Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ? - Page 53
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  1. #1041
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Does not matter to me, GG.
    I play the dice game.
    Somehow it works.

    Overall, the more we look at it, the more we understand how little we understand.
    With that, why bother?

    Lots of smart people say lots of smart words and yet they don't know much.

    Let it all work out mostly on its own.
    You propagate them and it works.
    Good stock (when proven) does help to move along.

    Interestingly, by now most people around me would have lost their bees without treating them (if they started at the same time I did).
    Pretty darn sure I will still have enough of my bees the next spring.
    But they will be rushing to buy more Southern, commercial packages again.
    Some people never learn, I guess.
    Greg, Repeat ability is a frontier I fear I cannot Scale. In any given year, I do not necessary know which way the virgin fly's and to What DCA she ends up in. Even if I had great results one year, "What if " the the primary drone area is logged, burns, has several dead outs due to severe winter, the Keeper moves , etc. So one needs to follow some "Basic principles" Grow Queens during the best times, use good stock , try to add drones, etc. But end of the day each of the eggs from the mother breeder Queen can be 1 of 12 or so paternal lines. Each drone can only breed one time, how many of which source and the weather is different day to day. I open Mate, so I may be out on a limb, But My opinion is I cannot ever get 2 queens to be exactually the same . Now If I did 50 from the same mother queen then yes several could be the same line, only if they fly the same path for mating and pick up the same ratio of drones from the same lines would it even be close. mathematically it is virtually impossible to open mate 2 identical queens. So a control and a test group would all essentially be different individuals. So one would need to state " setting the paternal linage of the Queen aside, O and setting aside the Drones she mated with" , Assuming the queens are the same we did such and such test. So how often do we read or hear, "if the hive has problems replace the queen" So in my mind I cannot see how these study's hold water. Until you can clone the queen and clone the drones and artificially mate them you have not a comparative test group. And As I do not wish to clone or artificially inseminate Bees, I am to remain a Skeptic of every study where the claim is to have a "control group" As the hive reflects the Queen and each one is unique, Its somewhat in the weeds at that point. So I may have to agree with you "some will some won't so what next" Split from the survivors, and spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.

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  3. #1042
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Greg, ...... Split from the survivors, and spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.
    For the most of us - this is how things are.
    Not much else you can do.

    Well, sharing/purchasing/importing promising stock into your location is one good thing to do.
    IF I did not bring in four (4) feral queens as quickly as I just could into my program - unsure where I would have been now - probably still chasing the swarms and trying to establish.
    So, in the absence of proven local stock, the necessity of importing and urgent propagating some outsider stock - priority #1.

    This season I feel less vulnerable.
    Lackluster swarm catch this year is not really a big deal for me thanks to sufficient overwintered resources.

    I think the TF members here should consider starting some material exchange of worthy quality.
    For sure, I have to thank one of the TF members on this forum for my bees.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #1043
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I only have the experience that I have. I have nothing to compare it to.
    ...
    Being totally honest, I would have to say I really don't know much and am trying to learn and at least doing a little observation and coming up with what I come up with till I learn more.
    ...
    Reading others experimentation and trying stuff your self to compare the results is the only way I know to go about bee keeping. That is what I think I am doing.
    Great points, GWW. I think most of us can completely relate to your sentiments, and I think being able to share these experiences and communicate with others who are working toward the same overarching goal is important. I am grateful for this forum (and by extension those who contribute) in that regard.

    Also, I would not sell yourself too short- while you might be the fortunate beneficiary of an excellent local genetic profile, you are also making good on it. If nothing else, your management approach in my mind serves as a reasonable starting point for folks in your region who wish to embark on an experiment in TF beekeeping.

    Thank you again for all your helpful contributions. I've learned a lot from you.

    Have a great weekend.

    Russ

  5. #1044
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    So Big Question here "What is the Control" ...Realize there are likely several paternal lines for each hive, and the control is out the window.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    So one needs to follow some "Basic principles" Grow Queens during the best times, use good stock, try to add drones, etc. ...
    spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.
    Gray Goose:

    Thank you for your astute replies- you are of course right, and as I thought through the implications of open polyandrous mating it became plain to me that even if you could define and establish parity in external outcomes (i.e. winter cluster size and relative mite load), it says little to nothing about the internal mechanics of what produced a given outcome. What is the famous statistical axiom, correlation is not causation?

    So I'm back to the drawing board. I'll start with the most basic principal- keep a few colonies alive this winter .

    Thanks again for your input- I really appreciate it.

    Have a great weekend.

    Russ

  6. #1045
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I think the TF members here should consider starting some material exchange of worthy quality.
    Makes good sense to me, GregV. Maybe even looking into the 48 hour queen cells like MSL has advocated for?

    It seems most of what I have read has suggested a 10 hour transport time as a reasonable upper limit.

  7. #1046
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    ....... I'll start with the most basic principal- keep a few colonies alive this winter . Russ
    I'd give it one more winter to my best TF stock (will make it three winters straight) and then.....
    Maybe we should indeed start talking material exchange with the interested folks involved.

    Added:
    I know all my bees have mites;
    incidentally, while pulling some honey off the best resource hive this season I found a young bee with a mite on it - just like that, by an accident;
    I also found a couple of DWV bees in my second best resource hive;
    the Zombee hive probably has tons of mites - there were few DWV bees in it as early as June; but only 2-3 cases that I found up to now, not tens and tens;
    ok, the Zombees are walking dead anyway - I already written them off (a nice surprise is always a welcome);

    so we'll see - if going by the "T" theory - most all of my bees will just crash and burn soon here (unless urgently and immediatelly treated);
    okay, letting them "crash and burn".
    Last edited by GregV; 09-13-2019 at 11:36 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #1047
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    ar1
    Seems late for a queen now. Not much time to make winter bees. You got to do what you got to do though. I would like to hear how that one goes. I also made one queen in july (which I thought was kinda late) but I sold the mother queen and some bees. You are aggressive. I hope it goes really good for you.
    Cheers
    gww
    It is late, but still lots of drones in the surrounding hives so they have some chance. If they requeen I'll feed the heck out of them. If not, they will get combined.

  9. #1048
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    AR1:

    Thank you for the update. It sounds like you have done very well in growing your apiary.

    I do hope you will continue to update us on your progress- is your plan to continue aggressively splitting your survivor stock or will you at some point aim for building some colony mass for surplus honey storage?

    Keep up the good work!

    Russ
    Next year will be mostly splitting. If that looks successful I will probably isolate a hive or two and try to get honey off them and skip the July split for those hives. So far these are not survivors and as far as I know nothing special as mite fighters. Just a random swarm that probably came from my neighbor's hive.

    Although I did enjoy watching them chase, bite and ball the hive beetles. I even saw one grab a beetle and fly away with it.

  10. #1049
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR1 View Post
    It is late, but still lots of drones in the surrounding hives so they have some chance. If they requeen I'll feed the heck out of them. If not, they will get combined.
    Drones are still a plenty.
    Me too - trying to mate an accidental late queen.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #1050
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AR1 View Post
    Although I did enjoy watching them chase, bite and ball the hive beetles. I even saw one grab a beetle and fly away with it.
    AR1:

    It sounds like you have a good game plan in mind- hopefully a few of your new colonies will show some resistance.

    I also enjoy watching them forcibly evicting SHBs, and it gives me sick satisfaction to hear them go 'crunch' underneath my hive tool...

  12. #1051
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Last year, I noticed that it was a full 45+ days after I saw the first evidence of goldenrod bloom (August 4th) until I saw bees working it on my place (September 16th).

    So this year I decided to take a closer look at what varieties of goldenrod bloom here locally, and what the bees will work.

    Using this excellent Field Museum guide (https://fieldguides.fieldmuseum.org/guides/guide/389), I discovered that we have at least six (6) goldenrod varieties which are common around here:

    Early Goldenrod
    Canada Goldenrod
    Riddell's Goldenrod
    Common Grass-Leaved Goldenrod
    Stiff Goldenrod
    Late Goldenrod

    As for this year, I observed the first goldenrod blooming on July 28th and did not see any bees working it until September 8th (Stiff Goldenrod).

    We now have a decent goldenrod flow going, and they are now working the Late Goldenrod heavily.

    Early Goldenrod.jpg Canada Goldenrod.jpg Riddells Goldenrod.jpg Common Grass-Leaved Goldenrod.jpg Late Goldenrod.jpg

  13. #1052
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    ...

    Using this excellent Field Museum guide (https://fieldguides.fieldmuseum.org/guides/guide/389), I discovered that we have at least six (6) goldenrod varieties which are common around here:
    Thanks for sharing!
    I was looking for a good photo identification guide.
    Indeed, Stiff Goldenrod is the one variety bees are working the hardest.
    I need to harvest the seeds and spread the Stiff Goldenrod around more.
    The other varieties I have not seen the bees working, even though there are lots of them all over here.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #1053
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Drones are still a plenty.
    Me too - trying to mate an accidental late queen.
    Dane County is about 90 miles due north of me, so the growing season ends about 2 weeks earlier. They have to mature, fly, mate and start brood. We shall see, just hoping for a late first frost but not expecting it this year.

  15. #1054
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    ar1
    I have no experience but have read that you need around three good brood cycles after the queen having been mated to get a good winter cluster. It just does not seem like there is time between now and frost for a queen that is not hatched yet. That is one reason I would be interested in how your hive looks next spring and if it makes it. I don't say it won't do well, just that it may be a good single experiment that the results of, would be interesting to know for my own management future. You are in a round about way, a slightly cooler neighbor of mine.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #1055
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Thanks for sharing!
    I was looking for a good photo identification guide.
    Glad to share, GregV. I am pleased to hear that it is helpful.

  17. #1056
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:

    3. One should super their colonies early in the season, all at once.
    Mr. Imirie begins his appeal with variations on this theme:

    "Maybe you are content with a colony production of only 40-50 pounds of honey made in April and May; but … my 10 year average yield got to be 132 pounds honey /colony in Maryland which has an average yield of only 29 pounds/colony."

    Knowing that most of us are interested in more surplus honey, he now begins to tell us how we too can have more surplus production (modifying the dates accordingly based on locale):

    "Put on your first super on April 1st, with NO queen excluder under it, and 14 days later, April 15th, make sure the queen is NOT in that first super, put a Queen Excluder under it, and add FOUR more supers of frames of DRAWN COMB on top of that first super ALL AT ONCE! Now your bees are ready to make you 3-4 full supers of capped honey for you to extract on July 4th."

    How does this work, you ask?

    "In Central Maryland (Baltimore-Washington, DC area), dandelions appear in late March or early April and this "sets the stage" for the up-coming nectar crop of black locust, tulip poplar, and of course, myriads of "wildflowers". Unfortunately, in comparison to other states, this April, May, and maybe early June is OUR ONLY SURPLUS HONEY CROP.

    THIS FACT is why you need 5 supers when you only get 2-3 full supers of honey! Without STORAGE SPACE for that THIN, WATERY nectar while the bees are trying very hard to EVAPORATE all that nectar water and ripen it into honey, they will SWARM due to LACK of space to store that nectar!

    Use DRAWN COMB and not foundation and have spare supplies ready to use if needed. WHAT happens when a STEADY nectar flow begins, which is normally black locust about April 15th to May 1st in Montgomery County? Almost over-night, the worker bees "shift gears" and change their program from swarming to nectar collecting. Now the foraging bees are finding nectar, bringing it home to the colony, and the nurse bees receive it, begin the ripening process of converting nectar into honey, storing it in cells, and capping that cell when the ripening process is complete. All honeybee minds are now on honey, and swarming is almost forgotten, PROVIDED THAT YOU HAVE PROVIDED ENOUGH SUPER SPACE IN ADVANCE to store all than thin nectar which is about 80% water until the bees get time to evaporate the water percentage down to about 16% now known as HONEY.

    Basically, 25 pounds of nectar makes only about 6 pounds of honey, and that ripening process may take only a few days, but if the humidity is high (always high in our area), ripening might take 10-20 days. in each of my apiaries, I have always had a SCALE hive that can be weighed EVERY night to see how much weight increase there is for each day. On a good nectar flow, a strong colony can bring in 25 pounds of nectar in ONE day or 50 pounds in 2 days.

    Ten 6 5/8" medium frames will be totally filled to hold that much nectar; and after ripening yield only about 12 pounds of honey and that process might take several days."


    So George concludes by saying,

    "Hence, don't be CHEAP, buy 5 medium supers, frames, and foundation for every colony!"

    While obviously there are quite a few vagaries and local accommodations to be made, and this advice maybe doesn't take the SHB pressures of today fully into account, it is interesting to me how the flow dynamics he describes could certainly be said of Western Kentucky (give a week or so) and it is reminiscent of Mr. Walt Wright's advice to, "...super optimistically".

  18. #1057
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    ar1
    I have no experience but have read that you need around three good brood cycles after the queen having been mated to get a good winter cluster. It just does not seem like there is time between now and frost for a queen that is not hatched yet. That is one reason I would be interested in how your hive looks next spring and if it makes it. I don't say it won't do well, just that it may be a good single experiment that the results of, would be interesting to know for my own management future. You are in a round about way, a slightly cooler neighbor of mine.
    Cheers
    gww
    Slightly cooler here. We hit -20F a few times last winter and January had many days below zero to -10F. May get a frost or two in September but not always. GregV's Dane County Wi is distinctly colder even though only 90 miles farther North.

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