bark... or that acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) had the same basic effects as salicylic acid (the active ingredient in willow bark). Bayer liked the "in" suffix on their inventions. When Bayer figured out how to make morphine twice as effective (and addictive) they named it Heroin. Salicylates are an interesting family. Methyl salicylate is wintergreen. Magnesium salicylate is Doan’s pills. Bismuth salicylate is Pepto-bismol. Choline salicylate is the pain killer Dentogel.
 
#1,101 ·
Felix Hoffmann at Bayer discovered that they could synthesize something similar quite easily and called it Aspirin. So somebody (Bayer) learned that Aspirin was like willow bark... or that acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) had the same basic effects as salicylic acid (the active ingredient in willow bark).
The guy who claimed credit, Arthur Eichengrun, for stabilizing aspirin when working for bayer ended up in a concentration camp with out any of the money.
Gentlemen:

This is an interesting history- here is a brief biography of Arthur Eichengrun which touches on this question:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/scienc...pictures-and-press-releases/eichengrun-arthur

That said, I think GWW's point was touching on two themes (and please correct me if I have misinterpreted):

1. The idea of whether bees can 'learn' and if they can 'learn' can they pass this knowledge on to subsequent generations?

2. Related to (1)- More generally: are relatively rapid adaptations (phenotypical and/or behavioral) possible within bees in response to changing pathogen profiles?

I have quickly learned that I do not have enough background nor aptitude to really speak with any declarative statements regarding these issues of genetics, evolution, adaptation and the like but I do find the research and discussions on these themes fascinating.
 
#1,099 ·
>The guy who claimed credit, Arthur Eichengrun, for stabilizing aspirin when working for bayer ended up in a concentration camp with out any of the money.

I had not heard that, but it's quite possible. Bayer was definitely in with the ruling party and would probably discredit a Jew in favor of a German...
 
#1,102 ·
Russ
I have quickly learned that I do not have enough background nor aptitude to really speak with any declarative statements regarding these issues of genetics, evolution, adaptation and the like but I do find the research and discussions on these themes fascinating.
This is the reason I go more on feeling then knowledge. The knowledge is almost always above my head even when broken down into layman's terms.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,110 ·
>Throw away any of those bee books that you have that were written prior to 1990, no matter how famous the author was, because you can no longer keep bees "like Daddy Kept bees", and you must use the new found management techniques that have been scientifically PROVEN during these past 18 years in order to be successful today.”

Bees haven't changed... some of my bee books are 200 years old... a few, though reprints, are even older...
 
#1,112 · (Edited)
Bees haven't changed... some of my bee books are 200 years old... a few, though reprints, are even older...
Michael:

I sincerely appreciate your feedback. As a self-confessed bibliophile I share your love and admiration for the accumulated wisdom of our beekeeping forefathers. While George is not here to refute me, I expect his frequent reference to 'throwing away' books from before 1990 was somewhat tongue-in-cheek in his attempt to drive the point home that we should continue to learn as emerging threats and new research bring new challenges and opportunities to keeping bees successfully. I say this in part based on the fact that he often wrote with respectful veneration for Reverend Langstroth and François Huber in particular.
 
#1,111 ·
The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall. I put them on and immediately the scavengers came flying. The bees started dragging sugar granules out the front door and attracted hordes of robber bees, flies and yellow jackets. I eventually got smart and blocked the front door. Then it rained and that stopped the worst of it. I have squashed a few dozen yellow jackets.

Opened up the hives today and of the original 4 pounds apiece one hive has eaten, stored or disposed of maybe 3 pounds. The other maybe two. I have 4 hives here at home and all four will be needing a lot of sugar. Very wet and cool and not much foraging going on this last whole month.
 
#1,115 ·
The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall.
AR1:

I am really glad you posted this- and let me just say I made the very same mistake last year with two late season nucs I attempted (and failed spectacularly at) to make up.

So the admonition to myself in this (and numerous other failures thus far) is as Zig Ziglar famously opined, "If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Please always feel welcome to share what you are learning in your apiary!
 
#1,121 · (Edited)
ar1
The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall. I put them on and immediately the scavengers came flying. The bees started dragging sugar granules out the front door and attracted hordes of robber bees, flies and yellow jackets. I eventually got smart and blocked the front door. Then it rained and that stopped the worst of it. I have squashed a few dozen yellow jackets.

Opened up the hives today and of the original 4 pounds apiece one hive has eaten, stored or disposed of maybe 3 pounds. The other maybe two. I have 4 hives here at home and all four will be needing a lot of sugar. Very wet and cool and not much foraging going on this last whole month.
I do have a question for you? What did you put in the sugar blocks besides water and sugar?

I put had put sugar blocks on every year before now on oct first. I even put a little vinegar in some of them (not much though). The bees did carry some of the sugar out and I have posted pictures of it in years past. I have never seen interest from other bees or bugs on what was piled up in front of the hives. I also do not think they ever got rid of big amounts and am thinking they more took out the lose stuff. My blocks were big though. I never really seen bees really go to hard work on the blocks till they started raising brood in spring when they could really start going through it. I was putting 12 to 15 lbs blocks on at the beginning of oct with the knowledge that I would lose a little but confident that once done, I was good for the year. I would take the sugar blocks off around april and there was usually some left and it seemed that the bees ate the sugar block before finishing the stores that were in comb.

I wonder if you were adding some smell that created an interest from other pest and bees that were out side the hive?

Cheers
gww
 

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#1,124 ·
ar1


I do have a question for you? What did you put in the sugar blocks besides water and sugar?

I wonder if you were adding some smell that created an interest from other pest and bees that were out side the hive?

Cheers
gww
Sugar and a splash of vinegar. That's all.
All the bugs here this year are extra-hungry since they are not able to forage much. I put the sugar on so early because the hives are packed with bees who have nothing to do all day but eat. I can imagine them starving out before winter even starts.

I added sugar to the other two hives today, but made sure to tighten the entrances first. It still seems to be attracting yellow jackets, within a few minutes of the sugar going on. Next time no vinegar?
 
#1,126 ·
Ar1
I would maybe try no vinegar. I did have a few spoon fulls in most of mine but was scared of too much smell myself.
I have mentioned the only experience I have so far and so can only say good luck and that I still hope to hear how it goes for you.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,130 ·
Greg, my response was a little tongue in cheek. I did not truly doubt that he was familiar with the the Warre'. But, was suprised by the passage you quoted since that is exactly what Warre' was attempting to do.
 
#1,131 ·
Hi Russ
about the comment "Speaking of Warre, I had the opportunity to do my winter preps with the seven (7) Langstroth colonies in my yard. My experiment in nadiring was largely unfruitful."
What was your goal and what was the fruit you expected? I nadir often and it seems to do what I need. I mostly want the pollen under the honey in the top for spring. "Supering leaves it in the bottom. did you nadir with comb or foundation or foundation-less?
GG
 
#1,132 ·
What was your goal and what was the fruit you expected? I nadir often and it seems to do what I need. I mostly want the pollen under the honey in the top for spring. "Supering leaves it in the bottom. did you nadir with comb or foundation or foundation-less?
GG:

Good question. My hope had been to find a surefire way to get new drawn comb built without having to resort to extensive manipulations and create a logical means of systematic comb renewal. As such, I endeavored to adapt Abby Warre's method of adding an empty box to the very bottom of the stack in hopes the colonies would draw fresh comb in there.

While I am not yet ready to declare this effort a failure, my first attempt at nadiring in this fashion resulted in a one (1) out of seven (7) success rate, with the one (1) being augmented by pyramiding-down drawn comb from the brood nest fairly early in the season.

As a trial, I may experiment with Tim Rowe's 'Rose Hive' method next year to see if any more consistent results can be obtained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMcBiCcuC8w&list=PLhAXj-vNqBVlxEZIAjNqj2mYGgIeNEzTu
 
#1,134 ·
russ
My guess on the comb drawing. I think this is more a time of the year type thing. If the box is put on early and if the hive needs the space because they have filled what they have, they will swarm or start to use the space. If the space is baited with a comb, they might take to it better but I understand your goal of trying to just add the space and that being it.

On some of the hives, you added some drawn comb from a dead out. Those hives probably never had the need to draw comb.

My personal opinion would be to add the space next spring as early as possible and try it again. My bees did not draw near the comb that they did most years but they also started with more comb then I have had before. A few built past what they had and drew more and a few built up slower. In my case, it could have been that they had too much for the bee density (I had added comb of my extracted supers to my smaller hives in the fall) and they only built up to the comb. They may have also been distressed and not as healthy due to not treating them. Either way, I did not get as much comb drawn as when the hives were young.

I think if you try it again, the bees will either swarm or move down. If the ideal is to run the hives like warre and remove one third or so of the comb every year, I am thinking that lots of the bees will play along though maybe not all of them. If you go to the extra step and get a comb or two down there, I think your odds would go up but it might be worth it to not do that. It might work just good enough. I would like my space to be on, right before the first dandelion bloom.

You know that I don't know but I have read abbys book and do know what my year here was like as far as comb production was.

This is my best attempt with this discussion for what it is worth.
Cheers
gww
 
#1,136 ·
Russ, as for comb, it is getting, keeping, storing, protecting, recycling, using, all of it. Because it is your "inventory" Some has stores some don't etc.
I you use medium frames draw some as suppers, Extract. 4 or 5 a year is 40-50 frames. Realize if you grow comb count each year, you will either need to have increase, cull, or increase storage of the comb. How are you going to spend it?
 
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