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  1. #381
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    .................
    It not a trait I am talking about as much as the conditions set up by your management. If the bees are capable of of making a cleansing flight, why would you wish them not to? Why go against a trait the leads to improved survival?
    Was reviewing some notes for whatever need....

    MSL,
    I must admit, I will need to change my tune a bit.
    Trying for uniformity in a bee collection is not a good idea.
    Variety is a better idea.

    Exactly because:
    If the bees are capable of of making a cleansing flight, why would you wish them not to? Why go against a trait the leads to improved survival?
    In this game of dice tossing, you never really know which exact trait will pull you through this particular winter.
    Sometimes it is better to stay put and wait it out for as long as possible (and hold your poop).
    Sometimes it is better to get out at each and every opportunity presented (and go ahead and poop, be it even every week).
    And so, the variety is the answer.
    Best to have as many combinations on hand as possible (even the most crappy ones - as it may appear at the moment; the crappy ones could very well be the ultimate survivors).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #382
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    On my way to the office I thought - I am not really a "weekend beekeeper" (ok beehaver, whatever.... details).
    I am once-a-month bee-owner.
    That would be a more accurate concept.

    After the Zombee butchering event, I never made it back yet.
    No clue what is there.
    The queen-less Zombees should have raised a new queen by now and my drone-laying scheme probably fell through.
    Too bad, but I was busy building an extractor and spinning honey.
    Can not be everywhere at once.
    + 1 I have some Hives I have been into 2 times the whole year. If I "needed" to be in every couple weeks I would eventually hit the time limit for growth. I cannot hire any one so I am at the point of "Having" as many bees as one person can care for in a couple weekends a month plus a few lunch hours. the more they drive them selves the better I like it and propagate them. I start spinning Sunday, pull supers Saturday. then prep for deer season, and winter. with pears ,peaches and apples to put up blended into the evenings.
    GG

  4. #383
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    + 1 I have some Hives I have been into 2 times the whole year. If I "needed" to be in every couple weeks I would eventually hit the time limit for growth. I cannot hire any one so I am at the point of "Having" as many bees as one person can care for in a couple weekends a month plus a few lunch hours. the more they drive them selves the better I like it and propagate them. I start spinning Sunday, pull supers Saturday. then prep for deer season, and winter. with pears ,peaches and apples to put up blended into the evenings.
    GG
    Haha, GG!

    Been putting up plums and peaches; just recently finished.
    Now I have buckets and pots with honey standing around the kitchen - hopefully, one day I will empty those into the jars.
    Meanwhile, I must go and pick some Macintosh apples - they are screaming at me.
    Last night I went and lifted my first potatoes for the season - tired of store-bought potatoes and done with that junk for the year.
    God, the fresh, home-grown taters, roasted in chicken drippings are delicious, to die for.
    20190904_220353.jpg

    Oh, and the school just started too.

    So, the low-maintenance style of bee-having is really a necessity for regular village folk, like myself.
    I am totally on board with the old time peasants - they had absolutely no time for those bees (save for the harvest time).
    Need for low-maintenance mode of operation, matching equipment, AND the low-maintenance bees is screaming at my face.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #384
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    So, the low-maintenance style of bee-having is really a necessity for regular village folk, like myself.
    I am totally on board with the old time peasants - they had absolutely no time for those bees (save for the harvest time).
    Need for low-maintenance mode of operation, matching equipment, AND the low-maintenance bees is screaming at my face.
    This I can absolutely identify with. Personally, it seems the distinction of providing appropriate management at the right time is a lifetime study.

  6. #385
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Only had time to feed few nucs.
    While there, looked at the Zombee-log.
    Interesting how they use the lower entrance in the mid-section, and largely ignore the upper entrance (only few guards are peeking out).

    20190907_185503.jpg

    I also got to think - why is it widely assumed that the late swarms are doomed?
    Why would bees even do it if they are doomed (swarm late)?
    Late swarming should be naturally selected out over the millennia bees are around.

    Well, looking at this small vertical log hive (30 liters) with thick wooden walls arranged as a narrow, vertical cavity..
    I think these guys do not need much honey at all to winter.
    They can totally store away enough to winter IF the late flow is good enough.
    Wintering in this log hive should be really, really efficient (as it has been showing how efficient is wintering in the Warre-formatted hives).

    I feel the idea of doomed late swarms is wrong.
    If good quality dwellings (small and efficient hollows for the small late swarms) are available and sufficient late flow is available - why are they doomed?
    Who said this?
    Did they ever test the theory properly (outside of a notorious Lang box, obviously)?
    Thinking back, the wild, unmanaged forests should have had plenty of housing options fitting the late swarms well.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-09-2019 at 11:27 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #386
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Talking of how much honey one needs...
    Two medium supers extracted looks like this on my table.

    20190908_101857.jpg

    Really, how much more honey one needs?
    This is more than enough to "pay the rent", few gifts, and enough for the household of five souls.
    There is much more honey still in the hives and I don't exactly care to extract more.
    Best is probably to keep the honey in the frames as-is and in the hives where it belongs.

    I could cut few select chunks just to try different honey samples (from the winter dead-outs).
    As far as generic summer wildflower honey goes, I already grew a little tired of it just from licking the utensils as I was filling the jars.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #387
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Hi Greg,

    re:I feel the idea of doomed late swarms is wrong.
    If good quality dwellings (small and efficient hollows for the small late swarms) are available and sufficient late flow is available - why are they doomed?
    Who said this?
    Did they ever test the theory properly (outside of a notorious Lang box, obviously)?
    Thinking back, the wild, unmanaged forests should have had plenty of housing options fitting the late swarms well.

    my opinion on the option the bees would deploy....
    My opinion is think back a few 1000 years, the late swarms are either last min, lets get out of here. Or more likely this late swarm looks for a queen less hive or dwindler, that they could overwhelm and steal a good provisioned up "place" to winter in. Think Tribe moves to new hunting grounds , goes "hmmmm me like" clubs the folks camped there moves in to their digs takes the stores and place and stays. So the late season queen failure happens, the late swarm is the go and save a few more for the next season attempt. I would wager if you watched the scouts of late swarms "marked bees" they probe weak hives to find an easily taken over home.
    It is a usurper swarm. I have had a time or 2 that my small dwindling hive gets a swarm to move in, never actually seen it but when the bees go from 2 or 3 frames of bees, to 20 frames something happened.
    It is a genetic manifestation of "habitat recovery" since by spring it is a mouse nest tree.

    GG
    Last edited by Gray Goose; 09-09-2019 at 01:34 PM.

  9. #388
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Two medium supers extracted looks like this on my table..
    Good haul, Greg. And because you know the beekeeper, you know what is not in the honey you collected.

  10. #389
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    It is a usurper swarm.
    I observed one of these in action last August. While ultimately unsuccessful (likely because of my involvement), the attempted usurpation was a queen who was superseded and subsequently took off with a softball-sized clump of bees in an attempt to take-over another colony.

    I did not know it at the time, but the colony that was besieged was in the throws of failing due to varroa infestation so it was ripe for take-over.

    I imagine there might be late swarms which issue due to beekeeper intervention as well (and maybe even exceptionally good Fall flows?), but I do think that usurpations are more common than we expect.

  11. #390
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Good haul, Greg. And because you know the beekeeper, you know what is not in the honey you collected.
    Absolutely.
    A good thing - all that honey is collected from the weeds around my area.
    The weeds that no one ever sprayed with anything (else there would be no weeds).
    That's why we like the weeds.
    Worth all the sticky hassle.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #391
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Hi Greg,

    ............It is a usurper swarm.

    GG
    It maybe so and not excluding it.

    However, I what I was more looking at - the energy efficiency of a natural log hive.
    The darn thing should be really energy efficient (especially after I will add a slab of XPS on the top - to emulate wooden mass, presently removed from above the hive).
    With that, a smallish cluster could make it.
    I am actually wishing these Zombees well.
    Maybe will feed them even, to compensate for the cool weather lately (not much income).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #392
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Absolutely.
    A good thing - all that honey is collected from the weeds around my area.
    The weeds that no one ever sprayed with anything (else there would be no weeds).
    That's why we like the weeds.
    Worth all the sticky hassle.
    Way to go, GregV. Keep up the good work...

  14. #393
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Here is an excellent read and sits with me very well.

    Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/i...=pocket-newtab

    In the TF beekeeping context - artificially propping the bees is equivalent to this idea of the article:
    “I’m concerned a lot of resources being spent on conservation are focused on trying to keep things exactly as they are, or revert to some imagined past,” says Chris Thomas (above).
    “As great as those aspirations might be, in the long run, they’re doomed.”
    Things are ever evolving and that is the only way forward.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #394
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Here is an excellent read and sits with me very well.

    Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/i...=pocket-newtab

    In the TF beekeeping context - artificially propping the bees is equivalent to this idea of the article:


    Things are ever evolving and that is the only way forward.
    To be sure, the extinction is ongoing as we speak and is a very bad thing.
    But trying to keep the status quo and trying to go back in time is not the way to fight it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #395
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/i...=pocket-newtab
    Interesting article, GregV. That was indeed a thought-provoking read. There were a few points he made that were note-worthy to me.

    It is notable to me that he holds the standard Darwinian line that, "Life is just what happens, and unfortunately, or fortunately, it has no ultimate purpose."

    And in almost the same breath makes mention of something that would be heresy in the Darwinian mantra- that of non-uniformitarianism:

    "Evolution is a process. It canít be too fast or too slow. It just happens. Under some circumstances itís faster and slower. By and large, the faster the environment changes, the faster evolution takes place, because some lineages are lost and some are able to diversify under the new conditions. Yes, there could be a rate of change that was so fast that evolutionary adaptations were incapable of keeping up with it. But there isnít any evidence at the moment that we are beyond some kind of tipping point beyond which evolution canít hack it any longer. Look at how fast things evolve resistance to pesticides, or how many species manage to colonize new parts of the world that we have disturbed."

    Otherwise, there were two salient points he made that stuck with me:

    "There has been no time in the history of life when species have been mixed up within and between continents at the rate thatís going on at the moment. The consequence of this human-caused transport is that hybrids must be coming into existence faster than ever before."

    "Most ecologists accept that various plants can stabilize the soil, purify water, or fix carbon from the atmosphere, and so on. If so, then why should these services not also be provided by so-called non-native species? Thereís no clear evidence that the old ones are better than new arrivals at doing these ecological jobs. The fact that new species are becoming established in our new, disturbed environmental conditions, suggests that non-native species could actually be better at these jobs. If you were to say, ďMy standpoint is that ecosystems are degraded by the loss of the former diversity,Ē then you might think that the ecosystem service has declined. But that argument doesnít follow once you take into account the balance in gains."

  17. #396
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Interesting article, GregV..........
    Yes.
    And what is very much relevant - EVERYONE on this exact forum are complicit in the processes described.
    Knowingly or not; most probably are not.

    Btw, about.... "Look at how fast things evolve resistance to pesticides...."
    This is very much the same thing as with the bees - a very quick adaptive reaction to the external pressure without much radical evolution involved.
    The most robust species have lots of flexibility built-in as is - this is how they are successful.

    This is much to review and relearn.
    The Darwinian theory is to be taken apart and reviewed using the modern tools.
    There could be not much of it left in the end.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #397
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    This is much to review and relearn.
    The Darwinian theory is to be taken apart and reviewed using the modern tools.
    There could be not much of it left in the end.
    From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation- it often seems that we conflate these terms.

  19. #398
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation - it often seems that we conflate these terms.
    +100!
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #399
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation- it often seems that we conflate these terms.
    Almost on cue, I thought the following commentary brought out some interesting points relative to this issue of phenotypical adaptation:

    https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...4491e7.1909&S=

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...14574519300355

  21. #400
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    Default Re: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    .......

    Otherwise, there were two salient points he made that stuck with me:

    "There has been no time in the history of life when species have been mixed up within and between continents at the rate that’s going on at the moment. The consequence of this human-caused transport is that hybrids must be coming into existence faster than ever before."
    If anything compatible did happen - those events could be connected to the land mass collisions (examples - North America/South America physically connecting; Asia/North America physically connecting).
    In those instances, the species relatively quickly mixed and migrated, and species extinctions/formations took place.

    By comparison, those linkages took many thousands of years or more to develop (maybe few milliseconds, geologically speaking).
    It took just about 100-200 years for the human-originating cross-globe migrations to occur and continue to occur (a micro-second or less, geologically speaking).

    So indeed, this never occurred in history before.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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