Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

249K views 3K replies 80 participants last post by  AR1 
#1 ·
Not to pollute the "cost of treatment" topic anymore, putting it here.....

Granted, large-scale commercial way is different from a small-scale hobby way and has different priorities and methods used accordingly - most of us get it and so just get this out of the way.
There are also intermediate cases and we also get it and let us just skip this diversion.

Did it occur to anyone that there is more than one way get your own bee products (better be "clean" if do make them for yourself), still have the producing bees annually, and yet not be following the commercial ways of doing so (which depend on recurring medication)?

So, the bee-die off is a part of my picture - I expect few colonies to die and I will appropriate their resources as I see fit.
The survivors will continue to be part of my hobby bee-selection process going forward.
The dead will have contributed to the human and bee nutrition programs.
Everything has purpose.

In the old time, people would have to kill few hives to get their honey.
Here and now, the current environment does the same easily.
In fact, I want few of my hives to die so I am not the one choosing who to rob and who to spare.

So, in fact, I would rather have 5-6 of my current 14 colonies die (preferably the largest colonies and preferably as quickly as possible so to leave behind most of the resources).
I would also prefer most of my small/medium colonies to survive and serve as the 2019 season start ups (cheaper to winter; likely healthier being late nucs; the spring development does not much matter of the fall colony size anyway).

As of the moment, I hardly harvested any honey (only few pounds for the kids).
The year has been bad.
However, just a couple of strong dead-outs (sounds weird, ah?) should easily provide more than enough honey and uncontaminated perga for our annual consumption and give-away in lieu of rent payments.

So here you have it, a "politically-incorrect", inconvenient, agitating statement - I want some of my bees die.

To be sure, I don't want ALL of my bees die, 50% survival would be fine with me and a good place to restart the next season.
Just letting the nature (including the mites) do the culling for me.
Hopefully, by Thanksgiving I get a few drop-offs - good riddance and some holiday crop for us.
:)
 
See less See more
#2 · (Edited)
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

well no one responded, so I will bite
I have no issue with the harvest of a stock as a whole as a management method. Swarm beekeeping (skep style) has a long and successful history. It wasn't so long a go some northern keepers would do the same and harvest every thing and restock with packages in the spring, still done to some extent in AK from what I read
.IE on the small scale At $15 a pound premium for "local TF honey" one could see the break even at 10# of honey (cost of a replacement nuc in the spring).

The question is then, Is it ethically raised. I would say no. Do that to any other live stock and you end up in jail for abuse.

You, as a beekeeper have made a lot of choices for your stock, the bees have had little say. You have chosen who was split, the type and volume of the hive, etc...
you cant turn around and say "its up to nature now".... its not. Their survival or failure is directly a result of your management (and past keepers, ie gentnics) and has nothing to do with nature

In fact, I want few of my hives to die so I am not the one choosing who to rob and who to spare.
Sounds like the meme saying " hunters should just go by meat made at the store were no animals were harmed"
Take responsibility for your livestock. Make the hard choices and follow threw.
 
#3 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

The program accepts that "Bond" selection shifts the genome. I find little evidence that Bond selection shifts bees in any favorable manner. Heritability in bees is low due to open, multiple mating. What is reported changing in Bond trials: Bees become runty, small nests with scrappy, hard to manage bees.

Bees in Bond selection are simply reverting to base, wild type --- quick to swarm, small, dinky colonies. Making up for extreme losses by frequent swarming. This should surprise no one --- evolution is "lazy" -- and if a pre-adaptation is available (in this case swarming tendency and nest size population) the pre-adaptation will be favored over any exotic and fragile mutation.
 
#6 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Well he has a plan. Which is that 50% of the hives have to die, and leave him lots of resources, and a thanksgiving crop. The other 50% have to live well, and prosper.
 
#7 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I think it is a self pep talk to absolve himself from any blame for bees dieing on his watch. As JWC points out our individual actions have infinitely small influence at the species level. We do however sometimes escape into delusions of grandeur!;)
 
#8 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I think it is a self pep talk to absolve himself from any blame for bees dieing on his watch. As JWC points out our individual actions have infinitely small influence at the species level. We do however sometimes escape into delusions of grandeur!;)
Our individual actions can make a difference at the population level which is what OP is going for. However the way he plans to go about doing so seems dubious. I don't think he can depend on an acceptable yearly loss. I have witnessed an apiary of 10 hives go to 0 over the course of a month due to untreated mites.
 
#546 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

In my area, if the bees "die off" I better get those combs fast or small hive beetles will have ruined everything.
If the bees die during the winter or fall the cold will actually preserve the comb, and in Spring you could put these dead colonies onto the surviving colonies.

Here in North Carolina the summers are our longest dearth and so could be actually harder on the bees than winter. I don't disturb the bees during the summer dearth because I have noticed that it stresses the bees to death. I will feed gallons of thick sugar syrup afterwards if I ever do disturb a colony in summer (curiosity on how the bees go through dearth).

But where GergV lives it seems that Winter would be his most losses during the year from living in Wisconsin with harsh winters. So his plan could work out well for him. lol
 
#10 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Greg - on another thread (https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350221-Raise-bees-indoors-over-winter) you're talking about pulling out all the stops to maximise the over-wintering survival chances of colonies so small that they wouldn't normally survive without such assistance - and yet in this thread you're talking about 'letting Nature take it's course', to the point of allowing colonies to die without lifting a hand to help them. Are there not two opposing philosophies at work here ? LJ
 
#12 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Greg - on another thread (https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350221-Raise-bees-indoors-over-winter) you're talking about pulling out all the stops to maximise the over-wintering survival chances of colonies so small that they wouldn't normally survive without such assistance - and yet in this thread you're talking about 'letting Nature take it's course', to the point of allowing colonies to die without lifting a hand to help them. Are there not two opposing philosophies at work here ? LJ
Trying to save those weaklings that will die without my interference.
I hope some of these are actually worth keeping long-term (only hope, don't know for sure).
They will have their own opportunity to live or die the next year.

Strong colonies, on the other hand, are having ALL the tools and resources at their disposal (like I said - I left all the resources to them and letting them organize their own wintering they see fit).
These better be able to fend for themselves.
I provide them with excellent quarters, excellent remote, clean pastures, and then I am out of the picture.
I don't care (already spend too much time on this hobby).

You see, I want these working dogs:
Mammal Dog Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed

Dog Mammal Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed


But I don't want these toy dogs:
Mammal Dog Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae

Dog Mammal Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed


Issue with my bees is that I don't know what I got on my hands right now.
All my bees are open-mated or randomly caught swarms - this is what I do.
I have hopeful expectations of some queens.
The other queens I hope just die off rather quickly and not waste the resources they got.
But I don't know which are which for sure - clearly, these are not dogs.

I am not going get into issues of "proper selection", "proper pet care", "proper animal care", "invasive vs. native", what-have-you...
Sure, if you have time, resources, and inclination - go for the "proper things".
I got a job to do here (keep my servers and databases running - what feeds me and the family).
 
#11 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I dont think it is so noble or effective. Welcoming the death of some colonies to improve the others is not necessary. If one cares so much about the local populations development the selection process can take place much earlier and avoid additional problems created by actually allowing the colony to collapse: give the queen the hive tool test.

I am not at all squeamish about harvesting animals or putting them out of suffering or neutering them or dehorning them etc., I dont quite buy the story that someone is doing such wonders for so called improving a strain and meanwhile encouraging the others to die if that is not a necessity of the process. If you take charge of their situation, have the courage to make the tough decisions.

Sometimes I think we fool ourselves about why we really are doing what we do.

Edit: just read LJ's previous post; Yes...hmmm.....
 
#13 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Sure, if you have time, resources, and inclination - go for the "proper things".
I got a job to do here (keep my servers and databases running - what feeds me and the family).
taking on more then you can handle is no excuse for livestock abuse

Trying to save those weaklings that will die without my interference
now I am lost... those weaklings are the ones that need to go, just like the skep keeper of old. shake them out, take what they got, move on... they are going to (likly) be useless dinks come spring.

As an unit, an apiary dies with out human interference.

You don't get working dogs by catching a bunch of random dogs on the street, and penning them up in your yard and seeing what happens. You don't breed working dogs by letting a ***** in heat roam free in the neighborhood... sure you may get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor
 
#201 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

taking on more then you can handle is no excuse for livestock abuse



now I am lost... those weaklings are the ones that need to go, just like the skep keeper of old. shake them out, take what they got, move on... they are going to (likly) be useless dinks come spring.

As an unit, an apiary dies with out human interference.

You don't get working dogs by catching a bunch of random dogs on the street, and penning them up in your yard and seeing what happens. You don't breed working dogs by letting a ***** in heat roam free in the neighborhood... sure you may get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor
MSL Just offering my 2Cents as well. as a discussion, not a argument. livestock abuse is not a reasonable description for "A swarm caught and left alone" doing nothing the swarm finds a "cavity" and is left alone, or dies on the limb. Giving them a Hive and leaving them alone is not livestock abuse. As they water and feed themselves, not sure what you are driving at, If you mean not applying drugs for the Mites as abuse I would tend to disagree.

The working dogs,, again is not an Apples to Apples comparison. As "normally" queens fly several Miles, "Sealey has confirmed well mated queens at 15 miles from the drone source" the queen is going to "Rome around until mated" and need 18 or so males, not sure a dog needs the same. Very few of us can "control the DCA" so some randomness is going to happen, allowing the survivors to survive, is somewhat what is happening in the Woods. Some crosses just do not make it, cows , horses, cats and dogs, are all in the same boat.

We all have the way we would do the keeping. I am somewhat in the same boat as JohnO, Stay with in the law and try not to harm others. I know of folks in the north that shake the bees out on the snow and take all the honey, so to some that would be abuse , to some a waste, to some the way...it has always been done.

GregV you some what tossed an issue out and Some may think "things" about your keeping style. I presume you have a think skin and a sense of humor or you would have done it different. I have a similar "gene pool" in My area. I have added 4-6 queens a year to my Apairy. Allowing them to swarm off in the second year., allowing lots of drone comb. In 5 years I do see an impact. I also "help" newbie keepers out with these queens, so now there are several swarms and queens out in the area that "ARE" the kind I like. If the genes keep improving, the swarms in my area should settle into a surviving mode. So It seems in time the DCA can be shifted.
GG
 
#15 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I don't agree with most of the points Greg made in the first post, but one struck close to home. I was pondering next year's splits the other day. Last year around this time I had several boxes of drawn frames with honey and pollen, from two of the hives that died, in storage. Those resources made creating strong early splits possible. This year, nothing yet so the splits will have to draw their own comb and be fed much more heavily. I do not want any of the hives to die, but if they do, their resources will be used to create new hives in the Spring. Such is the circle of life.
 
#16 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Did it occur that you don't have any drawn combs to make splits with from hives that died, cos no hives died. Hence, no need to make splits to make up numbers, you already have the numbers?

Quite the conundrum
 
#17 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

JW, why not then allow some colonies grow up an extra box high to produce ten extra drawn frames for splits next spring?

Next summer (barring the return of EFB) I will do some splits that I will feed to produce drawn comb since I destroyed quite a bit of equipment in the last year. Those colonies will produce no honey but contribute to the apiary. I wont mind at all making the decision of which queens will get the nod and which ones get the hive tool test next fall.
 
#18 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I am still in the growth phase of my apiary, although I intend on getting a decent honey harvest next year. The seven full-sized hives are all in 10 frame double deeps. The nine nucs are in 5 frame medium over deep or deep over deep boxes. My goal is 20 hives in the backyard, make 20 nucs to sell, and start populating an outyard. Trick will be to get the bees started in Jan. and manage brood boxes to get the additional deep frames I need drawn out early. This worked for me last year as I went from 3 survivors to my current 16. Lost over a dozen splits along the way to mostly dragonfly predation of the queens. Darn things were camped out in the beeyard!
 
  • Like
Reactions: CrazyIvan865
#20 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

If we were to observe apes keeping bees, then we'd consider this activity to be part of the natural evolutionary process. But what are we - if not an example of a higher ape ? I think it's somewhat delusionary to consider homo sapiens as being outside of, and thus detached from, the evolutionary dynamic ...
LJ
 
#500 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

... I think it's somewhat delusionary to consider homo sapiens as being outside of, and thus detached from, the evolutionary dynamic ...
LJ
This is an excellent point I have made several times. There is nothing "unnatural" about human activities, if you take a naturalistic view of things.

This also takes away the ideas of right or wrong, good or evil. Stuff just is. (If you take a strictly naturalistic view of things).

And of course, any purpose other than survival seems meaningless, and survival just is, so it is meaningless as well.

It doesn't seem possible for humans to live that way of course. But spiders and cats manage it just fine.
 
#22 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Well, no Thanksgiving honey for the landlords.
OK, pulled a couple of side frames to C&S for the kids.

Still have 13 units.
Last year by now I had at least a couple of "absconds" and had plenty of honey to go around.
 
#23 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Greg, how disappointing. All your bees are still alive. ;) At least you won't need all those frames for splits to make up for winter losses. At least not yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CrazyIvan865
#24 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Greg, how disappointing. All your bees are still alive. ;) At least you won't need all those frames for splits to make up for winter losses. At least not yet.
Hope for some XMas honey still.
With the current year's failed goldenrod crop (due to rain), only way to get more honey now is from few deadouts.

If I have about 6-7 units left in the spring, there'd be awesome as for me - plenty of spare equipment to reuse again and plenty of bees as a starting base too.
Too many bees - will need to build more stuff.
Too few bees - will have a slow start.
 
#25 ·
#26 · (Edited)
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

you might find the last part of this interesting , Alaskan bee management. Post flow take every thing, shake out on to foundation and feed so they make you drawn comb for next year, then do them in
http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2014-07.pdf
Some do it even here, in my vicinity.
Last year they were offering their bees for taking in early winter (shaken bees only).
They kept the honey and equipment.
Unsure if anyone took the bees in.
I could have taken them in and put on some straight, dry sugar.
Well, it was way too late for such games; I just was not up to it as those were just commercial bees and likely dead out anyway.

Anyways, what they did was, obviously, an after-thought.
You plan for such moves ahead of time and find home for the unwanted bees ahead of time (OR just kill them and make no fuss then, if doing it this way).

Well, this is not my way.
I am not here for straight honey.

You see, I do this for some family food and for some selection (and possible bee selling).
So moderate rate of die off is good for me (lets me both harvest my crop and also weeds out stock I do not want).
If you are an aggressive splitter, not much crop can be taken OFF any one colony.
BUT if any of those colonies do die - then you get to harvest.
So basically, you expand as much as you can and then hope that less than worthy queens will go under (the sooner they tank, the better for you - better harvest).

IF ALL my bees die - not good either, obviously.
IF ALL my bees live - it would be OK for future bee sales, but no honey for me (but not a realistic case for now anyway).
 
#27 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

.....I'm confused, I freely admit it, as well as suffering from a serious case of information overload. lol
All those hives and you didnt get any honey.

My one 'toy' sized hive gave me 5 deep frames of honey that were double thick in mid summer- just in time for Xmas presents as well as 3 that went into the freezer just in case they needed them for later.
In fall, I did return 2 of these even though they had also built out and filled another 8 single width deeps, half of which they didnt use over winter so these are sitting at the far end of the long hive with a follower board between the two. The other one is still sitting in the freezer cos it is damaged. It will get returned to them in time for this winter- reason, it was removed after our cut off time that is there to make sure it doesnt have a toxic honey due to a native plant.(short explanation), so may not be safe for people to eat but okay for bees.

Apparently, last summer was not a good year. The person who has been doing my AFB checks was surprised at the amount of honey in the hive this spring and that I had not had to feed..... and that I had got anything off them- he hadnt harvested anything at all from all of his hives, but then, he also did some serious amount of splits to increase numbers.

The reason I had so many double fat combs,was because on one inspection, I found that Queen stalking on the third frame from the end along with her two minders. I had noticed through the window that something was not right because the last frame was only a 1/4 built out but already filled with nectar, the next two in were half built and 3/4 and also filled with nectar-hive was honey bound/nectar bound.
I decided that it was easier for the bees to continue to build out what they already had than make new comb on new frames, so I widened the gaps between all the honey frames.
They fattened those combs as well as building out the ones I put in the brood nest....new hive, no ready made frames of comb available.
I could do this because I have a long hive, its probably not possible with a lang.

Before I even got the hive, I spent quite a bit of time planting fruit trees, taking note of flowering times as well as different shrubs and annuals.
Hive density and lack of forage have come up as possible major stress factors. I'm lucky in that I also have a number of different 'wild' areas nearby.

While I do understand the reasoning behind allowing weaker hives to die, in the expectation that this will help ensure better quality hives/genetics, it isnt something I can do, due to inexperience, only one hive and the the probability of a small gene pool. I just have to work with what I've got and hope that good forage/nutrition will help in the long term, along with my SC experiment.
 
#28 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

.....I'm confused, I freely admit it, as well as suffering from a serious case of information overload. lol
All those hives and you didnt get any honey.

My one 'toy' sized hive gave me 5 deep frames of honey that were double thick in mid summer-...
Look:
1)I am a very aggressive splitter - my 2 survivors from last winter became 7 hives (6 strong and 1 smallish nuc; there were more, some nucs failed).
2)In addition I caught few swarms (very late) and made more side-projects nucs - so I was up to 14 units in September (13 units now)
3)Also lost a swarm, oh well.

Now, IF I wanted to I could have had only 4-5 very big units and made enough honey to go around.
But this also means I only had 4-5 queens on hand and low redundancy and not much selection going (the most important project for now).

In short:
* if you expand a lot, you do not get much honey if any
* you keep them big and few in counts, you get more honey, but fewer queens

So, I do work on expansion-side.
Do you see that?
 
#31 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

I wasnt having a go at you.
Everyone has their own goals and reasons and as I am learning, they also have their own strategies, that would never have occurred to me.
The more we share, the more we all learn.
Not a problem here.
I know you are not after me, personally.

It is the beekeeping model that I am trying out looks as if illogical.
I get it.

To be sure, there is always honey on my table and bee bread in a fridge.
A non-issue here.
But I also need some extra honey to gift to those nice people who let me keep my bees on their properties.
My model totally depends on several small, redundant yards - a part of the equation and some expense at that.
So I do need some extra harvest somehow (preferably around the holidays :) ).
 
#33 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Just out of interest Greg, is it royal jelly, or stored pollen you are harvesting. If RJ, what is your harvesting method?
I harvest fermented pollen (aka bee bread, aka perga).
Last summer I also harvested some drone brood via C&S (from a captured commercial bee swarm - low value drone but for food usage).

No RJ.
 
#34 ·
Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Well, per my notes at about this time in December 2017 I was down to 4 hopeful colonies (one more was still alive but on its way out).
Out of those 4 colonies in December, 2 made it all way.
This was starting with 11 colonies in September of 2017 (success rate - 2 out of 11).

As of yesterday, I still have 12 colonies of various shapes and sizes (starting with 14 in September).
Hmm. OK.

Lost another tiny, queen-holding nucleus (regardless of the heater).
This is somewhat a shame as lost both of my "Russian" queens now.

In the future I should not be making these nucs out of commercial bee swarms.
Not again. Should know better.
Waste of time and resources if trying to plug in queen of any value into these commercial swarm bees.
Best just leave those commercial swarms in to the winter as-is and, hopefully, harvest some honey and comb from them with any luck.
A quarantine, of sorts.
 
#36 ·
Will see, Russ.
The next checkpoint - about XMas.
Anything I do not need, should drop off by about then and would be good riddance.

Of course, last year I lost two very good colonies in late February, just needed another month to go.
That particular kind of a loss is painful. Was some good material there.
 
Top