WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers? - Page 8
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  1. #141
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    Jan 2012
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I have not read this thread completely yet, but wanted to respond to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post

    Let's put some downriggers on this troll; Someone (not me) call Lauri and tell her she has been doing it wrong all these years. She puts foundation in sideways.

    Alex
    Actually, that is not correct. Not sure why you think I do that?

    I do cut foundation in half and insert half a sheet in the center of frames, but it is the correct direction.

    P7020257_zpsf87c4b18.jpg

    P2150129.jpg

    P2150137.jpg

    Below is an example of a newly mated spring queen, not interested in rearing drones so the rite cell foundation in the center is laid up with brood, large cell foundationless areas on each side filled with nectar.

    P5190280 5-19-15.jpg

    When started making mini frames years ago for mating nucs, I did accidentally install some foundation in sideways. I found they avoid using it for rearing brood if they possibly can. It took me a bit to finally realize what I had done and why they were avoiding the frames. You'll find in wild comb building, there is a fair amount of oddly angles cells. They are usually very large cells and I rarely see brood in any of them. I there is, it is usually drone brood.


    And while appreciating the theories-experiments which do sometimes shed light on better or unique management, (I certainly have been known for reinventing the wheel at times) I try to stick with the realities of the nature of bees, climate/ weather extremes and other occasional challenges one faces from year to year.
    I had the unique opportunity to do a LOT of experimenting over the years, as I had few losses, too many hives and had the freedom to 'fail'. I rarely did however and learned a tremendous amount about bees behavior and management is a very short period of time.

    But when it comes to cell direction, I'll say, the more uniform frames you give them to work with, the more uniform the end result. Lots of young healthy bees trumps a lot of the small issues that humans tend to fuss over.

    efe.jpg
    Last edited by Lauri; 11-30-2018 at 09:49 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

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  3. #142
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
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    1,379

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    We were talking about Housel positioning. I was trying to be humorous. It just never seems to come across. I seem to never learn. I apologize if I offended you.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  4. #143
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
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    866

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Fusion_power: I would love to glean from your experience with narrow-frame. I tried to PM you but it said your inbox is full- any chance you would be willing to share your insights and lessons learned?

    "I have 41 years experience with narrow frames since I subscribed to Gleanings in 1977 and the first issue I received had an article by Charles Koover about using 31 mm frames. I can tell you all the ins and outs and good and bad about narrow frame beekeeping. It is indeed a very useful modification of the hive but it brings management issues when drone cells are built into the edges of frames. I use narrow frames today and am thoroughly pleased with them. If I had 1000 hives, I would want all of them on narrow frames."
    Last edited by Litsinger; 11-30-2018 at 11:46 AM. Reason: Attributing quotation to original source

  5. #144
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    2,168

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Fusion_power: I would love to glean from your experience with narrow-frame.....
    Me too, actually.
    But all you need to do - search BS.

    FP already published lots of ideas and observations, and put lots of time and effort into it.
    I would not want to have him repeat himself over and over until I myself give it an honest read first.
    The is a good assortment of links he just posted above (including the PDF of the original Dadant book) to be processed as-is.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Ukrainian frame experimentation.

  6. #145
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    9,883

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    We were talking about Housel positioning. I was trying to be humorous. It just never seems to come across. I seem to never learn. I apologize if I offended you.

    Alex
    Maybe Laurie didn't, but I used to put it in sideways, slightly humerous story here.


    Years ago when I was a commercial beekeeper and the people I worked for also sold queens and packages, I was the guy who looked after the breeder colonies, the grafting, and cell raising. The method was cut up foundation and hang a smallish piece in the centre of the queen compartment. The next day this would be drawn and loaded with eggs so was switched out to a queenless section of the hive to hold until ready to graft from, and replaced with a new one, this was done every day, 7 days a week, ensuring that downstream there was a constant daily stream of newly emerged eggs of exactly the right age for grafting, or in some cases, cut cell.


    So one day a group of earnest faced hobbyists came out for a tour, and I demonstrated how we got the eggs. One of them noticed the way the foundation was cut and that it went into the breeder colony sideways, he asked "Hey, what about the Housel position?" At that time, I had never heard of the Housel position or even considered it and had to admit i had no idea what he was talking about, yikes, I could see his opinion of me deflate!

    Anyhow, the queens raised from these combs were fine, and if by chance a comb was left and the brood developed, it seemed normal also.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  7. #146
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    ROFL
    I always wondered why there were 2 strips, never caught on they were shallows sideways

  8. #147
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    LOL, you have amazing search powers MSL
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  9. #148
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    read it years ago, and the 2 strips allways struck me funny, enuff that when you mentioned it the light went on lol
    I used to raize queens with cut strips wrapped to top bars with fishing line

  10. #149
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Vernon, AZ. USA
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    627

    Default

    There are lots of beekeepers that Were treatment free. But after applying may of the things in your novella that you posted, they do not wish to speak of the wholesale failure of much of that.

    What works in one area is useless in another. I catch feral bees in an area with no commercial farming, or beekeeping. They have varroa, often. They live on due to making many smaller swarms. An africanised/ apis ceareana bee trait. It isnt due to people interfering.

    To make a larger managed hive, I must kill the mites.

  11. #150
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    Apr 2014
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    Dickson TN
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I have a friend who is a commercial beekeeper in Southern Africa. He states the reason African honey bees can exist with varroa mites is when the mite population gets to high they swarm and his swarm 6 to 8 times a year.

  12. #151
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Drone View Post
    I have a friend who is a commercial beekeeper in Southern Africa. He states the reason African honey bees can exist with varroa mites is when the mite population gets to high they swarm and his swarm 6 to 8 times a year.
    Commercial beek and his bees swarm 6-8 times a year.... Hmm.

    Does not add up.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Ukrainian frame experimentation.

  13. #152
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    Jan 2005
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    2,963

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Litsinger, this is already in the list. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  14. #153
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    Dickson TN
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Commercial beek and his bees swarm 6-8 times a year.... Hmm.

    Does not add up.
    Read up on African honey bees it's the nature of the beast. Some commercial operators keep Capes some keep African and some keep both the latter struggle.

  15. #154
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Drone View Post
    Read up on African honey bees it's the nature of the beast. Some commercial operators keep Capes some keep African and some keep both the latter struggle.
    The swarming nature of the African bee is no news.
    I am sure they keep both Scuts and Capes in South Africa (not much other choices anyway).

    I just don's see how one can be a commercial AND have 6-8 swarms annually too (per a hive, as it appears per the context).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Ukrainian frame experimentation.

  16. #155
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    I can only imagine myself GregV. Use of excluders helps is my understanding to be one of several methods. He says hive manipulations are tricky and can cause them to vacate. He would give anything to import European honey bee queens but the imports are banned. He had someone that smuggled some Italian queens into his area and said introduction was impossible not one queen survived. The gentlemen is a swarm capture expert to say the least and have learned a lot from him in regards to swarm capture.

  17. #156
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Drone View Post
    I can only imagine myself GregV. ...
    OK, I suppose I can see a way forward with multi-swarms, actually.
    It is pretty common in Russia to create so-called "dumped swarms" for pure honey production.

    If have too many swarms on hand at once and unsure what to do, you can create a "dumped swarm".
    This is especially handy case when you have several small swarms (say the Africans) and you have a main flow coming up or ongoing.

    * you prepare a large hive configuration to hold lots of bee and lots of incoming honey
    * dump into it 2-3-4 (however many) swarms - use whatever the combining method works
    * provide enough storage for them to bring maximum amounts of honey quickly
    * you disregard the brood/queen issues - just letting them handle that

    Basically, such "dumped swarms" are pure honey enterprise until the swarm laborers die off (in about a month) with disregard for their long-term management.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Ukrainian frame experimentation.

  18. #157
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    394

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton Huestis View Post
    I suggest you research Tim Ives. He is TF and not small cell.
    Definitely not Small Cell. 5.4 RiteCell.
    And still Treatment free and still haven't fed a colony since 2006. Just more hives and severely bottlenecked for bigger buildings.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  19. #158
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    howdy tim. how was your 2018?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #159
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    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    394

    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    howdy tim. how was your 2018?
    Good, except growing pain. Which is the problem with growing too Quickly. Need a building with hot room big enough for 2000 supers.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  21. #160
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: WHERE are the real treatment free beekeepers?

    good to hear tim, way to go. could be worse.

    can you give us a ballpark figure on how many other beekeepers in your area, (regardless of hive count), are using your methods and having similar results?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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