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  1. #1241
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    PS: well, I can only understand his logic with this qualifier - "the change must occur quickly enough FOR ME, for my time frame" - that I can understand from the personal point (you want to see your work results) - not necessarily the best results, but rather quick results.
    GregV:

    From my very humble perspective I think you hit the nail on the head. Brother Adam says as much near the end of the 5th video that MSL posted above when speaking about a particular genetic strain and attendant trait they hoped to exploit for the purposes of improving the overwintering ability of the Buckfast.

    Ultimately it comes down to what our objectives are (including timing) which should guide our decisions.

    For Brother Adam it was, 'more honey, less work' over a human lifetime.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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  3. #1242
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    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Nature is not going to reliably select for us and in many cases the local bees in our area may not have the genetic tool kit for best results.
    Great post, MSL. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to watch the 'Monk and the Honeybee' videos- very enjoyable and insightful.

    The thing that intrigues me about local genetics is that while they may not be adequate to suit our purposes, the opposite might also be true and one can't really know with certainty either way until it is put to the 'acid test'.

    The other thing that I appreciate is that the US is in many ways uniquely suited to see some of the various colony-level responses to varroa express themselves given the vast breadth of genetic material here, our wide geographic and climate differences and the freedom to experiment. I for one am excited for what the future might hold for resistant stocks.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  4. #1243
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    3. Vitality
    Brother Adam flatly observes that, “Lack of vitality lies at the root of nearly all our problems of beekeeping.” [p. 44]

    From this thesis he frequently speaks of the concept of vitality without ever explicitly defining the term (that I can find). He does however allude to what he has in view when he notes, “We speak about longevity by it would be more accurate to call what we are concerned with, vitality.” [p. 59]

    That said, he describes this concept not only with words like Longevity but also with the terms Endurance, Stamina and Hardiness such that one might assume he is using the word 'vitality' generally as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as:

    1. The state of being strong and active; energy.
    2. The power giving continuance of life, present in all living things.

    Brother Adam makes three (3) main points concerning vitality, namely:

    1. Unmanaged (i.e. feral) stock tends to exhibit the most vitality-

    “It is always the creature of the wild, be it animal of plant, which is the strongest of its kind, and from the point of view of practical economics not necessarily the most productive.” [p. 45]

    Here we again see him returning to this idea that Nature breeds for survival (describing it as being, “… gifted with the primitive exuberance of energy and vitality.” [p. 191]) and thus tends to award genetic combinations which exhibit high vitality- but not necessarily high surplus honey stores nor other traits we might find beneficial for our own purposes.

    2. Homozygosity tends toward reduced vitality-

    “… a high degree of racial purity nearly always entails a fundamental loss of vitality.” [p. 31]

    Here Brother Adam is describing the concept of 'inbreeding depression' as contrasted by heterosis or 'hybrid vigor':

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    3. Loss of vitality represents the limiting factor regarding the use of inbreeding for the purpose of fixing specific traits-

    “The loss of vitality, resulting from close inbreeding, determines the bounds to pure breeding and in the long run we cannot ignore Nature’s clear guidelines with impunity.” [p. 81]

    Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but regular introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  5. #1244
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    From memory that might be wrong, I thought he also looked hard at which bees flew in the coldest weather. Course, I don't really trust my memory.
    Cheers
    gww
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  6. #1245
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    From memory that might be wrong, I thought he also looked hard at which bees flew in the coldest weather. Course, I don't really trust my memory.
    Cheers
    gww
    I think you are right, GWW, but I think he had a rather nuanced approach to this. I've attached the evaluation rubric that Brother Adam used when comparing stock versus the reference Buckfast.

    In the matrix, one of the secondary evaluation parameters is 'Hardiness', which he defines as, "resistance to weather".

    He goes on to say that, "...any bee that quickly gets chilled when collecting water or pollen on sunny but cool spring days cannot be described as hardy."

    And tempers this statement by observing, "Any activity in inclement weather brings about a loss of energy in bees to no good purpose whatever..."

    So I would understand this to mean that it is all related to the foragers ability to make appropriate decisions which take fullest advantage of beneficial foraging opportunities.

    Evaluation Matrix.jpg
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  7. #1246
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Brother Adam flatly observes that, “Lack of vitality lies at the root of nearly all our problems of beekeeping.” [p. 44]

    From this thesis he frequently speaks of the concept of vitality without ever explicitly defining the term (that I can find). He does however allude to what he has in view when he notes, “We speak about longevity by it would be more accurate to call what we are concerned with, vitality.” [p. 59]

    That said, he describes this concept not only with words like Longevity but also with the terms Endurance, Stamina and Hardiness such that one might assume he is using the word 'vitality' generally as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as:

    1. The state of being strong and active; energy.
    2. The power giving continuance of life, present in all living things.

    Brother Adam makes three (3) main points concerning vitality, namely:

    1. Unmanaged (i.e. feral) stock tends to exhibit the most vitality-

    “It is always the creature of the wild, be it animal of plant, which is the strongest of its kind, and from the point of view of practical economics not necessarily the most productive.” [p. 45]

    Here we again see him returning to this idea that Nature breeds for survival (describing it as being, “… gifted with the primitive exuberance of energy and vitality.” [p. 191]) and thus tends to award genetic combinations which exhibit high vitality- but not necessarily high surplus honey stores nor other traits we might find beneficial for our own purposes.

    2. Homozygosity tends toward reduced vitality-

    “… a high degree of racial purity nearly always entails a fundamental loss of vitality.” [p. 31]

    Here Brother Adam is describing the concept of 'inbreeding depression' as contrasted by heterosis or 'hybrid vigor':

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

    3. Loss of vitality represents the limiting factor regarding the use of inbreeding for the purpose of fixing specific traits-

    “The loss of vitality, resulting from close inbreeding, determines the bounds to pure breeding and in the long run we cannot ignore Nature’s clear guidelines with impunity.” [p. 81]

    Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but regular introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.
    Russ I am not trying to rain on your parade but in the case of Honey bees, you have several issues that make most of this discussion Academic for almost every one here.
    first if the queen has 12-30 baby daddies then the actual egg /larvae selected for the Queen rearing could be 1 of 5-15 different crosses, assuming at least some of the baby daddies were "brothers" I. E. from the same Queen (Grandma) on the drone side.
    Also the raised Queen would also "open" mate and have several or many Lines in her offspring.

    I do not control which Drones are in the air in a several mile circle of my, soon to be mated queens, So it somewhat happens,, and we then evaluate.
    IF I select the egg/larvae and do insemination. Then IMO you have the non fittest mating with the non fittest, easily leading to the "vigor" we are describing here.
    Most of the Queens in the US are open mated, most of those that are not,, are in breeding programs or experimental.

    Seeley successfully mated Queen several miles from the drone source.

    So back to the issue at hand. If there are several lines in a hive in the winter and 1 or 2 lines need to, or want to fly, does that mean the other lines present,, likely more/a higher percentage are unfit? With open mating one may have line that winters well and lines that groom and lines that cell build well, Some of those could be "winter flyers" In the grand scheme of things one would need to separately evaluate each line on its own merits. Then pull Larvae from the "good" lines for queen rearing. Most of the genitic testing I am aware of, is "destructive" Squish and then stuff the mush into a gas chromatography unit. evaluating the live mated queen as, first, a member of what line? , then producing members of which of several lines? based on the mating, is not in the scope of most of We Beeks, to do ,,and for some of us wrapping our minds around all the permutations and the meaning of each would take way to many cycles. I also think it could be dangerous to blame what 1 or 2 lines do in the winter on the whole Hive, so labeling the hive bad genes because 1 line fly's in the winter. if 12 of the 13 lines do not fly maybe it is an ok queen after all. Or maybe they were the water carriers and it is on the beekeeper they are flying, hive is too dry /ventilated.
    Don't get me wrong it is interesting to ponder and even debate. The big "however" is what can an average member of Beesource do about it? there are only a few people I can think of that have control of their drone space, either by the hive count and area covered or by the remoteness of their operation. At some level even they need to bring in stock once and a while to prevent inbreeding. So the long term outcome of firm control is poor or watered down stock. Nature had originally had it fittest mating with the fittest and local, I.E. how far will a queen fly to mate? I think Seeley had poor success out past 18-20 miles, fairly good 12 or less. Since all of the US bees were "shipped in" the US has a fairly wide pool of Genetics. Hopefully this helps us in the end.
    Merry Christmas
    GG

  8. #1247

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but regular introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.
    I´m very pleased that you present the work of Brother Adam in such detail. I think there must be living a small teacher inside you, just like me.

    When reading your text I stopped in the word REGULAR.

    It is important to understand, that today Buckfast, the main stock, is like any other race in the sense of purity and homogeneity. This is easily manifested by taking grafts of the best European Buckfast strains and comparing the results with grafts of any "pure" Italian bees. I would bet my money on that the offspring of a pure Buckfast breeder is more even in performance (and color to that matter) than the offspring of that selected Italian breeder.

    The REGULAR introduction of new genetic material is not made in order to maintain Buckfast strain. That is unnecessary, because the strain is stable, and outperforming any other bee strain. And I´m now not talking about what you might have free mated in USA, but the bees of the best breeders in Europe, decades of insemination only.

    The introduction of new genetic material is done only if some new valuable trait is discovered somewhere. This is today a very rare incident, and hasn´t been done for ages. There was some work with Iranian bees in the 1990´s but not sure if that lead to anywhere.

    Crossings are made, if something new valuable quality is found, but the result of these crossings live separate life from the main stock. In Brother Adams time the process lasted for a decade, crossing back and forth, evaluating and even culling by colour at one point. And when he was satisfied then dawned the great day when this new work was incorporated into the main stock by using it as a drone line at Dartmore. Sometimes years of work was done for nothing, as in the case of Finnish black bees. He discarded all Buckfast x Finnish Black bee crossings. None of them filled his requirements. He judged that the propensity to swarm and bad temper in these crossings was a too big risk for his main Buckfast stock.

  9. #1248
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Russ I am not trying to rain on your parade but in the case of Honey bees, you have several issues that make most of this discussion Academic for almost every one here.
    Gray Goose:

    Thank you for your detailed and well-thought-out approach. For what it is worth, I share your sentiment that most of this is strictly academic for most of us mere mortals, but it is cold outside and there is not much to do in the beeyard so I thought it might make for some good winter fodder.

    I think you and I might be driving at the same thing as I posted the following at the outset of this effort:

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    So I am left to conclude that those of us who live in areas with a wide and ever-changing genetic background really only have two options:

    1. Utilize a strict and consistent system of closed-mating (either by breeding isolation or by frequent mated queen introductions) to maintain a predictable set of traits.

    2. Assume the benefits, liabilities and unpredictability of the local genetic population.

    This is obviously an oversimplification but does possibly help explain why specific traits (i.e. disease resistance) might be difficult to sustain in open-mated populations or why feral survival might be expressed in such wide and disparate modes in different areas, different years and different colonies.
    For me personally, this means first evaluating the local genetics to see if they collectively have what it takes (i.e. unfettered open mating) and no specific selection criteria (i.e. survival is the only selection mechanism). Should this prove untenable, it is insightful to me to consider the relatively rigid genetic control one must apply in order to sustain specific traits (particularly the recessive ones) in perpetuity.

    That said, I might be missing the forest for the trees, so please feel welcome to challenge my thinking on this.

    Merry Christmas to you and your family.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The REGULAR introduction of new genetic material is not made in order to maintain Buckfast strain. That is unnecessary, because the strain is stable, and outperforming any other bee strain. And I´m now not talking about what you might have free mated in USA, but the bees of the best breeders in Europe, decades of insemination only.

    ...

    Crossings are made, if something new valuable quality is found, but the result of these crossings live separate life from the main stock. In Brother Adams time the process lasted for a decade, crossing back and forth, evaluating and even culling by colour at one point. And when he was satisfied then dawned the great day when this new work was incorporated into the main stock by using it as a drone line at Dartmore. Sometimes years of work was done for nothing, as in the case of Finnish black bees. He discarded all Buckfast x Finnish Black bee crossings. None of them filled his requirements. He judged that the propensity to swarm and bad temper in these crossings was a too big risk for his main Buckfast stock.
    Juhani:

    First off- thank you for your kind words. I am honored that someone with your level of experience and expertise would take the time to read these posts. I imagine you have forgotten more about Brother Adam's work than I have learned thus far.

    Secondly- thank you for being willing to challenge my understandings of his philosophies and methods. It is helpful to read and consider your feedback and understand the subject more deeply.

    Finally- possibly the word 'regular' might be more appropriate if I better defined what I meant by new genetic material. Please feel welcome to steer me in the right direction if I veer off target.

    If we assume that an average hobby beekeeper purchased 3 - 5 mated Buckfast queens and then subsequently began instrumentally inseminating grafted queens from his base Buckfast lines with drones from the other Buckfast colonies in his/her yard, it would certainly maintain genetic integrity but would quickly lead to inbreeding depression correct?

    Brother Adam seems to be making this case when he writes that, “Experience has shown that without this care (avoiding inbreeding) even the most productive strains of bees can be ruined in a few generations.”

    So in this case, the best approach would be a 'regular' introduction of new Buckfast material from outside sources to maintain the vigor in the apiary as a whole?

    I imagine that at some point one could develop enough lines with enough diversity that the frequency of needing 'new' Buckfast material would be reduced but that on a practical level with strictly closed-mating it is necessary to bring outside stock in periodically to maintain vigor?

    Or asked another way- was Brother Adam able to develop enough inherent genetic diversity in his lines such that he could have maintained the vigor of his lines in perpetuity without any further outside genetic resources being added?

    What I envision him doing is continually bringing in new representations of the isolated genetic strains and recreating the proven crosses as new Buckfast lines to introduce into the system as a tool to combat inbreeding... but I might be completely off-base.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  11. #1250

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Juhani:

    First off- thank you for your kind words. I am honored that someone with your level of experience and expertise would take the time to read these posts. I imagine you have forgotten more about Brother Adam's work than I have learned thus far.

    Secondly- thank you for being willing to challenge my understandings of his philosophies and methods. It is helpful to read and consider your feedback and understand the subject more deeply.

    Finally- possibly the word 'regular' might be more appropriate if I better defined what I meant by new genetic material. Please feel welcome to steer me in the right direction if I veer off target.

    If we assume that an average hobby beekeeper purchased 3 - 5 mated Buckfast queens and then subsequently began instrumentally inseminating grafted queens from his base Buckfast lines with drones from the other Buckfast colonies in his/her yard, it would certainly maintain genetic integrity but would quickly lead to inbreeding depression correct?

    Brother Adam seems to be making this case when he writes that, “Experience has shown that without this care (avoiding inbreeding) even the most productive strains of bees can be ruined in a few generations.”

    So in this case, the best approach would be a 'regular' introduction of new Buckfast material from outside sources to maintain the vigor in the apiary as a whole?

    I imagine that at some point one could develop enough lines with enough diversity that the frequency of needing 'new' Buckfast material would be reduced but that on a practical level with strictly closed-mating it is necessary to bring outside stock in periodically to maintain vigor?

    Or asked another way- was Brother Adam able to develop enough inherent genetic diversity in his lines such that he could have maintained the vigor of his lines in perpetuity without any further outside genetic resources being added?

    What I envision him doing is continually bringing in new representations of the isolated genetic strains and recreating the proven crosses as new Buckfast lines to introduce into the system as a tool to combat inbreeding... but I might be completely off-base.
    Inbreeding is inevitable in closed population breeding (I remember reading some calculations about how big a population and how many breeder queens one must have to maintain sex alleles for 20 years, couple hundred breeders ?)

    The point of my previous post was just to remind readers of one most common misunderstanding about Buckfast:

    As silly as it sounds, the most common fake news about Buckfast bees is that they are hybrids which have to be created again and again with continuous crossings. And sometimes this "news" tells further that this work has to be done in Buckfast monestry.

    Makes me nuts.

    Buckfast does not differ in this respective from any other race, they all end up in inbreeding.

    Brother Adam lived in an era, when new isolated populations were to be found in remote places around Europe, Middle East and Africa. That time is gone forever. The main goal of Brother Adams various trips and new crossings was not avoiding inbreeding, but to develop Buckfast further. It helped to avoid inbreeding, too. But the goal of his search for new unknown, isolated bee races and varieties was to get new strains in his stock to make a perfect honeybee.

    Diversity must be maintained, but today it cannot be based on totally new material. In this respective Buckfast breeding today is in the same position as all other races.

    Of cource there might be some isolated bees to be found somewhere, but Buckfast breeding in not dependent on these findings, nor is avoiding inbreeding. But one must be careful. Especially in Europe there is a situation where just a handfull of major breeders dominate. Their work is so highly evaluated, that almost all other smaller breeders want to use their material. This leads to a situation when inbreeding effects, or "softness" as some phrase it, lurks around the corner.

  12. #1251
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    Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate.
    If we look at the main island mating station Baltrum used by Buckfast breeders in central Europe, we see that the drone lines are actually fairly young.

    Here is the link of Baltrum drone lines, going back to 2001.
    http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/hom...hr_TR_bal.html

    The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.

    If one looks trough the German Buckfast breeders and the pedigree of the queens most of the queens are at some point mated at Baltrum.

    Different mating stations are used for more conservative matings.


    Then there are those working with almost solely old Buckfast like Paul Jungels and Klaus (and father Franz) Fehrenbach.

  13. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunajavelho View Post
    Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate.
    If we look at the main island mating station Baltrum used by Buckfast breeders in central Europe, we see that the drone lines are actually fairly young.

    Here is the link of Baltrum drone lines, going back to 2001.
    http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/hom...hr_TR_bal.html

    The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.

    If one looks trough the German Buckfast breeders and the pedigree of the queens most of the queens are at some point mated at Baltrum.

    Different mating stations are used for more conservative matings.


    Then there are those working with almost solely old Buckfast like Paul Jungels and Klaus (and father Franz) Fehrenbach.
    I was going to disagree but you somewhat counteradicted your self .

    You state "Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate."

    Then
    "Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam."

    I f Rueppell is a disciple of brother Adam, then I would think Br Adam has everything to do with it.

    So IMO the breed "Buckfast" is not the "Man" Br Adam" it is the Ideas and understanding and processes of Br Adam, and continues to this day .
    The tool he picked "Baltrum" is Neither "Buckfast" or "Non Buckfast" How the Baltrum was applied and to what Line is the "buckfast" of it.

    GG

  14. #1253

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    B153(TR).17.GIF

    "B153(TR) is a queen of Thomas Rueppel (DE) mated in 2017, descendant G13 of Takab93aR. She is a Buckfast who comes from a line of pure meda (Iran)-combination well established."

    This breeder has mother originating from a Meda combination. We earlier discussed about the study of the mitochondria dna origin of buckfast. My rule of incorporating all new stuff from fathers side does not hold here. Maybe in that study it was just a lucky coincident that buckfast mitochondria dna was close to Italian.

    He has quite interesting origins. This is the first breeder in his listing.

    The origins of this breeder:
    B: buckfast
    I: meda (Iranian)
    MG: Margret's hive No 5
    NO: N°62


    Maybe Hunajavelho knows better what they are. I have no idea
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 12-20-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  15. #1254

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    B154(PJ).17.GIF

    I looked at couple pedigrees of Paul Jungels breeders. At least the first ones seemed to be made in that old way: new stuff in from fathers side, mother line is old stuff.

    " B154(PJ) is a queen of Paul Jungels (LU) mated in 2017, descendant G20 of AthosSt80R. She is a “Old Buckfast” who comes from a long strain of pure Athos Stavronikita-combination. "



    P.S. Some JL genes there too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    P.S. Some JL genes there too ...
    I imagine this has to be gratifying. Certainly speaks well of your reputation as a breeder.
    Last edited by Litsinger; 12-20-2019 at 05:59 PM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    As silly as it sounds, the most common fake news about Buckfast bees is that they are hybrids which have to be created again and again with continuous crossings
    maybe I am missing something, but the buck fast program seemed to be to me..that they were Out crossing for hybread vigor while trying to keep core traits.

    am I reading the pedagree right, that B154(PJ) was II with drones form here sisters , then one of her daughters 158 was II with drones form her sisters as well?

  18. #1257
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    maybe I am missing something, but the buck fast program seemed to be to me..that they were Out crossing for hybread vigor while trying to keep core traits.

    am I reading the pedagree right, that B154(PJ) was II with drones form here sisters , then one of her daughters 158 was II with drones form her sisters as well?
    I think Mate with "INS" insemination from drones OF X sister colonies. Not her sister colonies. So the the drones are cousins. but not cousins of the Queen.
    GG

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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    As previously noted, I have been taking 48 hour mite drops at each change of season to see if any meaningful trends might emerge within or between colonies and/or years.

    Today I completed the Winter counts and I incorporated them into a spreadsheet with the previous totals for future use and evaluation.

    Based on the limited sample size, I will wait a couple of weeks before collecting mites for view with the microscope.

    48-Hour Mite Drops.jpg
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Buckfast does not differ in this respective from any other race, they all end up in inbreeding.

    ...

    This leads to a situation when inbreeding effects, or "softness" as some phrase it, lurks around the corner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunajavelho View Post
    The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.
    Juhani and Hunajavelho:

    Thank you both for the insightful replies concerning the continued propagation of the Buckfast line. It is truly a fascinating and remarkable achievement, and I expect that most Buckfast breeders are rather sober-minded as they consider being the stewards of Brother Adam's legacy.

    This topic of inbreeding depression is where we are headed next, and do either of you know of any specific protocols that Brother Adam and/or his proteges have developed to avoid it?

    I also noted that Mr. Thomas Rueppel appears to have utilized some of Erik Österlund's stock as well?

    http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/h...d_TR_2006.html

    Thank you both for your helpful input.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  21. #1260

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    I also noted that Mr. Thomas Rueppel appears to have utilized some of Erik Österlund's stock as well?

    http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/h...d_TR_2006.html

    Can you point out more precisely which breeder queen?

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