clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience - Page 11
Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 910111213 LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 244
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    160

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    CLONG: FYI - I have 9 hives now which have not had a top vent for two years plus, winter and summer but do have insulated top covers. This past year it was no top vent and a 2-inch XPS top cover. My inner "covers" and 12 oz duck cloth or canvass. I have measured inside temperatures inside two hives in the sun on the hottest 93-95F day here. Values never went above 100F. I do OAV treat and use drone brood removal and monitoring for Varroa.

    The bees seem to love and heavily propolize the duck cloth. I am heading for insulated hives winter and summer with only a bottom entrance with screened bottom boards.

    Thanks for the clue leading me to "White Rose Research Online". It seems everything I think of or deduce about my hives Mitchell is putting a physics paaper on the subject supporting my conclusions. It is scary to implement contrarian thermal and humidity designs. So far I have not killed a colony due to hive design change. I like your insulated super approach.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #202
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    CLONG: FYI - I have 9 hives now which have not had a top vent for two years plus, winter and summer but do have insulated top covers. This past year it was no top vent and a 2-inch XPS top cover. My inner "covers" and 12 oz duck cloth or canvass. I have measured inside temperatures inside two hives in the sun on the hottest 93-95F day here. Values never went above 100F. I do OAV treat and use drone brood removal and monitoring for Varroa.

    The bees seem to love and heavily propolize the duck cloth. I am heading for insulated hives winter and summer with only a bottom entrance with screened bottom boards.

    Thanks for the clue leading me to "White Rose Research Online". It seems everything I think of or deduce about my hives Mitchell is putting a physics paaper on the subject supporting my conclusions. It is scary to implement contrarian thermal and humidity designs. So far I have not killed a colony due to hive design change. I like your insulated super approach.
    Robert,

    It is good to know we're on the same path. Going contrarian is hard, but then folks like Langstroth and Wedmore advocated for some of these methods decades ago.

    Last year was the first year I went year-round with no top vent, except for the biggest hive. I had a notched inner cover on it for several weeks. Next year if I have at least two big hives, I plan to leave one closed full time. Was the 100F temp at the top of the hive?

    All my hives have 1 1/2" solid bottom boards with plexiglass inner covers up top. I love the idea of the propolized cloth cover, but I also like looking in on the bees, especially in winter. This next year, I am going to put a canvas cover on at least one hive. It will be fun to see what the bees do with it.

    The White Rose link was just a stab in the dark. I was writing something and I wanted to include the reference to that study. I didn't think I would find the complete paper, but there it was!
    Last edited by clong; 12-11-2019 at 02:29 PM. Reason: missing word

  4. #203
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    CLong:

    How is everything going in your yard these days?

    Merry Christmas to you and your family.

    Russ
    Russ,

    Thanks for the good wishes. I had a November abscond (couldn't find any mite frass ??), and a dink that is getting dinkier by the day. (Bad queen, I'm pretty sure) So, I am soon to be 5/7. The other 5 look good right now. I'll say more later.

  5. #204
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Here is a recent article by Derek Mitchell on modern beehive design which is based on his latest research:

    https://phys.org/news/2019-09-honey-bees-hives.html

  6. #205
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,191

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure. The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

    So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  7. #206
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure. The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

    So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?
    Ha! The way I figure it, starting from 2010, we should have about 1% of our colonies left. Hmmm....

  8. #207
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,474

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Quote - "Honey bees are under extreme pressure. The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

    So by 2 1/2 years later they were all gone?
    Unsure why the "expansion" side of the equation is always lost.
    No need to cry that "bees are dying"; they are not.
    Are the cries by design or by ignorance?


    In beekeeping equation there are ALWAYS two sides (just like in chemistry, for analogy):
    - the loss side
    - the expansion side.

    In a normal situation the both sides always balance each other (eventually).

    50% loss is nothing - as long as it is followed by 100% expansion/recovery.
    As in:
    -started with 10
    -lost 5 (loss of 50%)
    -rebuilt to 10 (gain of 100%).

    Lost 5; gained 5.

    Simple shtuff.
    How bees operate.
    Always have been.

    PS: an exception of course - systematic, persistent, and effective biosphere elimination as in now (where everything is systematically killed - this is outside of a normal species adaptation scope - everything goes dead)
    Last edited by GregV; 12-11-2019 at 01:53 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #208
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,191

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    I'm not sure why it is always lost either. Take a look at the wording, which is typical.

    "The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

    Now in English, spoken correctly, if something is declining at 40%, that means that at the end, there is 40% less.

    If we are going to say that population fell by 40% but was then rebuilt to the original level, the rate of decline, was zero.

    I expect to see this kind of sensationalism in the newspaper, but not in an article by a guy proposing some research he wants taken seriously.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #209
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    764

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I'm not sure why it is always lost either. Take a look at the wording, which is typical.

    "The number of honey bee colonies in the US has been declining at an average rate of almost 40% since 2010".

    Now in English, spoken correctly, if something is declining at 40%, that means that at the end, there is 40% less.

    If we are going to say that population fell by 40% but was then rebuilt to the original level, the rate of decline, was zero.

    I expect to see this kind of sensationalism in the newspaper, but not in an article by a guy proposing some research he wants taken seriously.
    So How can he get a grant with out sensationalism?? in Greg's example 10 to 5,, +5 to 10 again "I need a grant to study Zero Percent decline" he is not going to be funded.
    Or it may be the new Math.... IMO its follow the money.
    GG

  11. #210
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,191

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Nail on head Grey Goose
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  12. #211
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    160

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    CLONG: Yes, the temperature of 100F was at the top of the hive. The cluster stayed at 95F. It is fundamentally about managing humidity via temperature control. The toiugh day for a colony is when the temperatures are high, say 90, and the relative humidity is high, say 90% the bees do have much margin to work with and drying honey slows up. I visualize uncapped honey being a buffer for high RH as well as my pine-wood boxes. THere in nothign stopping hydroscopic honey from reabsorbing water when uncapped. Propolis appears to resist water permeation but allows water vapor to pass through (Gortex like behavior).

    Bufferring by absorbing and later releasing water has been seen in reports when trying to weigh hives to determine honey consumption - overwhelms the consumption data during some test periods. I am looking to buy quality humidity and temperature sensors at a reasonable price so I can monitor multiple points in a hive. I just might be able to prove to myself that conservation of energy or honey applies all year as implied by Mitchell.

    I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.

    Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?

  13. #212
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.

    Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?
    Robert,

    You've really go me thinking about flexible inner covers now. Being able to peel back a little at a time, would be very helpful.

    I don't do any kind of varroa control. I hope to write down my thoughts on why sometime in the next couple of months.

  14. #213
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,448

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    The article can be found here:
    CLong:

    Thank you for posting this article. I finally had the opportunity to read it, and beyond the practical discussions about humidity and varroa fecundity I was struck by the discussion right at the outset- namely that of an 'extended phenotype':

    "The phenotype, the physical reflection of the gene, cannot be limited to purely the biological aspects of the organism itself because it directly causes change to the environment around it, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics and mass and energy conservation. For most organisms the realm of their influence extends only a very small distance from the biological issue of the animal. However for those in which this goes beyond the usual, and their reach into environment is significant, then it is termed an “extended phenotype”. The classic case cited is of beavers flooding areas with their dams. For honey bee colonies, perhaps because of the relationship with man the extended nature of this super organism’s phenotype has been overlooked, and viewed as a simple shelter and container of honey and brood. In contrast to the beaver’s dam, which constrains a single visible fluid, some of the fluids involved in a honey bee colony’s nest: air, water vapour, water liquid and carbon dioxide are invisible to human eyes. These fluids are not passively restrained, but actively moved and changed in temperature and physical state within this extended phenotype."

    I'll have to chew on this concept for awhile, but I think the point he is trying to make is that the super-organism's behavior is both impacting and being impacted by the volume they are located in. Makes intuitive sense to me.

    Thanks again for posting.

    Russ

    p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  15. #214
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    CLong:
    I'll have to chew on this concept for awhile, but I think the point he is trying to make is that the super-organism's behavior is both impacting and being impacted by the volume they are located in. Makes intuitive sense to me.
    I've always felt there is an over-reliance on reductionism in modern science. It is useful in understanding honey bees, but it should never exclude the holistic view.

    After skimming the paper, and thinking back on my own observations, how is all the water removed when a hive is desiccating nectar? I've never observed water running out of a hive. Do the bees carry it out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.
    Russ,

    I plan to write on the beeyard this weekend. I have been buried lately. We are in the process of searching for a new pastor at my church.

  16. #215
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    764

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    CLONG: Yes, the temperature of 100F was at the top of the hive. The cluster stayed at 95F. It is fundamentally about managing humidity via temperature control. The toiugh day for a colony is when the temperatures are high, say 90, and the relative humidity is high, say 90% the bees do have much margin to work with and drying honey slows up. I visualize uncapped honey being a buffer for high RH as well as my pine-wood boxes. THere in nothign stopping hydroscopic honey from reabsorbing water when uncapped. Propolis appears to resist water permeation but allows water vapor to pass through (Gortex like behavior).

    Bufferring by absorbing and later releasing water has been seen in reports when trying to weigh hives to determine honey consumption - overwhelms the consumption data during some test periods. I am looking to buy quality humidity and temperature sensors at a reasonable price so I can monitor multiple points in a hive. I just might be able to prove to myself that conservation of energy or honey applies all year as implied by Mitchell.

    I find the canvass cloth vey helpful when trying to check or observe in cold or hot weather. It keeps the bees quite and I can peel back selected areas. Also, I can poke a thermometer through it check a nuc cluster in winter.

    Do you perform capped drone removal as a Varroa control mehhod?
    Robert, does your canvass cloth hang out past the edge even a little bit, If so wicking could remove moisture as well. Center of the cloth damp,, edge out in the sun and /or wind

  17. #216
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    p.s. I look forward to hearing more about the goings-on in your yard this year when you have time.
    Russ,

    Seven hives made it to the starting line for this winter. I use Nov 1st as the beginning of the winter season.

    I got the equivalent of 8 to 9 4'x8' sheets of 2" Rigid foam insulation given to me recently, already painted on one side. I am going to insulate a few boxes and add them to a couple of hives next spring. I am curious to know if the bees will begin making white wax earlier in the season. Also, I plan to put a frame feeder into one hive stocked with water, and see if that stimulates earlier brood-rearing.

    Hive Report
    1803 Piper: 3 10F meds. Good population. Only fly on the warmer days. They seem to hunker down in winter. They were spending a lot of time at the top of the stack until last week. With colder weather setting in, they moved down to box #2. Added 2 1-lb sugar blocks on 12/10/19

    1811 Paradise: 3 10F meds. Absconded in early Nov. Not a bee to be seen. One frame with a few isolated closed brood cells left. I couldn't see any mite frass, but light was poor. It is sealed up. I intend to make a much closer inspection of the brood frames sometime soon.

    1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean. I wanted to put sugar on this hive as well, but they were literally, a pain in the neck. One got under my veil somehow. They didn't get any sugar. They are getting a new matriarch this spring.

    1902 Bookworm:3 8F meds. The bees are hunkered down in box #2. They fly much more than their next-door neighbors in Piper.

    1903 Mims: 2 10F meds. Started a little later in the season. Really good-looking cluster.

    1904 Piper 2: 1 10F med. Baseball-sized cluster at best. The queen was made later in the season. Never has laid a good pattern. I might try R10 insulation on top of R5 just for kicks. I doubt it will help.

    1905 Elisha: 2 10f meds. Descended from first swarm, Elijah. Next-door neighbor of Mims, and looks equally populous and healthy.


    Oh yeah, Gregv. 1/2" hardware cloth on all entrances! No more dumb winter management.

    At this point, I would call the winter survival rate 5/7. We'll see if that holds until April 1st.

  18. #217
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,474

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    Russ,
    ..........

    1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean. I wanted to put sugar on this hive as well, but they were literally, a pain in the neck. One got under my veil somehow. They didn't get any sugar. They are getting a new matriarch this spring.
    .........

    Oh yeah, Gregv. 1/2" hardware cloth on all entrances! No more dumb winter management.
    .
    Good deal.

    RE:
    1901 Westley: Lively, and still mean....
    What is the history of the 1901?
    If the survival history of the line is reasonably long, I almost want to salvage your queen.

    FYI - my best bees so far are coming from a very mean line; they have mellowed down after 2-3 turn overs (the original traits got watered down, for bad or good).
    I personally don't pinch a single queen; mites/winter should do it - not me.
    Not my call to be going around pinching the queens.

    If you still mean pinching the meany in spring (if she is still around), consider giving it away instead to some idiot like me.
    As of me, I would keep her as an expansion material (keep her in a smallish nuc and keep taking away the daughters; a small nuc will not hurt you - just don't let them grow big).
    Lively material is good material.
    Sleepy material ends being junk, more often than not.
    Last edited by GregV; 12-13-2019 at 12:27 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #218
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,448

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    I've always felt there is an over-reliance on reductionism in modern science. It is useful in understanding honey bees, but it should never exclude the holistic view.
    I'm with you on this CLong. It certainly seems that the more we learn about a particular biological concept, the more we appreciate the incredible complexity and interconnected nature of all the myriad factors that make up life.

    As regards EHB's it seems that they benefit from being highly adaptable to a wide-range of variable constraints placed on them and often seem to persist despite our best efforts .

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    We are in the process of searching for a new pastor at my church.
    This sounds like a bi-vocational opportunity for you! I am convinced that when done well and with the right motives, the role of pastor is one of the most difficult and under-appreciated vocations one can take on. I do sincerely appreciate all the pastors I know who so tirelessly serve in this calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post

    Seven hives made it to the starting line for this winter. I use Nov 1st as the beginning of the winter season.

    ...

    At this point, I would call the winter survival rate 5/7. We'll see if that holds until April 1st.
    I enjoyed reading your update, and I am watching with great anticipation to see how your experiments with additional insulation and in-hive water turn out.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  20. #219
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Good deal.

    RE:
    What is the history of the 1901?
    If the survival history of the line is reasonably long, I almost want to salvage your queen.

    If you still mean pinching the meany in spring (if she is still around), consider giving it away instead to some idiot like me.
    As of me, I would keep her as an expansion material (keep her in a smallish nuc and keep taking away the daughters; a small nuc will not hurt you - just don't let them grow big).
    Lively material is good material.
    Sleepy material ends being junk, more often than not.
    Gregv,

    "1. 1901 Westley was a nice-looking swarm that had evaporated to about ¼ its original size by the time my trainee and I got there. It was queenless. When I stored them at my house, they went through one very cold night in the trap. When I took a peek, they looked terrible. My wife invited them into our sunroom, where it took 24 hours for them to come back to life. I think she may have slipped in a large chocolate-covered pill. I added some eggs from Piper, and shook in additional bees, and installed them into a four frame nuc. The queen cells have been broken down now. No sign of a queen at the last inspection."

    Westley has a daughter queen from Piper. Made in April,2019. Piper is proven survivor stock. She descends from a cutout done from an abandoned house 10-15 years ago. I have been waiting patiently for her to start laying some "nice" bees, but I haven't seen any yet.

    I will seriously think about taking your advice, and see if this queen produces in the spring. If the hive survives, and makes 100# of honey, I think I can overlook a little attitude problem. Then, I'll move her to a nuc like you suggested.

    Thanks.

  21. #220
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Richmond, VA, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Chicken Feeder Report: 01/04/2020

    IMG_4370.jpg
    There have been a lot bees congregating around the chicken feeder over the last week or so. Yesterday there were 50 bees at any given time. The beeyard is about 75 yards away. The two swarms caught early last spring, 1901 and 1902 were flying a bit, but not returning with any pollen. Same with Piper.

    Chicken Feed in Baskets.jpg
    The two smaller hives that were created later in the season, 1903 and 1905, were both hitting the chicken feeder. They were bringing in plenty of pale tan stuff in their baskets. I guess they are desperate. Perhaps with their later starts, they didn't collect enough pollen. I got some pollen substitute and lured them away from the chicken feeder. If they are going to eat artificial pollen, I would rather they gather quality stuff over chicken feed.
    Last edited by clong; 01-05-2020 at 05:05 PM.

Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 910111213 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •