Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ? - Page 65
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  1. #1281

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    ...that in the beginning, buckfast bees were not welcomed by leading scientists and beekeeping associations in his homeland Germany. They supported carnica as the only race in Germany.

    There has been furious fights between pure breeding carnica group and buckfast beekeepers in Germany.

    Carnica is a, successfull, school example of pure breeding. Race breeding was (is?) a red flag to the carnica group. Germany is a tightly populated country, there is no room for angry bees. In the beginning lots of misunderstandings about the buckfast breeding system and its possible effects on pure carnica.
    Still the same situation. "Scientists" (they call themselves this way...) and some popular beekeeping gods of Germany still propagate the Carnica bee. Even worse in Austria: in some states of Austria they banned all other bees than Carnica. All beekeepers, including multiple thousand hive operations are forced to requeen their hives with Carnica queens. By police force.

    While the Buckfast bee gains more and more popularity, because it is the better bee. Just is and this speaks for itself. Everyone with own eyes sees that, so with the oldtimer carnica people dying out, there hopefully will be some progress.

    The only problem now for the Buckfast is the hunt for the varroa resistant bee and VSH selection. It creates a real narrow bottle neck, only queens from a few breeder (one...) are used in all major Buckfast mating stations. I think, that'll backfire in the near future.

    I still enjoy my Elgon (Erik Österlund)+buckfast wild mixture and for me I see some nice varroa hardiness (not resistance).

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  3. #1282
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Brother Adam used inbreeding as a tool to fix traits.

    ...

    Carnica is a, successfull, school example of pure breeding.
    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    The only problem now for the Buckfast is the hunt for the varroa resistant bee and VSH selection. It creates a real narrow bottle neck, only queens from a few breeder (one...) are used in all major Buckfast mating stations. I think, that'll backfire in the near future.
    Juhani and Bernhard:

    Thank you both for your input- good information. Upon reading your responses, I looked for specific published information about the current state-of-affairs in Germany regarding Carnica and Buckfast. The only current information I could find was at the following hyperlink:

    http://www.apisjovita.de/index.php/e.../breeding.html

    That said, I did also read a couple other references which were helpful and relevant to the current discussion. In ‘The Monk and the Honey Bees’ (Mr. Paul Jungels memorial to Brother Adam), he states (quoting Brother Adam) that, Later cross-breeding with the Athos (Macedonian bee) at the end of the 1980’s and a further Anatolian Cross-breed at the start of the 1990’s was “not so much in order to acquire new characteristics as to achieve a further intensification of qualities already attained.”

    http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/h...biogr96en.html

    Also, pages 407 and 408 of the book 'Bee Genetics and Breeding' (Edited by Thomas E. Rinderer), there is a good discussion of the use of both Line Breeding and Hybrid Breeding in the Carnica and the Buckfast:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=MyTgBAAAQBAJ&pg
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  4. #1283

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    Also, pages 407 and 408 of the book 'Bee Genetics and Breeding' (Edited by Thomas E. Rinderer), there is a good discussion of the use of both Line Breeding and Hybrid Breeding in the Carnica and the Buckfast:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=MyTgBAAAQBAJ&pg



    This thread is getting expensive.

    I do have Adams book "In the search of the best bee.." but it is a translation, in Swedish, the only one I could find way back before Amazon.

    Had to order the original to check the quotes...


    Now, I do have one book of Laidlaws, but none from Rinderer...

  5. #1284
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Now, I do have one book of Laidlaws, but none from Rinderer...
    Juhani:

    The good news is you can read most of the Rinderer text online at the link above. In particular, the quoted sections are available in the preview.

    I sincerely hope that you and your family have a Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  6. #1285
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    5. Man’s Aim in Breeding
    As regards bee breeding, Brother Adam was greatly influenced by the work of German zoologist Ludwig Armbruster. In fact, he dedicates his ‘Breeding the Honeybee’ to his memory:

    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Armbruster

    In specific, Brother Adam owed much of his breeding approach to Armbruster’s 1919 text ‘Bienenzüchtungskunde’ which is loosely translated as ‘The Science of Bee Breeding, an Art’.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bienenzüchtungskunde

    One of many tenants that Brother Adam adopted from the text is that one must establish specific, measurable goals for one’s breeding effort to help evaluate whether progress is being made. He reminds us that, “A comprehensive knowledge and assessment of the characteristics, which we can influence by breeding, forms the necessary foundation for a successful breeding programme.”

    He further adopted (and quoted) Armbruster when he observed that there are, “… three aims in beekeeping: a sportive one, a scientific one, [and] an economic one.” [p. 55]

    Here we see that our goals and objectives are largely influenced by the aims of our beekeeping efforts, namely: enjoyment, research or business.

    For Brother Adam, he was unambiguous in his breeding goal:

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    ... "...the development of a strain that will produce the maximum returns with a minimum of labour." [Best Strains p. 43]
    He goes on to say that, “He maintains (referring to Armbruster), and so do I, that this objective can only be obtained by cross-breeding, by combining in one strain, as far as possible, the desirable characteristics of the various geographical races. Nature can never bring about such a combination; it can only be effected by the direct intervention of man.”

    I sincerely wish you all a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous 2020- the start to another new decade.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  7. #1286
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    With a high near 55 degrees F and sunny skies, the first day of the new year presented an excellent opportunity to collect mites for review.

    I renewed the trays on December 18th so it has been a fortnight since installation.

    Below I have listed the total number of mites collected per hive and the percentage of mites with obvious missing appendages beside.

    The evaluations were completed in accord with the procedure recommended by Dr. Brock Harpur at Purdue University and as generally outlined in the following article:

    https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-...ontrol-varroa/

    Helpful to my review were the attached photo and annotated anatomical outline respectively of the ventral side of a mite.

    Also helpful was the following link, describing the various acarine anatomical terms:

    https://idtools.org/id/mites/invasiv...e_Glossary.htm

    I will follow with representative photos and descriptions of typical observations.

    #1803 - 9 (78%)
    #1804- 7 (57%)
    #1907- 5 (40%)
    #1909- 6 (100%)
    #1910- 2 (100%)
    #1911- 3 (100%)
    #1912- 5 (40%)

    jacobsoni5_female.jpg Mite Anatomy.jpg
    Last edited by Litsinger; 01-02-2020 at 10:16 AM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  8. #1287
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    I will follow with representative photos and descriptions of typical observations.
    With the helpful assistance of Ms. Dorothey Morgan with the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association, I was able to secure much better photo resolution which proved most helpful in evaluation.

    One interesting item of note is that as compared to summer and fall evaluations the damage seems to be predominantly observable on the mouthparts (gnathosoma) as opposed to the legs (tarsus). Example photos include:

    1. Photo #1- Live (and visibly undamaged) mite.

    2. Photo #2- Heavily damaged mite.

    3. Photo #3- Mite with severed mouthparts.

    4. Photo #4- Mite with severed legs.

    Photo #1- Live Mite.jpg Photo #2- Heavily Damaged Mite.jpg Photo #3- Mite with Missing Mouth Parts.jpg Photo #4- Mite with Missing Legs.jpg
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  9. #1288
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Oh boy! Looks like you got bees that are maiming mites...
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  10. #1289
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    given 40% is a "breeder" for Purdue MBB, I think something is up, maby time of year?
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  11. #1290
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tpope View Post
    Oh boy! Looks like you got bees that are maiming mites...
    Thanks, TPope. We'll all get to watch together to see what unfolds.

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    given 40% is a "breeder" for Purdue MBB, I think something is up, maby time of year?
    Certainly could be, MSL. Ms. Dorothey Morgan and their team are using a 50% cut-line for their breeding efforts. The Bee Culture article above talks about the difficulty of selecting the correct seasonal timing for evaluating the mite drops for the purposes of identifying breeding stock.

    For my part, I am going to simply continue recording as much data as practical and hopefully develop a data set that provides some sort of correlation.
    Last edited by Litsinger; 01-02-2020 at 10:17 AM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  12. #1291
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    One interesting item of note is that as compared to summer and fall evaluations the damage seems to be predominantly observable on the mouthparts (gnathosoma) as opposed to the legs (tarsus).
    Good photos. Great bees.
    David Matlock

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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Good photos. Great bees.
    Thank you for your encouragement, David. I sincerely appreciate it.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  14. #1293
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    6. Selection Principles
    As one might imagine, Brother Adam has much to say concerning the fundamentals which under gird selection in honeybees. One of the most basic and important considerations is the fact that, “ … a colony of bees is an agglomeration of groups, each with its own definite set of hereditary dispositions, and it is these taken together which bestow on each community of bees its actual peculiar set of characteristics.” [p. 11]

    Meaning a single colony is represented by many different family groups (each with their own inherent strengths and weaknesses) which comprise the performance of the colony as a whole.

    Here Brother Adam reminds us that an undue focus on external characteristics (such as color or banding) will at best be of but limited value for evaluation purposes and at worst might stifle our goals of bee improvement. He notes, “Uniformity of external characteristics in bee breeding is no guarantee of purity of inheritance.” [p. 27]

    I should note that this does not mean that Brother Adam was unconcerned with external characteristics (he in fact used them as one of his assessments of isolated stocks) but that external characteristics in and of themselves do not conflate any particular prediction as to the ultimate performance or heredity of a colony.

    Building on this idea, Brother Adam speaks often that colony performance is the synthesis of the interplay of myriad factors rather than the direct result of single performance metrics. He observes, “… performance does not depend upon one factor but always on the harmonious interplay of a series of factors. The more perfect this harmony, the greater is the potential for performance.” [p. 65]

    In fact, without this successful synergy, individual traits we might be interested in (inherent varroa resistance for example) may not be able to express themselves fully. He declares, “One good trait demands a whole chain of other good traits. Indeed without the interaction of this chain one single characteristic cannot develop to the full.” [p. 57]

    From this perspective, Brother Adam builds the framework for the possibilities available through careful cross-breeding.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  15. #1294
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Good photos. Great bees.
    the mouth part mauling "could" be the bees ripping the mite off another bee, it resisted they bite the part connected. As I recall the mite attached itself for feeding on Hemalympth, so presumably the mouth is attached. If removal is wanted the disconnect would need to happen. So "let go or I bite your mouth parts off"

    Or the bees have figured out that with out a mouth part the Mite cannot attach.
    I would believe the first, mouth parts damaged during removal.

    Interesting observations..

  16. #1295

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Nice work and summary at the end of that work. Well worth reading it carefully.

    Citation:
    The seven-year continuous record from one of these reserves, Cape Point, demonstrates that this Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis) population has developed almost total tolerance to the varroa mite (Varroa destructor), to the extent that there are practically no mites remaining in these colonies (Table 5.1; Figure 5.1). Furthermore, this varroa tolerance developed within 4-5 years of the first arrival of the mite, and without any significant colony losses. Indeed, varroa populations in the Cape Point honeybee population never rose to dangerous levels, peaking at 6.5% after three years. This is the first case of fully-documented mite tolerance anywhere in the world, where a population has been continuously monitored from the first arrival of the mite until full tolerance has developed, and the first accurate confirmation that (at least) some African honeybees are tolerant to the varroa mite.
    [...]
    As for the underlying causes of the observed varroa tolerance in Cape honeybees, a number of factors were investigated. Some of these factors clearly were not involved in varroa tolerance in Cape honeybees, these being aggression directed at the mites or grooming by the bees to mechanically remove mites, the relative attractiveness of A.m.capensis brood, and the possibility of pseudoscorpions acting as biocontrol agents of the varroa mite. A mere 0.2% (4 out of 2148; Table 5.6) of mites on the hive inserts were found to have bite marks, indicating the almost total lack of direct aggression towards varroa mites by Cape honeybees.

    from:
    https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstrea...pdf?sequence=1

    ANALYSIS OF VARROA DESTRUCTOR INFESTATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICAN HONEYBEE POPULATIONS
    MIKE ALLSOPP

  17. #1296

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Another one bites the...mite.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-selection.pdf

    Classification and quantification of damaged Varroa jacobsoni found in the debris of honey bee colonies as criteria for selection?
    American Bee Journal · October 2000


    BREEDING MITE-BITING BEES TO CONTROL VARROA
    https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-...ontrol-varroa/

  18. #1297
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    the mouth part mauling "could" be the bees ripping the mite off another bee, it resisted they bite the part connected. As I recall the mite attached itself for feeding on Hemalympth, so presumably the mouth is attached. If removal is wanted the disconnect would need to happen. So "let go or I bite your mouth parts off"

    Or the bees have figured out that with out a mouth part the Mite cannot attach.
    I would believe the first, mouth parts damaged during removal.

    Interesting observations..
    Gray Goose:

    You might be on to something here. Thank you for the input.

    Now that I am able to get better resolution out of the microscope, let's see what Spring brings and we can compare.

    Thanks again for all your help!

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  19. #1298
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Nice work and summary at the end of that work. Well worth reading it carefully.
    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Another one bites the...mite.
    Bernhard:

    Thank you for the helpful research papers. I thoroughly enjoyed reading them both. It seems that the 'Analysis of Varroa Destructor Infestation of Southern African Honeybee Populations' helps unlock at least a part of the findings contained within the 'Classification and Quantification of Damaged Varroa Jacobsoni Found in the Debris of Honey Bee Colonies as Criteria for Selection?'

    Specifically, the 'Classification' paper summarizes, "We classified the fallen mites (collected in 24 hour intervals) found in 10 Africanized honey bee colonies according to the type of damage found, to determine if any particular kind of damage would be indicative of efficient resistance of the honey bee colonies. Among the 1201 adult female mites collected, 36.9% were found damaged, which is similar to the percentage damaged mites reported for European bees, despite the fact that Africanized bees tolerate varroa better than Europeans."

    Meaning (as I understand it) that they could not draw any correlation between relative mite tolerance in Africanized bees and mite damage.

    In the 'Analysis' paper they conclude:

    "It should be noted that no single resistance mechanism is considered to be responsible for the varroa tolerance of honeybee populations in Russia, Arizona and Kentucky (Erickson et al 1998; De Guzman et al 2002). Rather, an amalgam of many different traits both behavioural and physiological is considered to be responsible for the tolerance. In the mite tolerance in African bees, this smorgasbord of tolerance-inducing characteristics appears not to be the case. The direct aggression of African honeybees to varroa mites, the presence of a natural biocontrol agent, and the attractivity of brood to mites could all be excluded as possible causes of tolerance, leaving only hygienic behaviour and the short post-capping period of Cape honeybees as the cause of mite tolerance. These are, however, considered sufficient to explain the in-hive development of mite tolerance in African bees."

    They also note that, "The rapid development of mite tolerance in the Cape bee is thought to be due to the well developed removal of varroa-infested brood and the short post-capping period of worker brood. Together these resulted in a very rapid increase in infertile mites in the colony, the collapse of the mite population, and varroa tolerance. Tolerance does not develop as rapidly in Savanna honeybees as the post-capping period in these bees is similar to that of European bees and does not result in as many infertile mites."

    So I understand that the study's author concludes that there is either single or dual-action resistance at work in the Savanna and Cape honeybee respectively and multi-mode action at work in other surveyed results in resistant EHB populations.

    Practically speaking, I am making no active selection decisions with the in-situ colonies but rather recording any data (such as mite biting) I can to ascertain what (if anything) can be utilized for predictive analysis in the future.

    If I had to venture a guess, I would expect that any honeybees which demonstrate a modicum of resistance in the US do so as the result of a successful conjunction of multiple factors. I find helpful a paper that Fusion_Power referenced some months ago which briefly outlines the various resistance mechanisms which have been identified:

    https://aristabeeresearch.org/varroa-resistance/

    Beyond this, there were a couple additional 'nuggets' in the 'Analysis' paper that I found interesting:

    "The speed with which mite tolerance will develop will depend on population postcapping time and population hygienic behaviour, but there appears no reason why it would not develop in any honeybee population, given enough time."

    "Bailey (1999) and Allsopp (1999) have argued that selective breeding for “quality” by and for beekeepers has decreased the resistance in honeybee populations to a wide range of pathogens. Highly intensive selection has decreased genetic variability and selected against critical 'bee tolerance' factors such as swarming and defensiveness (Bailey 1999). A more sensible approach would be to: (a) Manage naturally occurring regional strains of honeybee, rather than importing strains from elsewhere. This is particularly important in Europe and Africa where Apis mellifera is indigenous and less so where it is an exotic species. (b) Practise “primitive” beekeeping as is the case in Africa by allowing natural selection processes to determine which are the most significant characteristics for selection and not the beekeepers or bee scientists, at least to some extent. It is also best to use an un-manipulated wild population, and for this population to be as large as possible."

    Thanks again for the information. I sincerely appreciate it!

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  20. #1299

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Concerning the nuggets. Yes, given enough time, resistance will develop. Even with human interference in the process.

    a) From practical experience like that from Brother Adam, you will have to import some new strains when breeding for resistance. Especially if the local bee doesn't have any resistance at all in their genetics. That was the case with the tracheal mites that wiped out the British black bee in great numbers. And now doesn't bother bees in Europe much anymore. Thanks to the importing of new strains that had the defensive mechanisms in their genes.

    Of course, given enough time, the non-native strains will immigrate on their own...one day...

    b) I have been keeping bees in primitive hives all my beekeeping career long. Was a playful GregV myself. Simply doesn't do it. Of course I learned a thing or two. Especially that propolis envelope makes a great difference in hardiness. But other than that a hollow tree won't be a solution to anything. Part of the problem is the high bee hive density here. In Africa you have the distance between the nest sites, which you don't have here.

    Given enough time all hives will be wiped out eventually. Thus the density would be greatly reduced.

    But that would come with some downsides for nature. We already have a rapid decline in insects. In Germany a loss of 75 % of the overall insect mass during the last decade has been scientifically described and confirmed. A huge loss in insect eating bird species, too. The rate of loss of species is as fast as was the distinction of the dinosaurs. No exaggeration but actually true.

    Since the other insects die out from other causes than varroa, I guess, there has to be other factors that leads to problems for insects in general. As beekeepers we choose to watch for bite marks on dead varroa. While crouching under the hives we miss what is going on around us.

    Just my two nuggets.

  21. #1300
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Just my two nuggets.
    Bernhard:

    Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your perspective. I share your concern for our natural environment and seek to be a good steward with the resources I have been entrusted with, at least to the extent that I have the power to affect change.

    Regarding the best path forward for developing an inherent resistance to varroa I currently subscribe to an 'all the above' approach. I am excited to read about how individuals from all over the world are approaching the problem from many different angles and I am hopeful that we will one day have one or many avenues available to disseminate resistance broadly.

    It is certainly possible (at least as I see it) that there are at least three paths forward:

    1. Natural Selection- As generally described in the 'Analysis' excerpt above.

    2. Controlled Mating- Also discussed in the 'Analysis' paper: "Other researchers (e.g. Danka et al 1997; Rinderer et al 2001) have argued that there would be no natural resistance to varroa, and that all unmanaged colonies would be eliminated with only especially bred commercial stock being able to survive. Chemical or biotechnical treatment of colonies (Van Dung et al 1997; Goodwin & Van Eaton 2001), and the breeding of selected stock to develop resistance (Rinderer et al 2001), are held as the only way to maintain colonies faced with the varroa mite. There have also been suggestions that this resistance needs to be maintained through controlled mating and/or gene based selection made possible by the Honeybee Genome project (Evans 2005), much as happens in many varieties of livestock and plant crops."

    3. No Inherent Mechanisms- In the course of time we may discover there is no reliable, broadly-reproducible method of propagating resistance mechanisms on a regional and/or global scale, at least in a time frame that is relevant to beekeepers at-large.

    Thank you again for your input. I do look forward to hearing more about the experiences in your apiary.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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