WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers? - Page 13
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  1. #241

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    If your definition of a frame of brood is “stick to stick” on a standard deep, my experience (over about 50 years) says anything over about 12 frames just isn’t possible with a single queen hive. Certainly I have seen brood on more frames than this but if you measure it out it will usually figure out to around 12 frames.
    I agree.

    I have had Italian, Carniolan, Caucasica, Buckfast, Black, Primorski, Sahariensis ...etc
    and numerous free mated offspring of them all.
    (42 year beekeeping experience)

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  3. #242
    Join Date
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    North Liberty, IN
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Jim, Agreed. And I probably clarified 60-70% layed out on the 18 frames but people like to cherry pick words.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  4. #243
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Furthermore, when you start using the I have X amount years experience BS. YOU ARE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM TO BEEKEEPING.....
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  5. #244
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    ..... when you start using the I have X amount years experience BS........
    +1000

    After about 5 years of experience in my actual line of business, the experience does not matter anymore.
    Pretty much in any line, after X years the actual experience does not matter.
    What really matters - ability and desire to actually learn anything and keep growing.
    Ability and desire to learn, obviously, vary a lot.

    PS: to be consistent, I removed the "experience BS" out of my signature.
    Last edited by GregV; 12-06-2018 at 08:58 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #245
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Rosebud Missouri
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    3,944

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    If you kept bees and survived and especially if you made a living off bees for 40 years, I would respect almost all of what you have to say as having merit. Must be doing something right. Something that works, works. This does not mean other things would not work also but no denying the parts that do work either.
    I always listen, though me being the one that does my work, I still decide the parts I do.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  7. #246
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    North Liberty, IN
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    42 years of experience and not intelligent enough to know that if bees are melting snow on top you are creating a moisture problem inside.

    Also says Treatment free since 2008, but the dialogue is worse then any hard core treated. Pffff....
    Last edited by squarepeg; 12-06-2018 at 09:19 AM. Reason: deleted personal attack
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  8. #247

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    42 years of experience and not intelligent enough to know that if bees are melting snow on top you are creating a moisture problem inside. Real Mensa candidate there.

    Also says Treatment free since 2008, but the dialogue is worse then any hard core treated. Pffff....
    *edit*
    Last edited by squarepeg; 12-06-2018 at 09:20 AM. Reason: deleted personal attack

  9. #248

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Why do I think that civility in this thread has begun to unravel?
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  10. #249
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    yes, let's be careful about personal attacks please.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #250
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    Seattle WA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    A hundred years ago someone decided to make bees larger. Before that nobody had ever had a problem with varroa.
    Thirty years ago 100 percent of Michael Bush’s conventional bees succumbed to varroa. Once converted to small cell he’s never lost another hive to varroa.
    These are the indisputable facts! Why is this all so difficult to comprehend?
    I am sorry I am coming to this conversation so late. But, the garbage posted above is total BS and I keep seeing this crap repeated over and over. Saying cell size is the cause of the varroa issue is just about as ludicrous as saying the native populations is America only died from smallpox because we changed the size of their houses. Both issues happened because the populations were exposed to something they have never been exposed to before and have no defenses against. Cell size was not the cause. Wild bees did not use foundation or have enlarged cell sizes but they were mostly wiped out too. Varroa was originally limited to Asia where its spread was confined by mountains, deserts and oceans. Once humans started moving bees around the world, they brought varroa with them. Genetics may slow down the losses of bees to varrroa but maybe not. When tracheal mites were brought to Great Britain the black bees Brother Adam loved so much that were native to the islands didn't stand a chance. Perhaps smaller cell size would have saved them too? Since Michael Bush was mentioned above, I will bring him into my comments as well. Yes, Michael Bush has had great success in being treatment free. Is the reason for his success his bees or is there something unique about his location that makes it possible for him? When his bees are sold to other beekeepers around the country, do they have the same success in other locations as Michaels has? Apparently not. If he had truly varroa resistant bees that were resistant everywhere, they would easily sell for $1,000 per nuc and he would include a guarantee that they would never die from varroa. Everyone on this forum, including me, would gladly pay that price and be lining up to buy them. To all the treatment free beekeepers on this forum, I applaud your efforts in finding a natural way to combat the varroa issue. I pray that one of you comes up with truly varroa resistant honeybee that will thrive everywhere in our world.
    Last edited by dudelt; 12-06-2018 at 10:23 AM. Reason: spelling error

  12. #251

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    I am sorry I am coming to this conversation so late. But, the garbage posted above is total BS and I keep seeing this crap repeated over and over.
    Hahahahaha!!!!
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  13. #252
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Tim I am not cherry picking, just using your statement to startling ball rolling. One bee keeper many look at a 45% frame and call it a frame, another may call it a 1/2 frame..
    Even at 60/70% X 18f thats a massive amount of brood, far in excess of what a normal queen will do. Witch seems to be the whole point of your system.
    I was thinking about running few 2 queen set ups this year, but your large hive method has caught my eye

  14. #253
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    yes, let's be careful about personal attacks please.
    It's all good with me, nothing I haven't heard over and over and over again. Lol
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  15. #254
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Tim I am not cherry picking, just using your statement to startling ball rolling. One bee keeper many look at a 45% frame and call it a frame, another may call it a 1/2 frame..
    Even at 60/70% X 18f thats a massive amount of brood, far in excess of what a normal queen will do. Witch seems to be the whole point of your system.
    I was thinking about running few 2 queen set ups this year, but your large hive method has caught my eye
    I've pulled just the Queen out of enough colonies and went back in 4 days later to find plethora of emergency cells. Would that be the case if colony had 2 Queens? I've yet to find two Queens laying in the same brood area.

    At some point I'll setup some 2 Queen systems for further humor.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  16. #255
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    I pray that one of you comes up with truly varroa resistant honeybee that will thrive everywhere in our world.
    this is what motivates me to solicit as much information as possible from as many as possible who are having success off treatments. resistant genetics are probably an important piece of the puzzle, but i believe we'll discover that other factors may be at play as well.

    we have a fair number of folks from various locations who have listed themselves in the 'tf member listing' thread. to those of you who are so inclined please consider starting threads and sharing your experiences with us.

    i'm hoping to devote more time collaborating with the scientists at my state's leading agricultural university insofar as trying to identify what mechanism(s) are at play in my area, but that's not likely to happen until at least 2020.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #256
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I've pulled just the Queen
    right... Witch leaves the system, or the stock
    As your showing people have replicated your results thousands of miles away, it lends one to to think it may be the system, hence the interest.

    Would that be the case if colony had 2 Queens
    In a hive that big, maby, maby not.

    1988 Michael Palmer found 7% of his hives had 2 queens, by 2004 it was 30%, he feels it was a trait he was selecting for
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I've actually kept track twice over the years, wondering how often this happens. In 1988 (aproximately...all the years are running together) I requeened 100 colonies. Direct introduction. Kill old queen, introduce new queen in introduction type cage. Leave new queen corked in cage for 3 days. Return to hive, and pull cage. From actions of bees on outside of introduction cage, you can tell if queen has or has not been accepted. Where queen has been accepted, the bees will be feeding her, walking lightly on the cage, and not show agression toward her. If the queen has not been accepted, the bees on the outside of the introduction cage will be gripping on tightly to the screen, and humped over as it to sting the queen. These colonies will almost always have multiple queens. Of the 100 colonies I requeened that year, on that round, 7 had multiple queens. Now that's when I used to requeen everything, regularly.

    Fast forward to 2004. I requeened 50 colonies with some stock I bought in Quebec...as possible breeding stock. These were queens bred for low mite fall, and I wanted to see how they would do. Between 1988 and 2004, my beekeeping management changed considerably. I gave up requeening by the calendar, and learned to look upon successful supercedure as a good thing, and not as a failure of some kind. Of those 50 colonies, I found 17 with multiple queens. That's 30%. Not sure, but my gut tells me that I have been selecting for colonies that supercede successfully.
    Last edited by msl; 12-06-2018 at 11:38 AM.

  18. #257

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    *edit*
    I just want to remind readers that the one starting personal attacks was not me, I was named * because my hives, in his opinion, were having melting snow pouring on top of bees.

    My hives have green house plastic on top and 5 cm polyurethan sheet on top of that, and 18 mm plywood walls. No water dropping on bees. This person calling me * just did not know this.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 12-06-2018 at 11:32 AM. Reason: in the spirit of moving on

  19. #258
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Has anyone close contacts with Chris Baldwin? How is he doing?
    good question. not much comes up on google search.

    tim mcfarline is another with a fairly decent sized tf operation. he posts here from time to time:

    https://www.mcfarlineapiaries.com

    if anyone knows tim personally see if you can encourage him to share his experiences here.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #259
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    The TF forum just stepped back into 5 years ago.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  21. #260

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    if anyone knows tim personally see if you can encourage him to share his experiences here.
    There might be some Mensa candidates who know him.

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