Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ? - Page 49
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  1. #961
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Got to love it when a plan comes together.
    gww
    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Good job Russ.
    GWW and JW:

    Thank you both for the kind words. The reality is that I have much yet to learn and owe any and all of the current success to good folks like you two who have been kind enough to invest in my progress. I appreciate you both.

    One thing I can say with two trap-outs under my belt is that neither one went even remotely the way I planned so it has taught me that you have to be both persistent and willing to adapt to whatever contingencies come your way.

    Also, there is no doubt I have spent more in time, fuel and duct tape than either colony would be worth monetarily, so it is something I would recommend only if someone can derive intrinsic satisfaction in the process itself.

    Thank you both again for your generosity. Have a great weekend.

    Russ

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  3. #962
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Went by the trap-out today and I am ready to declare it a success. There are fresh eggs and zero bees in the transition. The tree cavity itself is also dead quiet.

    The comb they have drawn from the bottom of the hive-top feeder is impressive- they have almost completely filled the empty volume which is created by the portion of the male transition which projects into the inside of the hive body such that when I pull off the feeder I have four sections of comb of various lengths attached to the bottom of the feeder which run parallel with the frames and are beginning to fill with nectar, pollen and eggs. I would have taken a photo but I feared turning the feeder on its end and possibly destroying all their hard work- so you'll just have to take my word for it.

    Lots of pollen coming in and it appears they have established regular order within the trap-out, so my plan will be to bring them home next weekend after dusk.

    Attachment 50745
    Russ,

    As has already been said, great job! It will be fun to see how this hive performs going forward.

    This might be a little late, but have you seen this article?

    https://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-pr...e-left-behind/

  4. #963
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    .... so my plan will be to bring them home next weekend after dusk. Attachment 50745
    Congratulations!
    Good to have a trap-out expert in residence.
    Never know when need a consult.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #964
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    Russ,

    As has already been said, great job! It will be fun to see how this hive performs going forward.

    This might be a little late, but have you seen this article?

    https://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-pr...e-left-behind/
    CLong:

    Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it! I also appreciate you posting the article, as I had not seen this one.

    As one of the comments below the article stated, I fail to see any distinction between the 'Price trap-out' procedure and Mr. Hogan's but it is a great write-up as to the general Hogan trap-out process.

    One thing that Rusty alludes to in the article but doesn't elaborate upon is the idea of one-way versus two-way flow between the cavity and the trap-out.

    I have concluded (with but little experience) that it is important to allow the transition to remain two-way traffic for a few days after installation of the brood box.

    Not only is there a significant flow of bees from the tree to the box, but Mr. Hogan states it is unlikely that the queen will be able to travel through the one-way bee cone- so if she does come down early in the process, having an open transition makes successfully transitioning her to your trap-out box more likely.

    Also, just like most things in beekeeping I expect that timing is everything. This Summer trap-out has developed much differently than the Spring trap-out. I would expect the best time for this type of effort is after the chance of significant chilled brood has passed (i.e. putting open brood in your trap-out) but before/during prime swarm season when the colony is in population build-up mode.

  6. #965
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Congratulations!
    Good to have a trap-out expert in residence.
    Never know when need a consult.
    Thank you, GregV. No expert here, but it has been fun and interesting to watch these develop... and I am always glad to offer what little advice that I might have.

    FWIW I decided to hold on moving them this weekend given how hot it is forecasted to be. I'll plan on feeding them 2X a week and move them after daytime highs settle down into the 80's here in the next few weeks.

  7. #966
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    On another topic, there has been a discussion recently on Bee-L regarding 'Darwinian Beekeeping'. Part of this meandering discussion has focused on the impact of drift on disease proliferation:

    https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...4d851d.1908&S=

    Recently, the discussion questioned whether pesticides might be contributing to an impaired navigation function for foragers and thus increasing drift. A recent reply by Mr. Randy Oliver really caught my attention and made me again wonder if robbing screens should be standard equipment for our colonies- particularly in a TF context?

    Randy's reply:

    "No pesticides in my area. We marked 6,000 bees in some hives collapsing from varroa/DWV and recovered the marked bees from other hives at distances up to over a mile. I will be publishing the results soon.

    We found very large drift to a group of hives 500 ft away, substantial drift to an apiary 1/2 mile distant, and some drift to 1 mile. Of interest was that there was just as much drift of bees from a healthy control hive without varroa.

    I'm as curious as you as to why they drift to distant hives. I strongly suspect that olfaction is involved. I have no idea whether they simply get lost, and drift to the odor of hives upwind, or whether during foraging flights they investigate other hives and don't get stopped by guards."
    Last edited by Litsinger; 08-20-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Added reference

  8. #967
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    The more I observe bees, the more I realize just how little I understand them.

    I have been convinced that #1906 is queenless simply by observing their entrance activity (or lack thereof) as compared to the other colonies in the home yard.

    ...

    Like I said, I don't really know- I literally learn/observe something new almost every day.
    WOW did I mess up today (thus proving my own point).

    It has finally cooled-off a bit here in Western Kentucky so I decided to dive-into #1906 to see what was going on. In retrospect I should have just left them alone...

    I have been feeding them pretty steadily over the past few weeks and the first thing I observed was that the top box remained empty- I figured this was an ominous sign.

    I then took off the second box, which was now heavy with nectar but I could not see any capped cells looking from above or below.

    Finally, I looked in the bottom box and saw they were busy drawing out drone-sized cells in there- "Aha" I say- "they are queenless".

    So, I set about to shake them out, moving the boxes into a somewhat remote location and commencing to tearing them down. As predicted, the full top-bar frames in the brood nest are braced together and 1-2 and 7-8 respectively are one continuous nectar comb.

    On a whim, I decide to pull the brood nest apart and I am horrified to find a small patch of brood and the queen on one of the center three frames...

    So I quickly salvaged what I could into a single box and put them back in their original location, leaving the remaining carnage for the bees to clean up.

    I am frustrated with myself and with the limitations of top bar comb for efficient inspections.

    I suppose I will leave them in this single box until dark to see if they can restore some semblance of order before I decide what to do next.

    Brood Box.jpg Queen.jpg

  9. #968
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    I am frustrated with....... the limitations of top bar comb for efficient inspections.
    Look here how the modern "tree-hollow" hives work:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tuss2KxkzU

    If anything, this is what I will do (a variant of the same).
    Working with a pure Warre is truly a pain (unless you truly run it as a log hive - set it and forget it and run as a pseudo-feral unit - then working by a box is sufficient if you even manage that far).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #969
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Working with a pure Warre is truly a pain (unless you truly run it as a log hive - set it and forget it and run as a pseudo-feral unit - then working by a box is sufficient if you even manage that far).
    Good point, GregV. I am guilty of breaking my own rule of maintaining these Warre hives as 'genetic resources'. In this case, I thought I could "help" and look where that got me. I should have just left them well-enough alone as I had planned all along.

    I did manage to get 80% of the frames wired back to the top bars with sandwich bag twist ties and I gave them all the top bar comb I could scrounge up before I buttoned them up.

    As of this afternoon they still look a little disoriented but there is pollen incoming and they are much more defensive than usual so I am hopeful I didn't roll the queen when hurriedly putting humpty dumpty back together. We'll see if they are able to successfully recover from my ineptitude.

    BTW- Thank you for sharing the video- what size are the frames are they using? Those boxes look even smaller than a standard Warre box?

    Thanks again for your feedback.

    Russ

    20190824_205616.jpg 20190824_213624.jpg

  11. #970
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    ....what size are the frames are they using? Those boxes look even smaller than a standard Warre box?

    Thanks again for your feedback.

    Russ

    20190824_205616.jpg 20190824_213624.jpg
    They are using these specifications (pg. 37 - frame specs)
    УДАВ(1).pdf
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #971
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    They are using these specifications (pg. 37 - frame specs)
    УДАВ(1).pdf
    Thanks GregV. So 'Google Translate' may have let me down, but I get the sense that this is called an 'Alpine' hive and it is styled after a Delon hive?

    If my math is correct, the frames themselves are about half the area of a modified Warre frame and the internal volume of each box is about 20% smaller?

  13. #972
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Thanks GregV. So 'Google Translate' may have let me down, but I get the sense that this is called an 'Alpine' hive and it is styled after a Delon hive?

    If my math is correct, the frames themselves are about half the area of a modified Warre frame and the internal volume of each box is about 20% smaller?
    Some call this "Alpine" hive, indeed.
    But the original UDAV-hive inventor (the author of the PDF book) is not living in the mountains, but in rather mainstream, North-East Russia region.
    So the Delon's climate-stable hive is properly called the Alpine and depends on a taller frame (with the box being the same 300mm x 300mm, but also taller to match the frame).

    The hive specifications presented here should be called exactly that - UDAV (not Alpine).

    The UDAV author deliberately made his frame more shallow (and, consequently, the box) and insists on this size for his region.
    This is to allow for "by-the-box" management style and also to make the box-increment as small as practically possible - a box is compatible to two standard Dadant frames by the comb area.
    Adding a box is equivalent to adding two Dadant frames - gradual enough (especially critical during the early spring colony expansion).

    ....(AND also to be exactly 1/4 of the standard Dadant frame - a practical choice for efficient Dadant foundation usage - once sheet of Dadant foundation cuts into 4 small frames).

    For more Southern destinations, the frame can be made somewhat larger the author concedes - taller be exact.
    But only by 1-2 inches, he stipulates - so to remain truly "by-the-box" managed hive - which I appreciate more now (due to current working with my hybrid hives where 10-frame Lang medium full of honey is, eh...., way to heavy for my liking; .....half-full Lang box I can manage, but then what is the point of such box?)

    As for me, I concluded, I want to modify existing Lang med frames to - 12 1/2" x 6 1/4" (make the top bar shorter).
    This will be my standard small frame to be used in honey supers and/or "tree-hollow" hives.
    My standard large frame is - 12 1/2" x 17 3/4 " (defined by two medium Lang frames tied together).

    12 1/2" ~ 300 mm - essential standard frame width of all tree-hollow hives and heritage long hives (Delon, UDAV, and similar vertical variants; Ukrainian, Levicki, and similar long variants).
    Conveniently, two connected standard Lang medium frames fit perfectly into this exact paradigm - 300mm x 300mm square.
    Then the small frame should work into the same dimension, just serve somewhat different use-cases.
    Last edited by GregV; 08-26-2019 at 01:08 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #973
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    As for me, I concluded, I want to modify existing Lang med frames to - 12 1/2" x 6 1/4" (make the top bar shorter).
    This will be my standard small frame to be used in honey supers and/or "tree-hollow" hives.
    My standard large frame is - 12 1/2" x 17 3/4 " (defined by two medium Lang frames tied together).

    ...

    Conveniently, two connected standard Lang medium frames fit perfectly into this exact paradigm - 300mm x 300mm square.
    Then the small frame should work into the same dimension, just serve somewhat different use-cases.
    This makes good sense to me, GregV- at least for the approach you are taking. It seems to offer you a lot of possibilities for adaptation as you work with different hive bodies.

    For my part, I am going to stick with the 8-frame medium Langs as my go-to equipment, but it has been helpful and educational to have bees housed in Warre boxes, as I think they seem to give you a more direct sense of the bees internal operations, at least with initial comb building.

    I do look forward to continuing to read about your efforts in exploring these compact (and not so compact) vertical hive configurations.

  15. #974
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Ran by the trap-out this afternoon to give them a final check-out before planning to move them this weekend.

    I saw a bee struggling to carry out a dead drone from the robbing screen installed over the lower entrance and decided to remove it to see what was going on.

    I found this...

    20190827_122828.jpg 20190827_122856.jpg

    These are the biggest hive beetles I have ever encountered. I cleaned this mess up and left the robbing screen off to hopefully assist them in their clean-up efforts.

  16. #975
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Ran by the trap-out this afternoon to give them a final check-out before planning to move them this weekend.

    I saw a bee struggling to carry out a dead drone from the robbing screen installed over the lower entrance and decided to remove it to see what was going on.

    I found this...

    20190827_122828.jpg 20190827_122856.jpg

    These are the biggest hive beetles I have ever encountered. I cleaned this mess up and left the robbing screen off to hopefully assist them in their clean-up efforts.
    may have been in the tree and finally came out looking for food. I guess the trap out would work on other insects in the tree.
    Maybe note how long the beetles took to come out. Then you can pull the bees just before the other inhabitants decide to come out as well.
    or let it happen, they were together in the tree I presume.

  17. #976
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Maybe note how long the beetles took to come out. Then you can pull the bees just before the other inhabitants decide to come out as well.
    That's a great idea, GG. I did not observe this mess during my visit this past Friday, so I can note this as a data point for future trap-out efforts.

    As always, I appreciate your input- it is a big help.

    Russ

  18. #977
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    I know this is old-hat to all you pros, but for all the 'new-bees' like me I wanted to share something that has served me well thus far in the foundationless context- namely hive leveling.

    As I prepare to bring home the late-season trap-out I find myself without a place to put them so I spent the afternoon preparing a new location.

    After selecting a place to spot a hive (thus far facing East-Southeast with morning sun and afternoon shade has been best), I begin by clearing-away the organic material in a rectangular area roughly twice the size of the hive stand footprint.

    I then use a spade to cut out any roots or other fibrous materials at or near the surface.

    Following, I tamp the location to compact the soil.

    I then apply approximately a wheelbarrow load of mixed limestone aggregate (around here we call it #67's) in approximately 1" lifts, tamping as I go until the aggregate pad itself is dead-level side-to-side and slightly forward-leaning front-to-back.

    While I can appreciate that not everyone has easy access to limestone, I like using the mixed aggregate with fines in it because it sets-up something akin to concrete and it helps stifle weed growth, at least in the immediate footprint of the hive.

    20190828_150320.jpg 20190828_151119.jpg 20190828_152451.jpg 20190828_154658.jpg

  19. #978
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    I know this is old-hat to all you pros....
    I think I am a pro because I am way beyond what you are doing, Russ.
    My way - toss an old tire; drop a couple of 2x4 scraps on top if it - done.
    Site ready for a hive.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #979
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I think I am a pro because I am way beyond what you are doing, Russ.
    My way - toss an old tire; drop a couple of 2x4 scraps on top if it - done.
    Site ready for a hive.
    You are the man, GregV. I hope to be like you when I climb the steep mountain of bee knowledge .

    In all seriousness I do recognize and appreciate there are many perfectly good ways to set-up hives (old tires and scrap lumber included)- just wanted to underscore the importance of hive leveling during set-up for those new folks like me who are experimenting with foundationless.

    I have already learned the hard way how difficult it is (relatively speaking) to correct a hive after bees are in it versus before they are on location...

  21. #980
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Greg, that is funny because I have a swarm trap (10 frame hive) in the woods at a customer's house, sitting on an old tire. And I thought I was the only real cheapskate out there.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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