WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBee View Post
    Of course Housel is a thing. The literature of the Y in regards to comb has been there since the 1800’s and well documented. Michael Housel merely observed it, researched it, and implemented it. Once you mark your frames the way they are built success is based on putting them back the way they were. It’s as simple as it sounds.
    Poppycock!
    Not sure why it’s such a sensitive subject. Maybe you should talk to Dee. She didn’t implement it in over 1000 hives for nothing. She has nothing to gain by standing by it. Or shake down 1000 hives on over 50,000 5.0mm frames that she made to stop the infestation of trachael mites destroying her hives. Which by the way ended as soon as they were shaken down to 5.0mm. Then turn around with another 50,000 4.9mm frames she made that stopped the varroa problem in its tracks. No one has implemented Housel into more hives then her and her husband. So why ignore so many of these facts.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?



    it's hard to tell who's trolling who here.

    freebee, you may want to read through some of dan's posts. he was being sarcastic.

    still waiting to hear about your personal experience with treatment free.

    echoing what others are saying doesn't do much for this crowd.

    thanks everyone for keeping it civil so far.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #23
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Still wanting to know how the bees can tell if the Y is the right way up in round bottomed cells. It's obviously of critical importance, and even worse, a beekeeper could turn a frame around the wrong way then varroa mites would have a feild day
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.beesource.com/forums/images/smilies/digging.gif[/IMG]

    it's hard to tell who's trolling who here.

    freebee, you may want to read through some of dan's posts. he was being sarcastic.

    still waiting to hear about your personal experience with treatment free.

    echoing what others are saying doesn't do much for this crowd.

    thanks everyone for keeping it civil so far.
    That’s the thing SquarePeg. If echoing what others have spent a large portion of their lives doing isn’t going to work from some of the most successful then what is my personal experience going to do for you. Set up the firing squad. It’s clear where people stand.

    I want to know why some of the most successful people in regards to treatment free beekeeping are pushed aside as if they are quacks yet their methods are so close to being the same you could pass it off as plagerism. Why the resistance? How can they say it works and you say it doesn’t? As my post states it’s not about me. The words aren’t mine. I am on a treatment free topic where I don’t see or hear much about the most successful organic treatment free beekeepers methods. Based on what Dee said, the reaction I’ve received is exactly as she said it would be.

    I’m not here to upset anyone or troll. I just wish people would give their reasoning in regards to their methods as being folly. Because when it comes down to it, whether I own bees or not, it’s working for someone out there. The exact way they stated and the exact way they said to do it. The problem isn’t with me, it’s with those methods and maybe the fact that they have been successful and maybe others tried and haven’t been so successful they’ve chaulked it up as a loss and quackery.

    I thank you for your link and I will do my best to check out your documented experience, all 175 pages.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Ah, a Dee Lusby disciple, with no experience in the subject matter and no bees.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    there will be no firing squads as long as i am moderator freebee.

    as a squarepeg i refuse to identify with this or that group.

    consider odfrank's point in post #6:

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    If Housel Positioning, Small Cell, Treatment Free, and all the teachings of Dee Lusby and Michael Bush were valid gospel truth, they would have swept across the beekeeping world, all beekeepers would have adopted them and no problems would any longer exist.
    in my short tenure hear at beesource i have been witness to many reports of tried and failed, and not so many tried and succeeded.

    oldtimer gave it an honest go following the prescription to the letter i believe.

    you post:

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBee View Post
    I rarely see anyone using methods by those individuals who are easy to find and have excellent documented success not treating in anyway to include artificially feeding your bees.
    unless your definitions of 'excellent', 'documented', and 'success' are very different than mine, those individuals are anything but 'easy to find'.

    there are treatment free success stories out there including the ones you cite. that it's all about cell size and housel postioning doesn't appear to be borne out by the experiences reported here and elsewhere.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Ah, a Dee Lusby disciple, with no experience in the subject matter and no bees.
    JWPalmer my friend! That hurt.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBee View Post
    Not sure why it’s such a sensitive subject. Maybe you should talk to Dee. She didn’t implement it in over 1000 hives for nothing. She has nothing to gain by standing by it. Or shake down 1000 hives on over 50,000 5.0mm frames that she made to stop the infestation of trachael mites destroying her hives. Which by the way ended as soon as they were shaken down to 5.0mm. Then turn around with another 50,000 4.9mm frames she made that stopped the varroa problem in its tracks. No one has implemented Housel into more hives then her and her husband. So why ignore so many of these facts.
    Does having dinner with Dee count?

    You really don't get it, do you. We're all a bunch if ignorant, dummy, beekeepers. Aren't we.

    Well, I overcame Acarapis thirty years, with a simple breeding program. Two years and done. No Housel. No 4.9

    And what has Dee told me about housel...

    When the Ys are down and facing center, a shelf is formed by the Y, and the queen lays an egg on that shelf, and the egg points up, and everything is as it should be. But if those Ys are up and facing center, then that shelf is facing down, and the queen will lay an egg on that shelf, and the egg will point down...causing supercedure.

    AS I said...Poppycock

  10. #29

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    The real answer is to try it yourself.

    Many of us have already read all of the stuff you’ve posted. It’s been hashed, rehashed and the dead horse kicked countless times. It’s been tried numerous times with differing results. Some of the concepts have been tested in controlled studies, conducted by reputable researchers.
    And here we are, long after that dust settled, and a newcomer is pitching it again.
    Try it. Then, in a few seasons come back and report your experience.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #30
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    The question you ask..... "why are there so few beekepers using X method "
    answer-because it doesn't work (od didn't work for many who tryed)

    be it housel, small cell or putting OA in foggers.. the answer is the same... beekepers aren't a bunch of dummys, the ones that came before you wern't stupid.... if in not a "standard" there is likely a very good reason why it isn't

    look to what successful large scale TF beekeepers do, its very little of the methods you suggest.
    all of those "good ideas" didn't save the ferals form being wiped out.

    your 1st post feels off to me, it has what I perceive as a lot of false hoods and 1/2 truths and some out right lies
    as an example
    Spain, nearly the size of Texas has such an epidemic with varroa that they have become resistant to all treatments except checkmite. That’s a sad story.
    they have not developed resistance to OA or FA
    Last edited by msl; 11-22-2018 at 07:44 PM.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post

    And what has Dee told me about housel...

    When the Ys are down and facing center, a shelf is formed by the Y, and the queen lays an egg on that shelf, and the egg points up, and everything is as it should be. But if those Ys are up and facing center, then that shelf is facing down, and the queen will lay an egg on that shelf, and the egg will point down...causing supercedure.

    AS I said...Poppycock
    So, if a person were to accidentally install the foundation "upside down" in all ten frames, this colony would be in a constant state of supercedure. Each time a Queen came back mated and started laying she would be supereded.

    Certain colony death from laying on an "upside down" Y.

    I'm going to try this come Spring.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    FreeBee i've actually got a lot of respect for you in terms of the amount of research you have done.

    The reason for the reaction here is you have bought into one side of the story, but not yet had time to discover the other side, such as the Squarepeg success story, who does not apply all the ideas you have been led to believe are essential. Squarepeg is the most successful treatment free beekeeper that I am aware of, his results surpass the others you have mentioned.

    Couple that with the fact that many people here have spent years being lectured on where they are going wrong, by people who don't have any bees yet, or are just one year in. It gets kinda old.

    But hey, get some bees, get some hands on, and you will find the group here pretty welcoming and ready to discuss your ideas, once they feel you actually know what you are talking about, which is not yet. Just not getting the answer you want does not mean they are your enemies it means their experience has been different. Be glad they are happy to share.

    Enjoy
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-22-2018 at 08:57 PM.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #33
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    So how does housel work on foundationless when the Y’s are sideways?

  15. #34
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    I suggest you research Tim Ives. He is TF and not small cell.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton Huestis View Post
    Greg, ... 5.0-5.2 is what carniolan type bees produce on average. ..
    Sure.
    I recently scored a PDF version of Altapov V. V. "Honey Bee Varieties", 1948. (in Russian).
    The author documents cell size of wild Bashkirian bees sampled from bee trees (native AMM subpopulation in Bashkir region, Russia).

    5.56mm

    Алпатов В. В. (Башкирские борти)
    рабочие ячейки
    5,56 -
    трутневые ячейки
    6,98 -
    These are some huge wild bees out there.
    This is normal for some native northern populations.
    All in all, standardization is not it.

    Now, most all US bees have some Italian and even some AHB in them (like it or not, this is what is happening).
    With that, some random US mutts are probably on a smaller size normally.
    But again, let them build what they want and call it done.
    We are observing active hybridization and random selection processes going all around us right now.
    No need to pretend there are any controls over the bee breeds here - there are none.
    We have a melting pot going and this is totally fine.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #36

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBee View Post
    Iím not here to upset anyone or troll. I just wish people would give their reasoning in regards to their methods as being folly. Because when it comes down to it, whether I own bees or not, itís working for someone out there.
    My first reaction after reading the OP was that it has been so quiet here lately on this TF forum that someone was told /payed to write something really provocative.

    Seems it worked...

  18. #37
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Part of Dee Lusbys ability to keep bees treatment free probably has to do with the type of bee that live in her area.

    For those who have not seen it here is a video of them. Longish video starts a bit slow, recommend skipping forward to around minute 4.00. At around minute 5.00 with a little imagination I can almost hear a voice yelling "HOUSEL HOUSEL".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEp9YqUE7kA
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #38
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Ah, the million dollar question. Unfortunately for me I could not wish my mite problems away no matter which TF guru I bought queens from.......or how much research and raising from the survivors I did.......or only using local swarms. I don't understand why beekeepers still think bees will become immune when every other critter has pest and disease too. To think bee pests will stop with varroa is also wishful thinking it is just a matter of time till something else hits.
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  20. #39
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I would like to say I could not have said it any better than OT.
    In truth I could not have said it as well.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    So, if a person were to accidentally install the foundation "upside down" in all ten frames, this colony would be in a constant state of supercedure. Each time a Queen came back mated and started laying she would be supereded.

    Certain colony death from laying on an "upside down" Y.
    I don't think it works quite like that ... (assuming you were being serious, of course)

    The right way up 'Y' on one side of a comb is mirrored by an upside-down 'Y' on the other side, with an offset of half a cell. Which is why I can't personally see how that supersedure argument pans out - as brood is reared on both sides.

    And, whenever I've caused a viable hive to be queenless, they've drawn emergency queen cells on both sides of a brood comb - as far as I can tell (having never looked for the Y orientation) they don't appear to be showing any preference.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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