WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers? - Page 4
Page 4 of 20 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 393
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,180

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    it's really all about varroa mites, and whether or not one is employing any measures to assist the colony in dealing with varroa mites.

    definitions are all over the map and the position of the forum is that there isn't any future in debating the definition.

    the founders of beesource came up with the working definition found in the 'unique forum rules' which are stickied on the sub-forum main page.

    that definition is not satisfying to all by any means, but represents the best attempt by those contributing at the time.

    i personally do not employ any method be it chemical, mechanical, artificial brood breaking, removal of drone brood, ect. most of my frames contain 5.4 rite cell foundation, although i have a few foundationless frames scattered in the mix.

    about the only manipulation i employ at all is the promoting of broodnest expansion during the spring build up to prevent swarming; and this if anything would be counter to limiting varroa mite population growth.

    as has been stated so much of this has to do with location and goals. i can appreciate how for many it's just easier to treat on a schedule and not worry about it.

    my hope however is that just as many or more will heed the call made by randy oliver to do what we can to move the ball forward in terms our management and selection for more resistant bees that are less dependent on the beekeeper to survive varroa mites.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #62
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,916

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I just learned something. Never heard of perga before. Bee bread. I can see why you would not want anything used on the bees. Cool.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  4. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jamesville, NC USA
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I've just been reading an article by Kirk Webster ( http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-p...rcial-apiaries )
    who I instinctively consider to be an all-round good guy - meaning that I believe 100% in his honesty and integrity - and so I had great difficulty in squaring the persuasive content of the above TF article with my own negative opinion regarding the underlying rationale of a treatment-free approach to beekeeping.

    Indeed, his article is so convincing that it took me a full half-hour to spot the fundamental flaw in his approach - which is - that he actually 'treats', but doesn't recognise that what he's doing constitutes 'treatment'.

    Perhaps my claim is easier to comprehend if one considers what would happen if Kirk was to 'put his feet up' for a few years, and stop intervening in all aspects of the life of the honeybees within his colonies. I would bet my pension that his colonies would revert to how they were before he adopted his TF approach. Hence - his management techniques have actually constituted a form of ongoing 'treatment'.

    This then becomes yet another example of the old chestnut I keep banging on about: "what is the precise definition of 'treatment-free' ?" (which is simply a rhetorical question here, as I fully accept that asking this question 'for real' is against the rules for this sub-forum)

    Until we begin to accept that all forms of beekeeper intervention (including management practices) constitute 'treatment' and should therefore be included within the word's definition, we will continue to argue over this false dichotomy between the treatment and treatment-free approaches.
    LJ
    Are we talking semantics or beekeeping? Check out some quantum mechanics and you can even get more confused. Walking by the hives and taking a look at them without even opening the hives changes things in some way. So the only treatment free beekeepers are people that never see bees. Or maybe we should just say that treatment free means you can't buy your treatments over the internet, that should cover it for you.

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,413

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by roddo27846 View Post
    Or maybe we should just say that treatment free means you can't buy your treatments over the internet, that should cover it for you.
    Bought my OA at Ace Hardware! I'm treatment free!
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Rensselaer County, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,535

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    And I'm not killing mites, I'm bleaching the tops of my frames! Apparently varroa do less-well in hives with sparkling-clean tops-of-frames. Who knew?

    Nancy

  7. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Excessive OA presence is, clearly, toxic (hence some parts of rhubarb are not recommended for eating, as one example).
    As for me, I do not want excessive presence of OA in my perga - I harvest perga.
    gram per gram a spinach leave has more OA then a rhubarb leaf, so lets leave the myths at the garden.
    a large serving of spinach (150-200 g) = about an OA treatment... even if it all went in to one spot, and you ate it in one serving its very unlikly to be any sort of issue
    However I get the wan't of "chemical free"..

    It is time to just call it "pesticide-free" management practices.
    People should just start using this honest, simple definition and move alone.
    more or less
    I don't get the need for people to identify them selfs with a name... treatment free, chemical free, natural beekeeping, organically managed... etc...
    I have run in to "chemical free" beekeepers who use OA/FA as they are "Organic compounds, not synthetic chemicals"

    As LJ points out you can chase TF to management free, and we are only left with honey hunting. While that's not the intent, that's the flaw with the natural selection arugemnts.

    my hope however is that just as many or more will heed the call made by randy oliver to do what we can to move the ball forward in terms our management and selection for more resistant bees that are less dependent on the beekeeper to survive varroa mites.
    +1

    One way or anther beekeepers have to manage mites or their hives will die.
    Be it resistant genetics, culture practices, manipulations or chems- they are all managements
    I feel the sooner the TF world squares with management of thier hives, and the realty of section and propagation of local resistant stocks the faster things will progress.

    If itís a matter of treating your hive vs having to buy commercial package bees the following year, its better off to treat them-Sam Comfort
    The point he makes in his talks is local sustainability is step 1, You need to get to were your not buying any bees (especially commercial ones) before you can progress.

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,561

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by roddo27846 View Post
    Are we talking semantics or beekeeping? Check out some quantum mechanics and you can even get more confused. Walking by the hives and taking a look at them without even opening the hives changes things in some way. So the only treatment free beekeepers are people that never see bees. Or maybe we should just say that treatment free means you can't buy your treatments over the internet, that should cover it for you.
    How about the semantics OF beekeeping ?

    "Precise definitions make it easier to focus on a problem. At the present time, semantic confusion exists among bee scientists whenever the terms resistance and tolerance are utilized." So writes John Kefuss - and I'd extend that confusion to include the terms treatment and treatment-free as well.

    I'd offer the following as a starting point:
    Treatment: the attempt to achieve a desired outcome; the manner in which some thing or disease is cared for or dealt with. Notice - there's no specific mention of chemicals there, and yet TF appears to have become synonymous with medication.

    If we draw a loose analogy with Human treatments, then we have:
    Medicine - where chemicals are principally employed
    Surgery - minimal use of chemicals
    Physio - physical exercises etc - no chemicals
    Lifestyle Management: changes to diet - avoiding certain foods - low fat, low salt intake etc., giving up smoking, moderating drinking - more exercise etc.

    Now whether or not you consider changes to one's lifestyle as being a treatment of an existing condition depends on how you define 'treatment' in the first place. That's why I consider this issue to be of such importance - because - otherwise you have a situation where someone with a high public profile (and thus significant influence over beginners) makes claims about being "Treatment-Free" for X number of years which the tyro interprets as meaning chemical-free, and so they then omit the use of medication (as recommended) but - believing that this step alone is sufficient - then fail to take any other steps towards combating the varroa mite ... and as so often happens they end-up losing their colonies. We've heard this story so very many times - and all because (I suspect) of this confusion of what constitutes 'Treatment-Free'.
    LJ

    PS. I found Quantum Mechanics to be a doddle compared with Molecular Orbital Bonding Theory. An electron in two places at exactly the same time ... as if.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  9. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Rutland County, Vermont,USA
    Posts
    2,175

    Default

    LJ. Well said. I never concerned myself with the debate over the TF definition before, but you just made the case for me that it has to be revised. J

  10. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,277

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I just learned something. Never heard of perga before. Bee bread. I can see why you would not want anything used on the bees. Cool.
    Here.
    Read on:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ighlight=perga
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,277

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    ....
    If it’s a matter of treating your hive vs having to buy commercial package bees the following year, its better off to treat them-Sam Comfort
    The point he makes in his talks is local sustainability is step 1, You need to get to were your not buying any bees (especially commercial ones) before you can progress.
    I never bought a single package or a nuc.
    Have no such plans either.
    Have no budget for bees at all.
    Have more than enough bees just as we speak (I want some of them die, like I said).
    So now what?


    PS: Sam is an entertaining guy, to be sure; but that's where it stands with me.
    His statement applies, mostly to a commercial honey producer.
    Last edited by GregV; 11-24-2018 at 07:51 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,277

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    gram per gram a spinach leave has more OA then a rhubarb leaf, so lets leave the myths at the garden....
    Look, someone else can test effects of OA/FA concentrations in bee bread on themselves.
    I will pass this science experiment to someone else.
    I don't care to find out, even if this costs me few dead bees.

    It maybe nothing to worry. Maybe it is.
    Well, I already drink too much coffee (lost count of for/against daily votes for coffee by those "who know"; today coffee is good; yesterday it was bad; and so on).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,035

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    LJ
    you are like a dog with a bone and just keep chewing at what the definition for treatment free should be. I am satisfied with the forum definition for this section of the forum and that it means not chemical treatment. I also don't see normal managements that would have been done prior to mites as a spoiler even if some of those actions help with mites, like cut down splits and such.

    It is always welcome for the person looking at someone claiming to be treatment free to ask for more info if he wants to know more and put stuff in his own personal perspective regardless of what fits the forums definition.

    I don't see the need for those definitions being as plain as you always insist they need to be. I could say that i am successfull and you could ask me what that means and when I explain it, you might come to the conclusion that I don't know what success is. On subjective terms, there can be question. On treatment free meaning not using bought products to kill mites is not subjective and a good starting place where if more is needed to be known, it can be ask by the person wanting to know.

    It is not a bad starting standard of a definition where more can be discussed from.

    I do all kinds of things to my hives, just not many things because bees now have mites. I consider myself treatment free under the forum heading. I consider the mad splitter who makes bees by continuing breaking up the hives into splits as treatment free if he does not make those splits due to mites even if he recognizes those splits probably keep his hives safe from mites. He does nothing to kill the mites though.

    Me, I make some splits, some of my hives swarm and I am able to stop some of my hives from swarming. After I steal some honey from them and it gets to october and I think the hives are light, I add a little sugar water to them. I consider all these things as bee keeping. I consider myself treatment free cause I do no actions that my purpose is to use something to kill mites. I don't make the kind of honey per hive that squarepeg does and so what is success and the causes could be a subjective discussion and discussion is what it would take to put a definition to it.

    Where there would be no sujectiveness in my opinion is, I am a bee keeper, I am treatment free, and I still for now have live bees.

    I also do not destroy drone comb or brood or split solely for mite control or cage the queen. I figure under the forum rules that if I did and came on here and said I was treatment free and not using chemicals to kill mites, you could ask more and find out the things that are allowing me to do that. Myself, I just manage the bees for honey or increase and don't worry that they have mites except to watch and see what happens because they have them. I know that mites can kill hives and I watch for it but have not seen it yet (though I am sure I will eventually). I have not put anything into the hive to kill a mite and so I am treatment free. To go the other route and say you have to give a definition for everything you do and consider it a treatment is maybe a bridge to far. I would have to say I treat because I got lucky enough to live where I do and you could do it to if you would treat and move to where I am with the moving being the treatment.

    This forum and its definition seems to be a place to discuss how to keep bees alive with out chemicals with the chemicals being the treatment and the no chemicals being treatment free. It is a perfect definition of treatment free and perfect place to discuss the actions needed to be taken to meet that definition.

    Those other actions that you seem to want to label as treatment seems to be the only reason for this forum as a place to discuss what actions it takes to get to the chemical free definition.

    So, the forum guidelines are clear that this is the place to discuss how to become treatment free (no chemicals) and what actions (your view "treatments") it takes to reach that plateau.

    I see nothing wrong with the definition. Right or wrong, this is my honest view (given with a smile) of the rightness of the forums current definition of treatment free bee discussion.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  14. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    6,614

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I don’t have a problem with the forum’s definition of treatment free. What I do have a problem with is references made by some to “treatment free honey” as if somehow their honey is more pure. One can taint honey by irresponsible treatment but it’s really quite simple to treat at times and with products in which honey purity is never compromised. As a commercial producer I sell to packers who thoroughly test the honey I deliver and they have yet to detect any traces of miticides.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,035

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Jim
    I live about a mile from a gas station and have seen bees many times in the trash cans out by the pumps. I don't do it often but have sprayed my garden for bugs rather then lose plants that I had a lot of work in. I have not yet put anything in my hives to kill mites (though I may someday). That would be the only claim I could make.

    I am too small scale to pay to have my honey tested though it would be interesting. When they have a honey tasting at the bee club, even I don't always think my honey is best.

    I agree with you that if you do it right, then you do it right. The only real claims that can be made are the parts that you do. With testing, the claims become stronger. In my case, I have no ideal of all the things the bees do with out me. I only know what I do and that is really the only claim anyone can make.

    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    1,299

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBee View Post
    Spain, nearly the size of Texas has such an epidemic with varroa that they have become resistant to all treatments except checkmite. Thatís a sad story.
    Thatís a fake story.

  17. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Jim while you may be a stand up guy, some are not... the rash of hive thefts lately shows this
    Using cattle insecticide ear tags, black market/off lable amrtraize, prophylactic antibiotics, and off lable overdosing "to be sure", etc happens.
    The massive amount of theads here on BS about using OA supers on is a clear illustration, as is Ian puting 3 grams of OA in to nucs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3JC...youtu.be&t=261

    While is may or may not be the minority of beekeepers, this kind of pesticide abuse makes it very easy to market TF honey as better
    and honestly I don't know any one who markets there honey as "the same or worse" then there competition.

    Marketing is marketing and there are plenty of people like Greg that will pay the extra costs to not have to worry about extra chemicals in the hive products they consume.
    Last edited by msl; 11-25-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  18. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,035

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Msl
    I do understand your pesticide abuse comment. I thought I would make an informational off topic comment here. I ask randy oliver a question about his findings in his testing of oa residues in honey that he is conducting during his shop towel experimenting. I ask him this on BeeL. He said that his testing is showing that honey content of oa is at normal rates that occur naturally in honey.
    I think the shop towels have between 12 to 18 grams of oa left in the hives long term.
    I do understand your point and just put this here for information that is based with actual testing of honey for residue.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  19. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    2,273

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    ...I sell to packers who thoroughly test the honey I deliver and they have yet to detect any traces of miticides.
    Well Jim, If there's no trace of treatment, I guess that makes your honey 'treatment free' too!

  20. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    6,614

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    That’s a fake story.
    I agree. Check mite (coumaphous) was a flash in the pan in the mite treatment world. It had a life span of about 2years before varroa quickly built a resistance.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  21. #80
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,545

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    River I may have chosen my wording porly.. I did not mean extinction, but a massive die off on a huge scale, and in some case followed by rebuilding of numbers.
    That makes sense. I'm glad that you're on the forum. I did one cutout in a cedar tree by the parking lot of an agricultural research station that had a provenance of at least twenty years. If it had died out and been replaced periodically, it had done so consistently and so quickly as to render the distinction to be without difference. I've done over a hundred cutouts. Some appeared new; some appeared old; some appeared to be new infestations of old hives. I don't see how someone in the area where I live could say definitively that there was a massive die off of feral hives any more than one could say that there wasn't. Other areas are different. I do seem to recall that there was some research related to some Africanized Honey Bee survey traps south of here that showed that feral populations declined and quickly recovered shortly after varroa slipped under the wire. There is also some genetic information that indicates that there has been a surviving line of genetics including A.m.m. and Egyptian bees in feral bees here distinct from the commercial bees. What I do know is that there are a lot of feral honey bees here now.
    David Matlock

Page 4 of 20 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •