clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience - Page 10
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  1. #181
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    .....

    I've also attached a picture of the roughed-up interior of a hive body that has been on a hive for 3 months. There really isn't very much propolis. The bees only coated the areas that have scaly or "hairy" surfaces. It was roughed up with 24-grit sanding disk. If anyone has suggestions on how to rough up the walls so that the bees are more inclined to deposit propolis, I would be grateful.

    Attachment 50443
    In my opinion, this is the genetic propolizing trait of certain bees that is really the "elephant in the room" (#1).
    Well discussed but gets ignored due to the US bee melting pot situation.
    #2 - most all bees will propolise the strategic places that really affect the micro-climate control - the ceiling is one such place.
    Install burlap directly over the frames and watch what happens - the fabric will be plugged very heavily and ASAP so to make it air/moisture impermeable.
    Solid vertical wall faces are not the place to propolise so to critically control the hive temperature/humidity as they are mostly are air/moisture proof as-is.
    It really is waste of valuable resource that takes lots of time and effort to harvest (propolise) to be applying it at random right and left.

    You can rough the walls all you want, it not the really the biggest deal.
    Am not sure why they even dwell on this "wall propolising" thing (a typical tangent, I feel).
    Just google up different hive systems and try them ALL and watch how it really works.
    For sure - the skeps or straw-walled hives where the wall propolising would be required to make the walls moisture/air proof so to make the habitable.

    This standard, commercial box-hive centric research of anything and everything sends wrong signals.
    Last edited by GregV; 07-30-2019 at 01:55 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #182
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    In my opinion, this is a genetic trait of certain bees that is really the "elephant in the room" (#1).
    #2 - most all bees will propolise the strategic places that really affect the micro-climate control - the ceiling is such place.
    Install burlap directly over the frames and watch what happens.
    Walls are not the place to propolise so to critically control the hive temperature/humidity.

    You can rough the walls all you want, it not the really the biggest deal.
    Am not sure why they even dwell on this "wall propolising" thing.
    Just google up different hive systems and try them ALL and watch (for sure - the skeps or straw-walled hives where the wall propolising would be required to make the walls moisture/air proof).

    This standard, commercial box-hive centric research of anything and everything sends wrong signals.
    Gregv,

    Yep, you got me. If the bees really needed to propolize the walls, they would do so. Why do I think I need to induce them to do so?

    I have one poly hive. They did fine last winter and this spring. And they don't even leave a mark, except when they want to make a bridge from the comb to the wall.

    You just saved me a lot of work this winter!

  4. #183
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    I'm not satisfied with the doors. I would like one that slides, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.
    They still look really well done for homemade. Good work.

  5. #184
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    Gregv,

    Yep, you got me. If the bees really needed to propolize the walls, they would do so. Why do I think I need to induce them to do so?

    I have one poly hive. They did fine last winter and this spring. And they don't even leave a mark, except when they want to make a bridge from the comb to the wall.

    You just saved me a lot of work this winter!
    You are welcome.
    I do get irked by this "researchers" a lot.
    They just need to go away to travel the world for 2-3 years; and leave us alone.
    I am sure, the tunes will change A LOT once the "researchers" come back.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #185
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Chris, do your robber screens have an upper entrance? That is the key to having them work. These are nuc robber screens I made last year. Note the 3/8" by 3/4" top entrance and no bottom entrance. They are very effective at preventing robbing.

    20180205_220124.jpg
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #186
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Chris, do your robber screens have an upper entrance? That is the key to having them work. These are nuc robber screens I made last year. Note the 3/8" by 3/4" top entrance and no bottom entrance. They are very effective at preventing robbing.

    20180205_220124.jpg
    JW,

    No, they don't. I have cleats holding my insulation on. The screens can't be any taller than 3" or so, to fit under the cleat. The cool think is, I can slide it right under the cleat, and it stays tight.

    I might look into a upper right-side entrance. Perhaps one could be created on the front edge of the top. If you have any ideas, I'm all ears.

    Thank for the good advice.

  8. #187
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You are welcome.
    I do get irked by this "researchers" a lot.
    They just need to go away to travel the world for 2-3 years; and leave us alone.
    I am sure, the tunes will change A LOT once the "researchers" come back.
    For example, here (listen T. Seeling talking about propolis starting about 50:00 and on):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc

    Well what is totally omitted (by design OR by not understanding of the basic building principles; the latter I think) is - the rotten wood is basically a natural sponge.
    This sponge both takes in and emits out lots of moisture, depending on the ongoing gradients.
    The rotten wood is very good moisture sink.
    For example, in summer it will absorb lots of moisture and hold it (this will be messing up with normal bee colony moisture controls).
    In winter it will be giving away that moisture (not good) and/or freezing solid IF fully saturated.
    This sponge is working counter to what the bees want to have within the nest.

    And so - living in ice-walled cavity is a death sentence to the bees or approaching to the same.
    And so - the bees are propolising the woody sponge completely shut so to insulate from it - so that they themselves are able to control the micro-climate of the cavity.
    This is very similar to how I want my own fiberglass/cellulose insulation in the walls - I want it dry.
    There is vapor impermeable membrane in my walls between the spongy wall insulation and the conditioned space (this is by design) - exactly what bees are trying to achieve also (by creating very similar impermeable membrane between the leaving space and the spongy and hydro-philippic rotten wood.

    Well, listen to Seeley (who is referencing Spivac) about how the wild bees mean it to propolise their nest so they are healthier.

    What?
    Now, this kinds of nonsense I don't want to hear coming from the researches.
    First and for most - propolise is a building material, bee cement and bees use it for what it is - to cement things together and to cement holes shut.
    Depending on the location, the propolise has totally different make up and different "medicinal" properties because of this.
    Why no one discusses then differences between birch-based propolise vs. poplar-based propolise, etc. etc.
    Which locations less or more healthy propolis?
    Which locations are better/worth for the mite tolerance because of the propolis source differences?
    Am I crazy?

    The "medicinal" propolise properties are just an incidental side-affect and there is nothing else to it.
    For the fact, birch buds are commonly collected in Euro in spring before they open up for exactly that - medicinal usage.
    Bees just use the conveniently sticky resins from those same birch buds for their building projects and all it is to it.

    As well it was pointed out how some bees just don't do the propolise (the Egyptians) and yet are very healthy.
    I suppose the Egyptians (the bees) do not have to deal with the moisture much, living in Egypt.

    PS: to be sure, I did enjoy watching the lecture - good stuff (minus my gripes)
    Last edited by GregV; 07-31-2019 at 08:24 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #188
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    For example, here (listen T. Seeling talking about propolis starting about 50:00 and on):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc
    Great video, GregV. I appreciate you posting. Did you have the opportunity to watch the part I video with Mr. Roger Patterson?

    At about the 58 minute mark he spends quite a lot of time talking about his extensive observations with propolis in un-managed colonies. Sounds like his observations square with your thoughts.

  10. #189
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Great video, GregV. I appreciate you posting. Did you have the opportunity to watch the part I video with Mr. Roger Patterson?

    At about the 58 minute mark he spends quite a lot of time talking about his extensive observations with propolis in un-managed colonies. Sounds like his observations square with your thoughts.
    Actually, watching the Part I RIGHT NOW!
    I really like this fellow, Roger Patterson a lot.
    He immediately raises lots of uncomfortable facts that oppose the ideas pushed by the researchers.
    Like the natural bee density is said by T. Seeley to be ~1/km square.
    Well, like I was saying - the density is dictated by the real estate availability (nothing wrong with taking a tree nearby IF there is a hole in it; but the chances of that are not high).
    Right there in the Part I lecture, go to 1:04:00 - a great example of how bees will naturally nest right next to each other (if an opportunity presents itself they will do exactly that).

    Mr. Patterson did say that the bees probably propolise the hive inside for health reasons.
    I am unconvinced.
    Just today as I was pulling up my burlap rags from the top bars, I again observed and thought of it.
    In my setting, 80-90% of the propolise by volume is stuffed into the burlap and the top bar cracks so to control the air/moisture from going up and through.
    They put it where it is needed for micro-climate control before anything else.
    Last edited by GregV; 07-31-2019 at 10:58 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #190
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Mr. Patterson did say that the bees probably propolise the hive inside for health reasons.
    I am unconvinced.
    Good feedback, GregV. I wonder (just a guess on my part) that this type of interaction shows the myriad dynamic interactions of the created order. In other words, whether the bees 'know' if propolis is good for them or not, they are collecting it by necessity and gaining a side benefit thereby. Kind of like I eat fruit because I need to eat, it tastes good, and I get the side benefit of the bioflavonoids along the way? Just speculating.

  12. #191
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    ....... Kind of like I eat fruit because I need to eat, it tastes good, and I get the side benefit of the bioflavonoids along the way? Just speculating.
    I think exactly what it is, Russ.

    Bees don't know what is good and what is bad for them.
    They just react to the short-term and long-term obvious needs best they can (bad choices lead to death).
    Same as people used to do (until the era of abstraction and virtualization began - we call it "information age" to make it sound better).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #192
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I think exactly what it is, Russ.

    Bees don't know what is good and what is bad for them.
    They just react to the short-term and long-term obvious needs best they can (bad choices lead to death).
    Same as people used to do (until the era of abstraction and virtualization began - we call it "information age" to make it sound better).
    IMO the propolise is the bees caulking gun. They collect it to "fix leaks" in the hive, air flow and humidity and temperature changes, Bees want stability to raise brood. Same as us if the rain or wind is coming in the kids bedroom we would fix it. Happens the tree sap is also anti microbial and anti fungal, so it works good for them. I would not over think it too much. I eat a lot of it BTW especially when cleaning Hive parts up. Likely it also works like sticky paper placed on floors in data centers and Hospitals to help remove "stuff" from the bottoms of our feet. There was not as many "perfect" cavities, 1000 years ago. the non perfect ones could be "retrofitted " with caulking to be more perfect. example a Skep it is basically a grass sieve, coat of Propolise and now an air tight hive. Also can be chewed out for more air and pasted back for winter. It is a very versatile building material for the bees.
    GG

  14. #193
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    IMO the propolise is the bees caulking gun. ...GG
    +1

    Like I said, the researchers are too eager in their seeking out the sexy subjects so that they can get more grants and push more paper and keep their name in circulation and create new business opportunities.
    This is one such subject.
    I don't approve such "gymnastics" (akin to the "small cell" schtaff).

    Just a natural "glue" with beneficial side-effects - nothing less, nothing more.
    The beneficial side-effects are worthy of appropriate applications - not a doubt.
    Bees are not intelligent.
    They are not aware of phyto-chemical compounds and their benefits.
    The bees are just plugging those darn, drafty holes best they can with the best available material they can find.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #194
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    I've wondered what impact insulated hives with only a bottom entrance might have on varroa. Heat conservation was the major goal, but what effect does maintaining a consistently higher humidity have on the colony? Derek Mitchell has another research article out which addresses this.

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rsif.2019.0048

    From the abstract:

    "It is highly likely that honeybees, in temperate climates and in their natural home, with much smaller thermal conductance and entrance, can achieve higher humidities more easily and more frequently than in man-made hives. As a consequence, it is possible that Varroa destructor, a parasite implicated in the spread of pathogenic viruses and colony collapse, which loses fecundity at absolute humidities of 4.3 kPa (approx. 30 gm−3) and above, is impacted by the more frequent occurrence of higher humidities in these low conductance, small entrance nests."

  16. #195
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    I've wondered what impact insulated hives with only a bottom entrance might have on varroa. Heat conservation was the major goal, but what effect does maintaining a consistently higher humidity have on the colony? Derek Mitchell has another research article out which addresses this.
    CLong:

    Thank you for the post. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you been able to find access to the full article without having to go through a pay wall?

    This may be common knowledge (and if it is I will apologize in advance), but if we take as a given that higher humidity reduces varroa fecundity, is it also safe to assume that colonies would prefer to maintain higher hive humidity values if given the means to do so?

    A quick search yielded the following page (advertising for a hive monitoring device) which states that, "During the brood rearing period median levels of humidity in the nest of a healthy strong colony is between 50% and 60%. It is rarely found to be below 40% and above 80%. On a daily basis this value is stable and not correlated to the ambient conditions in a strong colony, whereas in a weak colony it follows the pattern of ambient conditions. During the winter cluster the humidity and temperature patterns are closely correlated with the ambient conditions, with a 1-2 h lag caused by the hive inertia."

    https://www.arnia.co.uk/hive-humidity/

    Here is another interesting study that is posted at Honey Bee Suite:

    https://www.honeybeesuite.com/hive-t...e-vs-humidity/

    Thanks again for the information.

    Russ

  17. #196
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    With only a bottom entrance for ventilation it is essential that snow, ice, normal accumulations of dead bees etc., are not allowed to block the only source of air exchange.

    Usual snow conditions allow some air channels to form around a snowed in hive but freezing rain and hard drifted snow can effectively make them air tight.


    Bees defintely can suffocate.
    Frank

  18. #197
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Thank you for the post. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you been able to find access to the full article without having to go through a pay wall?
    Russ,

    I tried to find Derek Mitchell's article online - to no avail. I even went to the local library. No access there either. I think the only way to get it free is through a University library.

    I haven't had time the articles you linked. Thanks for posting them.

  19. #198
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    Default Re: clong 2018-2019 Treatment Free Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clong View Post
    I tried to find Derek Mitchell's article online - to no avail. I even went to the local library. No access there either.
    I had the same trouble. Maybe after it has been out for awhile they will make it public domain.

    Thanks again for your contributions.

    Russ

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